| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:05 - Dec 14 with 1845 views | Herbivore |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 18:42 - Dec 14 by Trequartista |
That's the original (egalitarian) meaning. It has another (authoritarian) meaning. It's unfortunate and confusing that the same word means different things. |
It's often used by authoritarians to try and disparage their opponents, that's not the same thing as it having an authoritarian meaning. |  |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:07 - Dec 14 with 1842 views | Herbivore |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 19:04 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
it's a two way thing. if people insult you or suggest you can't understand something you're really not obliged to still engage with them. |
Whatever. | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:10 - Dec 14 with 1835 views | Herbivore |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 19:15 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
calling it 'phrenology' was a smart arse jibe and i agree that a minister shouldn't enter into that sort of cheap silliness. i just don't believe that a culture war can be one sided. i also take the view that the first to declare anything a culture war, in this case the guardian, is the one fighting the culture war. |
Blimey. Surely even you realise that's a load of boll0cks. If you genuinely believe half of what you post on here, you're in deep. | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:10 - Dec 14 with 1833 views | brazil1982 |
Article in the Spectator on 24 November about this too.
"This BBC headline ‘Black women most likely to die in medieval London plague’ actually derives from a dubious study, based on tiny samples, authored by academics with a prior agenda, who only seek to confirm their own biases, as long as they can prove that such-and-such is racist. " |  | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:11 - Dec 14 with 1824 views | Herbivore |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:10 - Dec 14 by brazil1982 |
Article in the Spectator on 24 November about this too.
"This BBC headline ‘Black women most likely to die in medieval London plague’ actually derives from a dubious study, based on tiny samples, authored by academics with a prior agenda, who only seek to confirm their own biases, as long as they can prove that such-and-such is racist. " |
The Spectator.
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:11 - Dec 14 with 1825 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:10 - Dec 14 by brazil1982 |
Article in the Spectator on 24 November about this too.
"This BBC headline ‘Black women most likely to die in medieval London plague’ actually derives from a dubious study, based on tiny samples, authored by academics with a prior agenda, who only seek to confirm their own biases, as long as they can prove that such-and-such is racist. " |
When non scientists are making bald assertions about the motivation of academics, probably without reading the paper, there is an issue.... The Spectator ffs. |  | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:28 - Dec 14 with 1770 views | brazil1982 |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:11 - Dec 14 by redrickstuhaart |
When non scientists are making bald assertions about the motivation of academics, probably without reading the paper, there is an issue.... The Spectator ffs. |
What's the state of someone's hair (or lack of) got to do with it?!
Sorry I really should only quote from The Guardian. | | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 21:15 - Dec 14 with 1704 views | BlueBadger |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 16:56 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
this is quite an old story, so it's odd that the guardian ha picked up on it now. the mail has a critique of the research:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12789127/How-earth-Black-Death-prove-
given sample size, identification difficulties and the vast differences between every aspect of then and now, it could be argued that the researchers are trying very hard to pursue a modern agenda. it will be interesting to see some proper academic assessments of the article. |
Still snowy in Stockholm? |  |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 21:20 - Dec 14 with 1699 views | BlueBadger |
Having browsed the thread, is the answer 'no, they can't'. | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 21:23 - Dec 14 with 1688 views | BlueBadger |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 17:51 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
whatever. |
You''re going to make your pal and Paz Tribute act Zapers very sad with your ongoing horrid behaviour and open bullying. | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 21:51 - Dec 14 with 1652 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:11 - Dec 14 by redrickstuhaart |
When non scientists are making bald assertions about the motivation of academics, probably without reading the paper, there is an issue.... The Spectator ffs. |
you do know that not all academics are scientists? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 21:58 - Dec 14 with 1623 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 21:51 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
you do know that not all academics are scientists? |
Yes. Next? | | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 22:06 - Dec 14 with 1610 views | eireblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 17:40 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
well clearly badenoch and many others don't believe that 'structural racism' explains socioeconomic inequality. so i guess they are concerned that an historical example is, in their view, being misused to support that modern agenda. |
Well, what they could do, if interested, is analyse and study evidence rather than having a belief.
I dunno, do government ministers, have…..oh what would you call them,…staff of some sort that they could use to gather impartial evidence, to inform decision making rather than relying on beliefs.
Such a shame that they are limited to criticising research with small data samples from the 14th century.
No wonder they are doing a bad job. |  | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 22:08 - Dec 14 with 1601 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:10 - Dec 14 by Herbivore |
Blimey. Surely even you realise that's a load of boll0cks. If you genuinely believe half of what you post on here, you're in deep. |
i have different views from you. your views are right. therefore i'm 'in deep'. got you. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 22:14 - Dec 14 with 1566 views | Herbivore |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 22:08 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
i have different views from you. your views are right. therefore i'm 'in deep'. got you. |
See, you are capable of learning. | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 22:26 - Dec 14 with 1525 views | jayessess |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 21:51 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
you do know that not all academics are scientists? |
Bio-archaeologists specifically are scientists though. |  |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 23:44 - Dec 14 with 1447 views | BlueBadger |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 17:40 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
well clearly badenoch and many others don't believe that 'structural racism' explains socioeconomic inequality. so i guess they are concerned that an historical example is, in their view, being misused to support that modern agenda. |
What is it you like best about the Tories? The bigotry, the corruption, the criminality or the incompetence? | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 23:55 - Dec 14 with 1423 views | lowhouseblue |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 23:44 - Dec 14 by BlueBadger |
What is it you like best about the Tories? The bigotry, the corruption, the criminality or the incompetence? |
it's actually really more a dislike for simplistic, narrow minded, performative group think. i'm not keen on the arrogance and self-righteousness of it all. but, then i'm not at all keen on the tories either. i guess i'll just have to think for myself. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 23:58 - Dec 14 with 1405 views | Trequartista |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 20:05 - Dec 14 by Herbivore |
It's often used by authoritarians to try and disparage their opponents, that's not the same thing as it having an authoritarian meaning. |
It's often used by right-wing authoritarians to try and disparage their opponents - yes.
That's not the same as the left-wing authoritarian meaning i was referring to - yes. |  |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 01:37 - Dec 15 with 1337 views | ChampionsofInnsbruck |
She’s just making her takeover bid, she’s the ultimate careerist and barely seen in her constituency where her local party has been absolutely annihilated after her selection. |  | | |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 03:09 - Dec 15 with 1316 views | tcblue |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 07:36 - Dec 15 with 1249 views | Herbivore |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 23:58 - Dec 14 by Trequartista |
It's often used by right-wing authoritarians to try and disparage their opponents - yes.
That's not the same as the left-wing authoritarian meaning i was referring to - yes. |
Can you please explain the left-wing authoritarian meaning without merely regurgitating the right-wing made up trope version of 'woke'? Be interested to hear it. | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 07:42 - Dec 15 with 1233 views | Herbivore |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 23:55 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
it's actually really more a dislike for simplistic, narrow minded, performative group think. i'm not keen on the arrogance and self-righteousness of it all. but, then i'm not at all keen on the tories either. i guess i'll just have to think for myself. |
I'm not sure how well "thinking for yourself" is working for you, mate. You've had people whose livelihoods are in the field of academic research explain patiently to you why Badenoch's intervention amounts to an attack on academic freedom and your response has been to post a link to a Daily Mail article and basically go "nah bruv, whatevs". Perhaps try a different tack, maybe listening to those with greater knowledge than you would be a good place to start. As for your accusations of arrogance and self-righteousness, I've just had to put a new irony meter on my Christmas list. | |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 09:07 - Dec 15 with 1172 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 19:15 - Dec 14 by lowhouseblue |
calling it 'phrenology' was a smart arse jibe and i agree that a minister shouldn't enter into that sort of cheap silliness. i just don't believe that a culture war can be one sided. i also take the view that the first to declare anything a culture war, in this case the guardian, is the one fighting the culture war. |
Well I think this is the first time for a long time that I have seen the "he who smelt it, dealt it" argument. |  |
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| Can one of you anti woke boys explain the problem here? on 09:21 - Dec 15 with 1141 views | jayessess |
One thing I would say, as someone with a PhD in a cognate discipline (History), some fields that deal regularly with the past are not terribly good at historicising their claims and terminology. Whenever you deal with the past you need to situate everything you are doing in the particular social practices/cultures/processes of the time you are studying - their meaning then, not now. If this showed up on my desk, I'd want to ask what they understood "race" to mean to people in the 14th Century? How do people in this period articulate difference, racial or otherwise? How does that articulation shape 14th Century life? What are the "structures" you see dictating the life chances of non-Europeans in 14th Century England?
I'd presume this paper went to other archaeologists for peer review because if it went to a Medieval Historian (especially the ones that the Daily Mail would consider "woke"), they'd be all over "structural racism" as an anachronism. People in the Medieval world aren't "race thinking" like people do in the modern world, their "structures" aren't the structures of the modern state and capital, so it's not a terribly helpful framework for this kind of work.
I do wonder sometimes if this kind of claim isn't partially driven by some of the neo-liberal metrics that shape academic output. One of the big agendas in contemporary academia is "impact" - projects get measured on how much impact they have on the wider society, so when your work has no obvious direct impact I'm sure there's a temptation to make claims like this. Of course, if we just accepted that the purpose of much academic research is just to deepen human knowledge and stopped trying to measure and rank everybody all the f***ing time this would be less of an issue. [Post edited 15 Dec 2023 9:24]
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