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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257303 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:45 - Nov 6 with 3150 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:31 - Nov 6 by Ryorry

Hamas has the power to stop - could commence by releasing the hostages instead of demanding the release of hundreds of terrorists with the capacity to inflict further attacks on Israel as a swap for the innocent civilians they’re holding.


One point here, and I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know. Without fair and open trial, how do you know Palestinians being held by Israel, are 'terrorists'?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:45 - Nov 6 with 3142 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:31 - Nov 6 by Ryorry

Hamas has the power to stop - could commence by releasing the hostages instead of demanding the release of hundreds of terrorists with the capacity to inflict further attacks on Israel as a swap for the innocent civilians they’re holding.


Why would religious extremists who have few if any other “cards” to play do that? And who can pressure them to do that?

If we’re supposedly the civilised grown-ups in the room with Israel as our long-standing strategic partner we have to do what we can to stop the bloodshed now. There’s no real argument for doing nothing and continuing that tacit support by saying well, Hamas are just as bad. Even if they clearly are.

Not justifying the actions of either set of extremist leaders and instead taking the side of the civilians should be a line we draw in the sand. I’m disturbed by our inability or unwillingness to do that.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:58 - Nov 6 with 3080 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:45 - Nov 6 by Darth_Koont

Why would religious extremists who have few if any other “cards” to play do that? And who can pressure them to do that?

If we’re supposedly the civilised grown-ups in the room with Israel as our long-standing strategic partner we have to do what we can to stop the bloodshed now. There’s no real argument for doing nothing and continuing that tacit support by saying well, Hamas are just as bad. Even if they clearly are.

Not justifying the actions of either set of extremist leaders and instead taking the side of the civilians should be a line we draw in the sand. I’m disturbed by our inability or unwillingness to do that.


I think too much can be read into the UK and US's apparent 'tacit support'. They definitely have a public position that looks like that, but I think there are signs that privately, that is changing quite quickly, as the bombing continues.

I also note with interest and dread that the US has seen fit to visibly move an Ohio class sub into the the area (according to the Guardian). I don't know loads about these except that they can carry nukes. There's obviously a massive threat to the populations of *both* sides.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:04 - Nov 6 with 3048 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:58 - Nov 6 by giant_stow

I think too much can be read into the UK and US's apparent 'tacit support'. They definitely have a public position that looks like that, but I think there are signs that privately, that is changing quite quickly, as the bombing continues.

I also note with interest and dread that the US has seen fit to visibly move an Ohio class sub into the the area (according to the Guardian). I don't know loads about these except that they can carry nukes. There's obviously a massive threat to the populations of *both* sides.


I think they’re realising how bad their support looks — plus how that militant stance is raising tensions domestically and internationally.

Innocent Gazan children, women and men have been killed at a frightening rate for several weeks now and the overall situation for the rest of the population is getting worse. All entirely predictable with our continued support.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:07 - Nov 6 with 3038 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:58 - Nov 6 by giant_stow

I think too much can be read into the UK and US's apparent 'tacit support'. They definitely have a public position that looks like that, but I think there are signs that privately, that is changing quite quickly, as the bombing continues.

I also note with interest and dread that the US has seen fit to visibly move an Ohio class sub into the the area (according to the Guardian). I don't know loads about these except that they can carry nukes. There's obviously a massive threat to the populations of *both* sides.


Our government's position on the conflict will be whatever the US government tells them it should be. What is most alarming domestically is the Tories are using the issue to try and further their culture war and curtail legitimate right to protest.

Protesting on the day before Armistice Day is disrespectful to veterans on the one hand, but giving homeless veterans a tent should be illegal on the other. The absolute state of it.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:12 - Nov 6 with 3007 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:58 - Nov 6 by giant_stow

I think too much can be read into the UK and US's apparent 'tacit support'. They definitely have a public position that looks like that, but I think there are signs that privately, that is changing quite quickly, as the bombing continues.

I also note with interest and dread that the US has seen fit to visibly move an Ohio class sub into the the area (according to the Guardian). I don't know loads about these except that they can carry nukes. There's obviously a massive threat to the populations of *both* sides.


I think you're right with that, not just the words but I fancy I can see something in Blinken's eyes which reinforces it. It might just be tiredness (unsurprisingly) or fear though.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:29 - Nov 6 with 2939 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:45 - Nov 6 by Darth_Koont

Why would religious extremists who have few if any other “cards” to play do that? And who can pressure them to do that?

If we’re supposedly the civilised grown-ups in the room with Israel as our long-standing strategic partner we have to do what we can to stop the bloodshed now. There’s no real argument for doing nothing and continuing that tacit support by saying well, Hamas are just as bad. Even if they clearly are.

Not justifying the actions of either set of extremist leaders and instead taking the side of the civilians should be a line we draw in the sand. I’m disturbed by our inability or unwillingness to do that.


you have no expectation of hamas, as religious extremists, releasing the hostages or reducing their capacity to inflict further attacks on Israel. and, correctly i think, you even ask why would they do that and who could pressure them to do that?

i think you pretty much capture there the position that israel is in and the real threat that it faces. the bloodshed is utterly awful but the threat to israel is equally real. that is the inescapable dilemma. i don't think inability or unwillingness is the issue in uk or us policy - it's a recognition that all the available options come at a real cost.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:38 - Nov 6 with 2890 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:29 - Nov 6 by lowhouseblue

you have no expectation of hamas, as religious extremists, releasing the hostages or reducing their capacity to inflict further attacks on Israel. and, correctly i think, you even ask why would they do that and who could pressure them to do that?

i think you pretty much capture there the position that israel is in and the real threat that it faces. the bloodshed is utterly awful but the threat to israel is equally real. that is the inescapable dilemma. i don't think inability or unwillingness is the issue in uk or us policy - it's a recognition that all the available options come at a real cost.


But there’s the difference.

The threat isn’t equally real. Even if Hamas’s rhetoric is disgustingly extreme. And Israel does have other avenues including the support of the strongest military in the world and the bulk of the Western governments diplomatically.

Plus, and this is the crucial point, Israel can step back. Where do Gazans step back to or indeed those in the occupied territories? The escalating oppression over the past couple of decades has left the Palestinians with nowhere to go and no-one to listen to them either, let alone support them.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:43 - Nov 6 with 2876 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:58 - Nov 6 by giant_stow

I think too much can be read into the UK and US's apparent 'tacit support'. They definitely have a public position that looks like that, but I think there are signs that privately, that is changing quite quickly, as the bombing continues.

I also note with interest and dread that the US has seen fit to visibly move an Ohio class sub into the the area (according to the Guardian). I don't know loads about these except that they can carry nukes. There's obviously a massive threat to the populations of *both* sides.


The US already moved an additional aircraft carrier to the region at the outset of the conflict. The UK had also bolstered their forces in the Mediterranean. It’s a deterrent against other regional actors escalating the conflict (largely Iran and proxies). It’s unlikely the US would get directly involved, but as previously stated they can’t ‘throw Israel to the wolves’ due to the risk of a full blown regional war. Iranian backed factions are attacking Israeli forces to try and provoke an attack on a neighbouring country. It’s a very dangerous situation.

That doesn’t however, prevent the US and UK condemning the egregious attacks on civilians in Gaza, or pressuring Israel to back down. You’d hope that would be the case privately, and it’s disappointing Biden has not been the statesman that is needed right now.

There’s probably no significance to the sub being nuclear capable - the U.S. already has nukes hosted in nearby Turkey.
[Post edited 6 Nov 2023 13:56]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:44 - Nov 6 with 2874 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:38 - Nov 6 by Darth_Koont

But there’s the difference.

The threat isn’t equally real. Even if Hamas’s rhetoric is disgustingly extreme. And Israel does have other avenues including the support of the strongest military in the world and the bulk of the Western governments diplomatically.

Plus, and this is the crucial point, Israel can step back. Where do Gazans step back to or indeed those in the occupied territories? The escalating oppression over the past couple of decades has left the Palestinians with nowhere to go and no-one to listen to them either, let alone support them.


what are these other avenues to reduce the threat to israel? you have already said that hamas won't negotiate. your solution seems to that be israel should essentially just suck up having an armed force on its border funded and equipped by iran and sheltering beneath the civilian population of gaza that routinely attacks the israeli population. that isn't sustainable. no nation would tolerate it.

again, the current suffering is horrendous, but to respond to it you need to fully recognise the dilemma that exists.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:55 - Nov 6 with 2830 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:44 - Nov 6 by lowhouseblue

what are these other avenues to reduce the threat to israel? you have already said that hamas won't negotiate. your solution seems to that be israel should essentially just suck up having an armed force on its border funded and equipped by iran and sheltering beneath the civilian population of gaza that routinely attacks the israeli population. that isn't sustainable. no nation would tolerate it.

again, the current suffering is horrendous, but to respond to it you need to fully recognise the dilemma that exists.


Fully recognise that the Israeli government has been oppressing another people throughout? Fully recognise that the alternative, even without Hamas in the West Bank, is increased occupation and displacement? Fully recognise that Israel is headed up by far-right ethno-religious fundamentalists with nuclear weapons?

I’m all for getting real but I’m not sure you or the US/UK will ever fully recognise the situation that turns all the manoeuvres and hand-wringing into NOT resolving the situation or at least ignoring that this is now about two sets of extremist leaders not one. And one where have taken sides in no uncertain terms.

We’re part of the problem — and have been for as long as I can remember — but never have we been so proud to show off our double standards.
[Post edited 6 Nov 2023 13:56]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:59 - Nov 6 with 2807 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:29 - Nov 6 by lowhouseblue

you have no expectation of hamas, as religious extremists, releasing the hostages or reducing their capacity to inflict further attacks on Israel. and, correctly i think, you even ask why would they do that and who could pressure them to do that?

i think you pretty much capture there the position that israel is in and the real threat that it faces. the bloodshed is utterly awful but the threat to israel is equally real. that is the inescapable dilemma. i don't think inability or unwillingness is the issue in uk or us policy - it's a recognition that all the available options come at a real cost.


Whatever this is about it certainly isn't about releasing/rescuing hostages.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-armed-wing-more-than-60-hostages

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:06 - Nov 6 with 2783 viewsphillymark

Ridiculous question. That's not what it's about
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:06 - Nov 6 with 2781 viewsphillymark

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 21:06 - Nov 2 by BanksterDebtSlave

Majd Souri, 7, was terrified by the explosions, said his father Ramez Souri.

He missed playing football with his school friends. He was devastated that the war had cancelled his Christian family’s much-anticipated trip to Nazareth, the town in Israel where tradition says Jesus grew up.

“Baba, where can we go?” Majd asked again and again when airstrikes roared. The family, devout members of Gaza’s tiny Christian community, finally had an answer — St. Porphyrius Greek Orthodox Church in Gaza City.

Souri said his son calmed down when they arrived at the church, where dozens of Christian families had taken shelter. Together, they prayed and sang.

On 20 October shrapnel crashed into the monastery, killing 18 people. Among the dead were Majd and his siblings, 9-year-old Julie and 15-year-old Soheil. Israel says it had been targeting a nearby Hamas command centre.

Majd was found beneath the rubble with his hands around his mother’s neck. His face was completely burned.

“My children just wanted peace and stability,” said Souri, his voice cracking. “All I cared about was that they were happy.”


Then return the hostages.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:09 - Nov 6 with 2777 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:06 - Nov 6 by phillymark

Ridiculous question. That's not what it's about


What is your answer to the question, out of interest?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:09 - Nov 6 with 2773 viewsphillymark

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:27 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

We could start by taking away our support and even sanctioning Israel. The US and UK’s practically uncritical support now and over the past couple of decades of increasing occupation and oppression has emboldened Netanyahu and the far-right forces in and around his government. They don’t need to talk.

Similarly by denying the Palestinians a voice over the same period they also can’t talk and extremists come to the fore as a result.

We in the West have made dialogue a practical impossibility with our stance. That needs to change — and we know it too from how other violent murderous conflicts between peoples have been resolved.


Any mention of Jew murder? Hostages? Is that part of your equation at all? How about the Nazi rhetoric of Hamas?
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How many Israeli and Palestinian lives is sufficient ? on 14:10 - Nov 6 with 2767 viewsphillymark

How many Israeli and Palestinian lives is sufficient ? on 09:07 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies

It doesn't map completely but the Provisional IRA got plenty of funding from the United States community of Irish emigrants (recent and centuries old) plus materiel from Czechoslovakia and Algeria. The UVF had a lower profile as far as 'money in' goes but I think fundamental Protestant organisations in Germany (and no doubt further afield were involved.) And, as a London Irish friend startlingly said to me when playing Devil's Advocate about the rights of Russians living in Ukraine 'English, Scots, they're all the same, we want the British out of Ireland'. The history is different, a modern state did not have to be carved out for either Great Britain or the island of Ireland but, for the victims, the effects of terrorism (and Shock and Awe for that matter) are starkly similar.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:39]


Did the IRA have the elimination of all British people as one of its stated aims?
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:10 - Nov 6 with 2767 viewsnoggin

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:06 - Nov 6 by phillymark

Then return the hostages.


Who are you talking to? Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian civilians.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:11 - Nov 6 with 2764 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:06 - Nov 6 by phillymark

Then return the hostages.


Maybe it would be a good idea to have a pause so as not to kill any more of them.
Will the Israeli state change their mind about destroying Hamas once they are (hypothetically) released?

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:15 - Nov 6 with 2734 viewsphillymark

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:54 - Nov 5 by leitrimblue

At last a bit of honesty from an Israeli official. This is no longer about defending themselves it's about genocide and revenge. How many Palestinian lives is sufficient?
All of them!


Who the F*** are you to claim that this is "honesty"? What do you know? The minister was suspended by the way.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:17 - Nov 6 with 2703 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:15 - Nov 6 by phillymark

Who the F*** are you to claim that this is "honesty"? What do you know? The minister was suspended by the way.


You don't care about the thousands of children killed in Gaza then?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:53 - Nov 6 with 2619 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:55 - Nov 6 by Darth_Koont

Fully recognise that the Israeli government has been oppressing another people throughout? Fully recognise that the alternative, even without Hamas in the West Bank, is increased occupation and displacement? Fully recognise that Israel is headed up by far-right ethno-religious fundamentalists with nuclear weapons?

I’m all for getting real but I’m not sure you or the US/UK will ever fully recognise the situation that turns all the manoeuvres and hand-wringing into NOT resolving the situation or at least ignoring that this is now about two sets of extremist leaders not one. And one where have taken sides in no uncertain terms.

We’re part of the problem — and have been for as long as I can remember — but never have we been so proud to show off our double standards.
[Post edited 6 Nov 2023 13:56]


so you're just pushing your long established agenda. just knee jerk anti-israeli rhetoric. israel is to blame.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:54 - Nov 6 with 2609 viewsBlueschev

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:06 - Nov 6 by phillymark

Then return the hostages.


Are you saying that Palestinian Christians in Gaza should be punished for the actions of Hamas? I fail to see what they could do to aid the return of the hostages.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:58 - Nov 6 with 2568 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:53 - Nov 6 by lowhouseblue

so you're just pushing your long established agenda. just knee jerk anti-israeli rhetoric. israel is to blame.


Sigh.

Can you take your bad faith-agenda somewhere else? You have nothing to say.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 15:01 - Nov 6 with 2559 viewsBlueschev

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:54 - Nov 6 by Blueschev

Are you saying that Palestinian Christians in Gaza should be punished for the actions of Hamas? I fail to see what they could do to aid the return of the hostages.


The occupation has been ongoing for more than 50 years. Whether you agree that it is the route cause of the troubles or not, to claim that it is could hardly be described as knee-jerk.
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