| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:29 - Dec 15 with 1168 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:17 - Dec 15 by jayessess |
Would you say that 14th-Century Bio-Archaeology was a particularly urgent matter of state though? It's hard to see any particular purpose to this wider public discussion other than generating that sort of abuse (and I think it's massively underplaying the role of the press and political figures to attribute that mainly to social media culture).
People over-estimate how supportive Higher Education Institutions are when they're getting pressure from the newspapers and the government. I'm not sure how much comfort I'd take from colleagues' willingness to console me over a pint if I somehow appeared in a Daily Mail double-page feature about woke historians who hate Britain!
(Would also add, whatever the problems with just "having a wider public debate" about academic research, a Minister of State writing a letter to your employer to express concern about your research goes well beyond that) [Post edited 15 Dec 2023 11:25]
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i think the issue is seeking to use 14th century bio-archaeology to influence current 21st century political debates. to me using concepts such as 'structural racism' to explain 14th london feels agenda driven and ideologically loaded. clearly the debate badenoch wants isn't narrowly about 14th century black death victims but is about the quality of some research output. that quality question is also a legitimate topic of public debate.
it's more than just a pint though. i can't think of a scenario in which political criticism from badenoch would threaten anyone's job, funding or promotion prospects. other researchers showing the work to be crap properly would do though |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:35 - Dec 15 with 1122 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:17 - Dec 15 by jayessess |
Would you say that 14th-Century Bio-Archaeology was a particularly urgent matter of state though? It's hard to see any particular purpose to this wider public discussion other than generating that sort of abuse (and I think it's massively underplaying the role of the press and political figures to attribute that mainly to social media culture).
People over-estimate how supportive Higher Education Institutions are when they're getting pressure from the newspapers and the government. I'm not sure how much comfort I'd take from colleagues' willingness to console me over a pint if I somehow appeared in a Daily Mail double-page feature about woke historians who hate Britain!
(Would also add, whatever the problems with just "having a wider public debate" about academic research, a Minister of State writing a letter to your employer to express concern about your research goes well beyond that) [Post edited 15 Dec 2023 11:25]
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And here we are getting back to the point I think.
Regardless of the validity of the conclusions the study draws the point is that the question was asked in parliament to allow Badenoch the opportunity for her sound bite reply ("You tee it up for me and I'll smash in into the back of the net" sort of thing). Not an unfamiliar tactic for sure but Badenoch's choice of reply, as others have said, was nothing other than her positioning herself for a future leadership challenge.
As she would have known about the question in advance she could have had a reply drafted for her that challenged the study on academic terms - this forum seems to have managed that. Instead she chose to wilfully misinterpret the study (the phrenology reference) and then had the gall to say, "It is also important that evidence – be it historical or current – is not presented in a way that is misleading or that implies that the information is reliable when it is not." A fair criticism of the study, perhaps, but coming from a minister in this government it seems like hypocrisy of the highest order. |  |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:36 - Dec 15 with 1117 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:21 - Dec 15 by Cotty |
Disclaimer: I haven't read the study, I have a big pile of more interesting ones that I need to read on my desk. But if, as is my understanding, they have been excavating mass plague burial sites, and there is a higher than expected proportion of a particular ethnic group, that is evidence to support the hypothesis that ethnicity was a factor in mortality. |
no. they looked at two sites. the bigger one 'the control' was of non-plague victims. If you put the sites together (plague and non-plague) there were 145 skulls of which they found 17 to have an 'african connection'. given that you're not just looking at plague deaths but a broader cross section of the london population, that 12% seems extraordinarily high. it suggests that their system of classifying skulls maybe a problem. even in the non-plague site 9% were classified as of african connection which much much higher than current understanding of the period implies. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:36 - Dec 15 with 1110 views | Cotty |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:29 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
i think the issue is seeking to use 14th century bio-archaeology to influence current 21st century political debates. to me using concepts such as 'structural racism' to explain 14th london feels agenda driven and ideologically loaded. clearly the debate badenoch wants isn't narrowly about 14th century black death victims but is about the quality of some research output. that quality question is also a legitimate topic of public debate.
it's more than just a pint though. i can't think of a scenario in which political criticism from badenoch would threaten anyone's job, funding or promotion prospects. other researchers showing the work to be crap properly would do though |
With the greatest of respect, it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about. There are many examples of Universities throwing academics under a bus due to political pressure*. Absolutely the words of a minister can adversely affect somebody's career. Are you really so naive as to think that they wouldn't?
And lastly, given that you appear to know so little about this, why do you care so much?
*There's probably a list somewhere on the UCU website. |  | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:38 - Dec 15 with 1099 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:19 - Dec 15 by bluelagos |
And he can't even see why 🤣🤣🤣 |
if you can't be bothered even with the abstract the figures are in the mail article. it's always best to check before being a smart arse. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:40 - Dec 15 with 1082 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:36 - Dec 15 by Cotty |
With the greatest of respect, it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about. There are many examples of Universities throwing academics under a bus due to political pressure*. Absolutely the words of a minister can adversely affect somebody's career. Are you really so naive as to think that they wouldn't?
And lastly, given that you appear to know so little about this, why do you care so much?
*There's probably a list somewhere on the UCU website. |
i have never known that to be the case in humanities or social sciences. political criticism from the government, a opposed to having work trashed by other researchers, has always been a badge of honour.
edit: and again, why the insults needed. it's boring and tedious. why do you feel the need to belittle people who disagree with you? telling me i don't know anything about it is just rude. [Post edited 15 Dec 2023 11:43]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:42 - Dec 15 with 1062 views | Cotty |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:40 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
i have never known that to be the case in humanities or social sciences. political criticism from the government, a opposed to having work trashed by other researchers, has always been a badge of honour.
edit: and again, why the insults needed. it's boring and tedious. why do you feel the need to belittle people who disagree with you? telling me i don't know anything about it is just rude. [Post edited 15 Dec 2023 11:43]
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Absolute nonsense. | | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:44 - Dec 15 with 1044 views | bluelagos |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:38 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
if you can't be bothered even with the abstract the figures are in the mail article. it's always best to check before being a smart arse. |
There's only one person being a smart arse here. Only you are looking more of an idiot from where I am sat
The whole point is that they took a sample of dead people (from the plague) and the proportion of African descent was far higher than they would expect.
And you criticise them because the proportion of people of African is higher than you'd expect...
Ay you crack on pal. |  |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:44 - Dec 15 with 1043 views | leitrimblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:29 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
i think the issue is seeking to use 14th century bio-archaeology to influence current 21st century political debates. to me using concepts such as 'structural racism' to explain 14th london feels agenda driven and ideologically loaded. clearly the debate badenoch wants isn't narrowly about 14th century black death victims but is about the quality of some research output. that quality question is also a legitimate topic of public debate.
it's more than just a pint though. i can't think of a scenario in which political criticism from badenoch would threaten anyone's job, funding or promotion prospects. other researchers showing the work to be crap properly would do though |
I think its quite poor/below average research in which they haven't proved structural racism at all and i dont think they should have claimed they had. Its also not completely shocking to think they may have a bit of a agenda.
The problem for me is as I mentioned earlier is what if this research had been carried out to the highest professional standards on a larger scale buy completely non agenda driven researchers and then came to the same conclusions based purely on the archaeological evidence.
Should they not claim it as structural racism even if their results seem to imply exactly that? Should they then face being attacked by politicians and labelled woke by the national press? |  | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:45 - Dec 15 with 1041 views | bluelagos |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:38 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
if you can't be bothered even with the abstract the figures are in the mail article. it's always best to check before being a smart arse. |
Double post [Post edited 15 Dec 2023 11:46]
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:47 - Dec 15 with 1000 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:45 - Dec 15 by bluelagos |
Double post [Post edited 15 Dec 2023 11:46]
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their method of classifying skulls is giving figures even for the non-plague population which aren't supported by any other research. it suggests that their classification method in faulty. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:51 - Dec 15 with 963 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 10:23 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
in humanities and social sciences enough of the basic structure is usually clear so that even non-experts can engage with it. they can see the assumptions made, the factors excluded, the simplifications and aggregations, the data limitations, the logic by which conclusions are drawn, the qualifications which come with the conclusions, and any assertions which go beyond the studies core focus and amount to speculation or hypothesis. all of that should be made every clear in good academic work. people can also see how other experts have critiqued the work and draw arguments from that - as is the case in the mail article. we should be welcoming wider engagement in such debates. |
Pretty impressive for Bad Enoch to have digested all that before writing her letter and making her statement.... |  |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:55 - Dec 15 with 942 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:44 - Dec 15 by leitrimblue |
I think its quite poor/below average research in which they haven't proved structural racism at all and i dont think they should have claimed they had. Its also not completely shocking to think they may have a bit of a agenda.
The problem for me is as I mentioned earlier is what if this research had been carried out to the highest professional standards on a larger scale buy completely non agenda driven researchers and then came to the same conclusions based purely on the archaeological evidence.
Should they not claim it as structural racism even if their results seem to imply exactly that? Should they then face being attacked by politicians and labelled woke by the national press? |
i agree, if the methodology was stronger then much of the criticism would have to fall away.
but you're still left with the appropriateness of using 21st concepts such as 'structural racism', taken from modern societies, cultures and institutions, to explain the 14th century. the concept has a meaning in the modern context, but can it mean the same in a society with completely different structures, beliefs, hierarchies and ways of thinking? and even if there were a way to accurately classify 14th century skulls can that provide an explanation of the structures surrounding their deaths. i think that even with a good empirical methodology research which reached hard conclusions about the the structure and mechanisms of inequality at that time would be open to challenge. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:55 - Dec 15 with 942 views | bluelagos |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:47 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
their method of classifying skulls is giving figures even for the non-plague population which aren't supported by any other research. it suggests that their classification method in faulty. |
They used the same method of classification on both samples, so your point doesn't negate the findings of higher rates of black people in the sample of people who died from the plague than those in the non plague sample.
If in both cases the method over classified by say 20%, the findings would still be valid. That's one of the benefits of using the control sample and comparing the two sets of results. Everything else remains unchanged. | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:58 - Dec 15 with 908 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:55 - Dec 15 by bluelagos |
They used the same method of classification on both samples, so your point doesn't negate the findings of higher rates of black people in the sample of people who died from the plague than those in the non plague sample.
If in both cases the method over classified by say 20%, the findings would still be valid. That's one of the benefits of using the control sample and comparing the two sets of results. Everything else remains unchanged. |
their method seems to be over classifying by something like 500%. Once you allow for that any statistical test for a significant difference between the two populations would fail. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:04 - Dec 15 with 868 views | bluelagos |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:58 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
their method seems to be over classifying by something like 500%. Once you allow for that any statistical test for a significant difference between the two populations would fail. |
That's a huge assumption you've made. Given the lack of detailed data on the composition of black people in London at the time, especially in the area concerned, then you have little to back that up.
Immigrants have always lived in areas with other immigrants, so it's quite feasible an area would have far higher rates of migrants than the London average.
Truth is without detailed census data it's always going to be guess work what the percentage of black people would be in a location. That is exactly why they do the control. | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:11 - Dec 15 with 844 views | giant_stow |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:42 - Dec 15 by Cotty |
Absolute nonsense. |
Removed - not appropriate - apologies to the poster involved [Post edited 15 Dec 2023 12:35]
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:12 - Dec 15 with 835 views | leitrimblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 11:55 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
i agree, if the methodology was stronger then much of the criticism would have to fall away.
but you're still left with the appropriateness of using 21st concepts such as 'structural racism', taken from modern societies, cultures and institutions, to explain the 14th century. the concept has a meaning in the modern context, but can it mean the same in a society with completely different structures, beliefs, hierarchies and ways of thinking? and even if there were a way to accurately classify 14th century skulls can that provide an explanation of the structures surrounding their deaths. i think that even with a good empirical methodology research which reached hard conclusions about the the structure and mechanisms of inequality at that time would be open to challenge. |
Structural racism probably isn't a term I would use myself while writing a report into 14thC cemeteries. But I'm far from sure that it wouldn't have a meaning during that time period just as it does now.
Though times change some human actions seem quite constant. Fear, non trusting and othering of outsiders and groups different to us seems to appear time and time again in the historical record.
So if these people's research was correct (I am far from convinced it is. I've already stated i dont think it's a big enough sample etc) and they could prove it in the archaeological record then I wouldn't have an issue with them using that term | | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:15 - Dec 15 with 812 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:04 - Dec 15 by bluelagos |
That's a huge assumption you've made. Given the lack of detailed data on the composition of black people in London at the time, especially in the area concerned, then you have little to back that up.
Immigrants have always lived in areas with other immigrants, so it's quite feasible an area would have far higher rates of migrants than the London average.
Truth is without detailed census data it's always going to be guess work what the percentage of black people would be in a location. That is exactly why they do the control. |
ok, but if you're right and their analysis is specific to one demographically very unusual locality they shouldn't draw any wider conclusions. did migrants in 14th century london really live in enclaves? given different social structures etc i have no idea whether the practice then matched practice today. for example, if you were a servant you lived in the household of your employer. i assume merchants tended to live in places frequented by other merchants ete etc. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:25 - Dec 15 with 767 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:12 - Dec 15 by leitrimblue |
Structural racism probably isn't a term I would use myself while writing a report into 14thC cemeteries. But I'm far from sure that it wouldn't have a meaning during that time period just as it does now.
Though times change some human actions seem quite constant. Fear, non trusting and othering of outsiders and groups different to us seems to appear time and time again in the historical record.
So if these people's research was correct (I am far from convinced it is. I've already stated i dont think it's a big enough sample etc) and they could prove it in the archaeological record then I wouldn't have an issue with them using that term |
i agree, as a term it has unavoidable connotations to our modern meanings - when we now think of it in primarily economic, material or class terms. (stealing from another poster) in the 14th century status, wealth etc may well have been structured by things (religion, clan, language etc) that we wouldn't recognise today. it's use then probably adds confusion. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:37 - Dec 15 with 736 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:15 - Dec 15 by giant_stow |
Removed - not appropriate - apologies to the poster involved [Post edited 15 Dec 2023 12:36]
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absolutely. you're not wrong. i know nothing about medieval history, but i am really interested in how we debate these things. the politics of how academic research is used and interpreted and how it contributes to public debate at times of great controversy and division fascinates me. which is why i've spent half my morning on here. but it's only interesting if you first accept that there are at leat two valid stand points and you see the points at issue as contested rather than proven. is the role of academia to understand the world or to change the world? the position of someone like badenoch is that if the later is the case it's far harder to maintain standards of objectivity and honesty. surely that' an interesting assertion on her part? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:43 - Dec 15 with 701 views | giant_stow |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 12:37 - Dec 15 by lowhouseblue |
absolutely. you're not wrong. i know nothing about medieval history, but i am really interested in how we debate these things. the politics of how academic research is used and interpreted and how it contributes to public debate at times of great controversy and division fascinates me. which is why i've spent half my morning on here. but it's only interesting if you first accept that there are at leat two valid stand points and you see the points at issue as contested rather than proven. is the role of academia to understand the world or to change the world? the position of someone like badenoch is that if the later is the case it's far harder to maintain standards of objectivity and honesty. surely that' an interesting assertion on her part? |
I think you make excellent points and thanks for being forgiving about my mistake. | |
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