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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257218 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 16:28 - Nov 3 with 4223 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 16:04 - Nov 3 by eireblue

Well done on not answering the question again.

And telling us all, once again, what you wouldn’t do, and what Israel shouldn’t do, as you have done on numerous threads

So back to the actual question.

How do you stop Hamas from launching more attacks from an even stronger position than they were in on the 6th of October.

You wake up on the morning of the 8th and…..


You realise your whole strategy has failed.
Reign back on illegal settlements.
Negotiate hostage release.
Make proper targeted strikes on Hamas bigwigs in the long run.
Create a state or two in which Palestinians have genuine hope and a reason to live and starve the extremists of oxygen.

Just off the top of my head after a hard day's work.

What about you?
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 18:50]

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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How many Palestinian or Israeli lives are sufficient? on 16:34 - Nov 3 with 4200 viewsBuhrer

How many Palestinian or Israeli lives are sufficient? on 16:16 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies

It's a reasonable response if you want to draw up some scale of terrorist activity where drilling through someone's kneecaps with a Black and Decker is acceptable but stabbing a baby is not. You could scale it all the way back to something like the French legal justification of crime passionnel and let all terrorists of after the event by accepting their actions in the light of injustices against a group of people of whom they are one. In my opinion that makes a mockery of the rule of law. If a polity has been damaged by the actions of an individual then it is only right that the individual must suffer whatever hard treatment the ruling body judges applicable.

By the way, the entire crowd were not raped and murdered, some were just taken hostage. But I take your point even if your analogy is a bit frayed at the edges.


Thanks, and I will take your response though from here the ethics look slightly frayed. Who has suggested torturing adults is acceptable? It is grotesque. Just doesn't seem to me very comparable to Hamas terrifying actions (just kidnapped ffs) or stated aims;

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'

Sinn Feins main goal is the unification of Ireland, not jihadical genocide Some people you can reach, some you can't.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 16:49 - Nov 3 with 4168 viewspositivity

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 16:28 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave

You realise your whole strategy has failed.
Reign back on illegal settlements.
Negotiate hostage release.
Make proper targeted strikes on Hamas bigwigs in the long run.
Create a state or two in which Palestinians have genuine hope and a reason to live and starve the extremists of oxygen.

Just off the top of my head after a hard day's work.

What about you?
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 18:50]


can't disagree with most of that, but interested in the last one, which may have been autocorrect mangled... want to have another shot at it?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:04 - Nov 3 with 4148 viewseireblue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 16:28 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave

You realise your whole strategy has failed.
Reign back on illegal settlements.
Negotiate hostage release.
Make proper targeted strikes on Hamas bigwigs in the long run.
Create a state or two in which Palestinians have genuine hope and a reason to live and starve the extremists of oxygen.

Just off the top of my head after a hard day's work.

What about you?
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 18:50]


None of those stop Hamas breaking out and killing more people.

Settlements are problem for the West Bank. Not sure Hamas is too bothered about trying to support Fatah, I believe they killed some Fatah people to gain control of Gaza.

Israel has already been killing Hamas bigwigs, given the opportunity, they get replaced.

Hamas has taken prisons in the past, then negotiated a release, and then 7th Oct happened.
So negotiations for prison release doesn’t stop Hamas killing people in the future.

How does giving peaceful Palestinians hope, stop Hamas, who tend not to be too kind to dissenters in Gaza, of deciding to kill more people next Tuesday?
It doesn’t.

Sorry you are tired, but the question wasn’t directed at you, but you decided to answer, maybe if you are a bit tired, you could take a rest from this whole topic for a while.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:21 - Nov 3 with 4101 viewsjayessess

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:04 - Nov 3 by eireblue

None of those stop Hamas breaking out and killing more people.

Settlements are problem for the West Bank. Not sure Hamas is too bothered about trying to support Fatah, I believe they killed some Fatah people to gain control of Gaza.

Israel has already been killing Hamas bigwigs, given the opportunity, they get replaced.

Hamas has taken prisons in the past, then negotiated a release, and then 7th Oct happened.
So negotiations for prison release doesn’t stop Hamas killing people in the future.

How does giving peaceful Palestinians hope, stop Hamas, who tend not to be too kind to dissenters in Gaza, of deciding to kill more people next Tuesday?
It doesn’t.

Sorry you are tired, but the question wasn’t directed at you, but you decided to answer, maybe if you are a bit tired, you could take a rest from this whole topic for a while.


Isn't part of the issue here that we tend to ask questions that inadvertently make assumptions about who matters?

"What would you do if you were Israel?"
"What would you want done if you were a citizen of Israel living in proximity to Hamas?"

Those questions basically command you to see like the Israeli state, not as a neutral, certainly not as a Palestinian. If you do that, well, what conclusions do you reach? Your means are military, so you apply military solutions, more repression is almost always going to be the answer you come up with.

It's not a mode of questioning that gets you any closer to a sustainable peace, which involves both parties.

Blog: What Now? Taking a Look at Life in League One

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:24 - Nov 3 with 4082 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 16:28 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave

You realise your whole strategy has failed.
Reign back on illegal settlements.
Negotiate hostage release.
Make proper targeted strikes on Hamas bigwigs in the long run.
Create a state or two in which Palestinians have genuine hope and a reason to live and starve the extremists of oxygen.

Just off the top of my head after a hard day's work.

What about you?
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 18:50]


So pretty much what was on offer at Camp David and Oslo?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:45 - Nov 3 with 4045 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:21 - Nov 3 by jayessess

Isn't part of the issue here that we tend to ask questions that inadvertently make assumptions about who matters?

"What would you do if you were Israel?"
"What would you want done if you were a citizen of Israel living in proximity to Hamas?"

Those questions basically command you to see like the Israeli state, not as a neutral, certainly not as a Palestinian. If you do that, well, what conclusions do you reach? Your means are military, so you apply military solutions, more repression is almost always going to be the answer you come up with.

It's not a mode of questioning that gets you any closer to a sustainable peace, which involves both parties.


While I definitely see your point, the current focus of this conflict is squarely on how Israel is behaving, particularly as the perceived holder of power, so I think it's fair to put ourselves in their shoes and ask what should they do differently, personally. doing so isn't to ignore that their are other solutions which Israel may not currently care for, or indeed other parties involved.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:06 - Nov 3 with 3995 viewsDJR

From the Guardian: the video is a hard watch.

Salman al-Bashir, a journalist working for the Palestinian Authority’s TV channel, tore off his protective gear while reporting live on air after learning of the death of his colleague, Mohammed Abu Hatab.

Bashir delivered an emotional report from outside the hospital where Hatab and his family were pronounced dead. The Palestinian news anchor in the studio could be seen crying as Bashir said journalists were not being protected and the protective vests and helmets labelled ‘press’ were “merely a slogan”.

Bashir said Hatab had been alive only 30 minutes before, adding that journalists reporting from Gaza were “victims live on television”.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 18:14 - Nov 3 with 3978 viewsDJR

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:45 - Nov 3 by giant_stow

While I definitely see your point, the current focus of this conflict is squarely on how Israel is behaving, particularly as the perceived holder of power, so I think it's fair to put ourselves in their shoes and ask what should they do differently, personally. doing so isn't to ignore that their are other solutions which Israel may not currently care for, or indeed other parties involved.


I made the point in an earlier post that I am not sure the US or UK would have acted differently were it in Israel's position.

Perhaps the current conflict just brings home the point that the West can't really claim the high ground in terms of international law or morality when it comes to many of the conflicts it has got involved in recent decades.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 18:29]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:23 - Nov 3 with 3953 viewsDJR

500,000 civilians trapped in Gaza City: a siege within a siege.

https://www.oxfam.org.uk/media/press-releases/half-a-million-civilians-caught-in
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 18:24 - Nov 3 with 3934 viewsjayessess

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:45 - Nov 3 by giant_stow

While I definitely see your point, the current focus of this conflict is squarely on how Israel is behaving, particularly as the perceived holder of power, so I think it's fair to put ourselves in their shoes and ask what should they do differently, personally. doing so isn't to ignore that their are other solutions which Israel may not currently care for, or indeed other parties involved.


But I guess my uncertainty with that, is that it's not a reversible proposition?

As (mostly) people in the UK, many of us are used to living in a stable, sovereign nation state with a military and borders. We're well used to asking questions and having feelings about how our nation state should keep us safe. It's very easy for that to become the only way we think about these things.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 18:25]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:26 - Nov 3 with 3919 viewsDJR

As this thread has touched on the Israel/Palestine issue more generally, here is a good explanation in maps.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567
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How many Palestinian or Israeli lives are sufficient? on 18:31 - Nov 3 with 3881 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian or Israeli lives are sufficient? on 16:34 - Nov 3 by Buhrer

Thanks, and I will take your response though from here the ethics look slightly frayed. Who has suggested torturing adults is acceptable? It is grotesque. Just doesn't seem to me very comparable to Hamas terrifying actions (just kidnapped ffs) or stated aims;

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'

Sinn Feins main goal is the unification of Ireland, not jihadical genocide Some people you can reach, some you can't.


The theology is, as I find most theology to be, hopeless at giving us any hope. However, not all Muslims are Jihadists (all though I think it is more difficult to be a lapsed Muslim than, say, a lapsed Catholic) and it is, I think, generally accepted that most Muslim nations sign up to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in the spirit in which it was drafted. Which brings us back to collective responsibility and the United Nations position on the proportionality or otherwise of the Israeli Defence Force response to the atrocity. I have just seen the latest from Netanyahu https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67305304 @16:03

'Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said there would be no temporary ceasefire with Hamas in Gaza until Israeli hostages are released...He was speaking after US Secretary of State Antony Blinken reiterated US calls for "humanitarian pauses" to help allow aid into the besieged Gaza Strip'

I expect this will go down badly with many United Nations member states (already this week Chile, Bolivia and Colombia have severed diplomatic ties with Israel or recalled ambassadors ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-67281584 ) so a danger of partial isolation and/or dissatisfaction amongst Western powers for causing a split in otherwise aligned international relations is not going to help the Israeli population or the hostages now or in the near future. And refusing a temporary caesefire and not talking to Hamas is not going to bring the thousands of Palestinians and Israeli lives lost back. I can't reference this because I only fleeting caught the snippet of BBC radio news that asked about support for Hamas amongst the general Palestinian population, and how it has been rising since the Israeli military action but I can find Associated Press and other articles through Google that shows it as much higher than I realised (mid 40%s) and rising in recent months. Surely this can only be driven by desperation, by a feeling that things will only get worse at they stood ( https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da0 ) It is thoroughly depressing but the politicians have to deal with matters as they stand, not as they would like them to be.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 18:52 - Nov 3 with 3846 viewseireblue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:21 - Nov 3 by jayessess

Isn't part of the issue here that we tend to ask questions that inadvertently make assumptions about who matters?

"What would you do if you were Israel?"
"What would you want done if you were a citizen of Israel living in proximity to Hamas?"

Those questions basically command you to see like the Israeli state, not as a neutral, certainly not as a Palestinian. If you do that, well, what conclusions do you reach? Your means are military, so you apply military solutions, more repression is almost always going to be the answer you come up with.

It's not a mode of questioning that gets you any closer to a sustainable peace, which involves both parties.


If you notice, my question wasn’t framed as what should Israel do.

Lots of people are talking about what Israel should or shouldn’t do.

Let’s get the problem correct, Hamas is the issue.

At any point in the last 20 years, Hamas could have said, you know what, we could take the 100’s of millions of dollars we get from Iran, every year, and all the taxes, extortion that we impose in Gaza, and actually try and make life a bit better for Palestinians.

But no, they’re decided not to do that.

So there are about 30,000 terrorists, that will happily kill people, and have proven they can do it, and they were in a stronger position on the 8th.

How do you stop Hamas killing more people.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 18:54 - Nov 3 with 3828 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:04 - Nov 3 by eireblue

None of those stop Hamas breaking out and killing more people.

Settlements are problem for the West Bank. Not sure Hamas is too bothered about trying to support Fatah, I believe they killed some Fatah people to gain control of Gaza.

Israel has already been killing Hamas bigwigs, given the opportunity, they get replaced.

Hamas has taken prisons in the past, then negotiated a release, and then 7th Oct happened.
So negotiations for prison release doesn’t stop Hamas killing people in the future.

How does giving peaceful Palestinians hope, stop Hamas, who tend not to be too kind to dissenters in Gaza, of deciding to kill more people next Tuesday?
It doesn’t.

Sorry you are tired, but the question wasn’t directed at you, but you decided to answer, maybe if you are a bit tired, you could take a rest from this whole topic for a while.


You've gone back to my original point now which is to fix your fence and use actual people to monitor it while you implement the rest of my manifesto. The end point being that people with hope that aren't seeing there children getting killed won't support the extremists.

You're a bit grumpy aren't you!!

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 18:55 - Nov 3 with 3821 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 16:49 - Nov 3 by positivity

can't disagree with most of that, but interested in the last one, which may have been autocorrect mangled... want to have another shot at it?


Sorry...the word State got lost.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

1
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 19:01 - Nov 3 with 3805 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 17:24 - Nov 3 by GlasgowBlue

So pretty much what was on offer at Camp David and Oslo?


I have literally no idea...beyond my pay grade.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:04 - Nov 3 with 3788 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:06 - Nov 3 by DJR

From the Guardian: the video is a hard watch.

Salman al-Bashir, a journalist working for the Palestinian Authority’s TV channel, tore off his protective gear while reporting live on air after learning of the death of his colleague, Mohammed Abu Hatab.

Bashir delivered an emotional report from outside the hospital where Hatab and his family were pronounced dead. The Palestinian news anchor in the studio could be seen crying as Bashir said journalists were not being protected and the protective vests and helmets labelled ‘press’ were “merely a slogan”.

Bashir said Hatab had been alive only 30 minutes before, adding that journalists reporting from Gaza were “victims live on television”.



Raw!

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 19:05 - Nov 3 with 3783 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 18:14 - Nov 3 by DJR

I made the point in an earlier post that I am not sure the US or UK would have acted differently were it in Israel's position.

Perhaps the current conflict just brings home the point that the West can't really claim the high ground in terms of international law or morality when it comes to many of the conflicts it has got involved in recent decades.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 18:29]


I think we should give the women a shot!! We are led by cock wavers.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 19:32 - Nov 3 with 3729 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 19:01 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave

I have literally no idea...beyond my pay grade.


With the greatest respect, do you not think it would be prudent to familiarise yourself with previous attempts at solving this long standing conflict when coming up with your own ideas at what would constitute a basis for peace?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:20 - Nov 3 with 3660 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/03/israel-deports-thousands-of-strand

'Thousands of Palestinian workers from Gaza who were stranded in Israel when war broke out last month have been deported back to the war-torn strip after being expelled by the Israeli government.
A Guardian reporter in Rafah, on the southern edge of the strip, saw a steady stream of men of all ages with no phones, money or identity cards enter the territory on Friday morning via the Kerem Shalom crossing for commercial goods, having walked about 2km from the Israeli side of the border.'


'An unknown number of these workers were swept up in raids across Israel in the days after 7 October and imprisoned under the principle of administrative detention, which allows the arrest of suspects without charge or access to the evidence against them on the grounds that they may break the law in future.
Many have alleged they were tortured or otherwise mistreated in military prison facilities over the last few weeks. The International Committee of the Red Cross said it was repeatedly denied access to the arrested workers, who were held as “enemy non-combatants”.'

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 20:45 - Nov 3 with 3626 viewsEireannach_gorm

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 18:52 - Nov 3 by eireblue

If you notice, my question wasn’t framed as what should Israel do.

Lots of people are talking about what Israel should or shouldn’t do.

Let’s get the problem correct, Hamas is the issue.

At any point in the last 20 years, Hamas could have said, you know what, we could take the 100’s of millions of dollars we get from Iran, every year, and all the taxes, extortion that we impose in Gaza, and actually try and make life a bit better for Palestinians.

But no, they’re decided not to do that.

So there are about 30,000 terrorists, that will happily kill people, and have proven they can do it, and they were in a stronger position on the 8th.

How do you stop Hamas killing more people.


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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:08 - Nov 3 with 3556 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

25m ago21.42 GMT

Robert Tait

Leftwing Democrats in Congress have invoked a landmark law barring assistance to security forces of governments deemed guilty of human rights abuses to challenge the Biden administration’s emergency military aid program for Israel.

Members of the Democratic party’s progressive wing say the $14.3bn package pledged by the White House after the 7 October attack by Hamas that killed more than 1,400 Israelis breaches the Leahy Act because Israel’s retaliatory assault on Gaza has overwhelmingly harmed civilians. An estimated 9,000 people have been killed in Gaza so far, among them 3,700 children, according to the Gaza health ministry, run by Hamas.

The act, sponsored by the former Democratic senator Patrick Leahy and passed in 1997, prohibits the US defence and state departments from rendering security assistance to foreign governments facing credible accusations of rights abuses. The law was originally designed only to refer to narcotics assistance, but was later expanded, with amendments covering assistance from both state department and Pentagon budgets.

Proponents of applying the act to Israel point to the rising death toll in Gaza from military strikes on the territory, the displacement of more than 1 million people from their homes and a surging humanitarian crisis after Israeli authorities cut water, food, fuel and electricity supplies.

“I am very concerned that our taxpayer dollars may be used for violations of human rights,” said the congressman Andre Carson of Indiana in an email to the Guardian, in which he accused Israel of “war crimes”, citing this week’s deadly bombing of the Jabalia refugee camp and the Israeli Defense Forces’ (IDF) alleged use of white phosphorus.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 00:08 - Nov 4 with 3478 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

They destroy neighbourhoods and say but someone from Hamas was there, destroy ambulances...Hamas was in there. This is what happens when you declare people are less than human. It is a disgrace and brings shame on us all.

[Post edited 4 Nov 2023 0:15]

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:34 - Nov 5 with 3298 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

All of them!

Benjamin Netanyahu has sought on social media to distance himself from comments by a minister in his government that dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza is “one of the possibilities” and that the Palestinian population can “go to Ireland or deserts”.

Heritage minister Amichai Eliyahu of the Otzma Yehudit party is quoted by the Times of Israel as saying in an interview with Radio Kol Berama that the Palestinian people “can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves,” adding that those who wave a Palestinian or Hamas flag “shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth.”

It quotes him saying that dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip “is one of the possibilities”, and that humanitarian aid to the population should be restricted, saying “we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid. There is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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