| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/t) 09:09 - Jan 3 with 4663 views | BlueBadger |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 14:30 - Jan 3 with 1345 views | Churchman |
Seeing the NHS close up recently just reaffirmed my view. For the people within it their work is a vocation. What they do is extraordinary and when you see them dealing with somebody that’s close to you, it really sharpens the mind.
For me it’s really simple. If people are working in a hard, vocational environment, the least the society they serve should do is reward them properly. The last thing they should do is apply a crude form of moral blackmail on people doing this work. That’s what this government is trying to do. They are saying that these people are putting lives at risk by not working yet the work they do is worth considerably less that what it was worth 14 years ago. They can’t have it both ways.
‘There isn’t the money’. In a £3tn economy, there’s the money alright. The government and ‘their’ people just want more of it. If granny needs help, put a new wing on the mansion and hire private doctors and nurses. Simple - the JRM style approach.
Elderly people? They’ve had their time. Let them die - the Johnson approach no doubt supported by his people. Not sure what Hancocks view was - he was too busy fumbling his Secretary with the lights dimmed before mincing off to the jungle to eat bugs for £300k.
The government holds the Trumpist view that if you want it, buy it. If you can’t afford it, get another job. If you can’t, your fault. The run down of the NHS is just part of this approach. Regardless of how rubbish NHS England might be, if you are spending less than your peer countries per capita year in year out what is your service going to look like after 14 years?
My cousin is a skin specialist. She for many years split her time between NHS and private work. A few years back, the NHS had become so difficult for her to do the job in the way she wanted to, she now works privately. To quote another Poster, she ‘got another job’. That didn’t impact on those who can afford the fees or who are insured, but it did everyone else.
We, as a society, can do better than this. We can do better that a government that doesn’t give a monkeys about the people it was elected to represent. The doctors are right to do what they are doing.
The government are accountable for this. Their mess. It’s for them to sort it out. And that includes paying people properly.
Edit: apologies for the rant [Post edited 3 Jan 2024 14:30]
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 14:48 - Jan 3 with 1306 views | BlueBadger |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 13:42 - Jan 3 by Leaky |
Walk out get another job |
They are mate. Wage stagnation and worsening conditions are causing people to leave in droves. | |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 14:49 - Jan 3 with 1307 views | BlueBadger |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 14:28 - Jan 3 by matteoblue |
I don't contest that it's a terrible place to work at all. That's precisely my point, they should work somewhere else or find another profession. But we don't need doctors who endanger human life, it is against the very point of being a doctor. |
Deteriorating terms and conditions will ensure that we only attract the very worst who can't get work elsewhere. Bad pay and conditions cost lives. | |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 15:04 - Jan 3 with 1281 views | braveblue |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 09:54 - Jan 3 by BlueBadger |
Tell us you don't understand how bargaining and negotiation works without telling us you don't understand how bargaining and negotiation work. |
If it was purely a negotiating tactic why have they not put the current very generous offer to their members? |  | | |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 15:11 - Jan 3 with 1269 views | Herbivore |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 15:04 - Jan 3 by braveblue |
If it was purely a negotiating tactic why have they not put the current very generous offer to their members? |
The very generous offer of 3% for this year? |  |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 15:22 - Jan 3 with 1257 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 14:28 - Jan 3 by matteoblue |
I don't contest that it's a terrible place to work at all. That's precisely my point, they should work somewhere else or find another profession. But we don't need doctors who endanger human life, it is against the very point of being a doctor. |
The Sovereign Individuals are out in force today... |  |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 15:25 - Jan 3 with 1251 views | Churchman |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 15:04 - Jan 3 by braveblue |
If it was purely a negotiating tactic why have they not put the current very generous offer to their members? |
This is on the BMA website
https://www.bma.org.uk/our-campaigns/junior-doctor-campaigns/pay/pay-restoration
What is unrealistic about their side of the argument?
The NHS is haemorrhaging staff. Why? Because their pay is inadequate and conditions are awful. Tory solution? Pay cuts and moral leverage to get people to work for less or leave. Either suits their pursuit of a cheaper form US style health provision? Tried getting a GP appointment lately? Good luck. | | | |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 15:45 - Jan 3 with 1230 views | MattinLondon |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 14:48 - Jan 3 by BlueBadger |
They are mate. Wage stagnation and worsening conditions are causing people to leave in droves. |
This maybe is an unfair couple of questions to ask you but here goes. Based on currant work practices would you advise medicine as a career for youngsters?
Also, if a younger colleague told you that they had a job offer in Australia or Canada would you tell them to seriously consider it? |  | | |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 16:42 - Jan 3 with 1204 views | Leaky |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 13:47 - Jan 3 by Herbivore |
Great, and then we have no staff in the NHS. What a brilliant solution. |
Then they have pay more in wages to recruit. Why havnt the unions thought of it. |  | | |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 16:44 - Jan 3 with 1202 views | Herbivore |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 16:42 - Jan 3 by Leaky |
Then they have pay more in wages to recruit. Why havnt the unions thought of it. |
Eh? | |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 17:12 - Jan 3 with 1175 views | DJR |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 10:21 - Jan 3 by WestStanderLaLaLa |
If you had a 26% real terms pay cut over the years, what’s your starting point? |
I imagine 26% is actually an underestimate of the difference, in real terms, between their wages now and what they would have been if they had continued to rise above inflation (as they would have been doing prior to austerity).
So far as I can gather proper real terms' pay progression, without promotion, seems to have largely disappeared as a concept in many sectors.
But that's also neo-liberalism for you, and we are merely mimicking the US, where the average American is no better off now than forty odd years ago.
EDIT: here are a couple of articles which help illustrate the points that I am making.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64970708
https://www.ft.com/content/dd7f55ca-4b07-331d-8764-382dd46cde4a [Post edited 3 Jan 2024 17:24]
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 19:29 - Jan 3 with 1094 views | BlueBadger |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 16:42 - Jan 3 by Leaky |
Then they have pay more in wages to recruit. Why havnt the unions thought of it. |
Perhaps they could cancel some planned tax cuts for the wealthy? | |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 19:36 - Jan 3 with 1082 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 19:29 - Jan 3 by BlueBadger |
Perhaps they could cancel some planned tax cuts for the wealthy? |
Indeed. Or use the significant boost in income that inflation has provided in terms of tax, and private sector wage increases, which have not been passed on to public sector folk.
I would like to make the point though, that these doctors have already had a better and bigger increase than most of the public sector. The same picture is to be found in so many other places. The Court system is collapsing before our eyes. Not just criminal stuff that is in the papers, but family too. The police. Employees in just about every public department are leaving in droves and being replaced by less experienced staff and fewer of them as a result of consistent cuts, and persistently (and deliberately) decreasing pay. [Post edited 3 Jan 2024 19:50]
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 19:39 - Jan 3 with 1076 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 14:28 - Jan 3 by matteoblue |
I don't contest that it's a terrible place to work at all. That's precisely my point, they should work somewhere else or find another profession. But we don't need doctors who endanger human life, it is against the very point of being a doctor. |
Aren’t you missing the point here? Why are you satisfied with conditions being poor and getting worse? It’s in all of our interests for it NOT to be a terrible place to work, as it’s what we rely on when we inevitably become ill. All of us. Even those going private will most likely be accessing NHS staff and facilities in some way. |  |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 20:55 - Jan 3 with 1047 views | Bigalhunter |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 16:42 - Jan 3 by Leaky |
Then they have pay more in wages to recruit. Why havnt the unions thought of it. |
They always give themselves away with an utterly illogical steaming brain dump followed up with a healthy speeling grammer faux pas…
Bal*s. |  |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 10:05 - Jan 4 with 951 views | matteoblue |
| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 19:39 - Jan 3 by Swansea_Blue |
Aren’t you missing the point here? Why are you satisfied with conditions being poor and getting worse? It’s in all of our interests for it NOT to be a terrible place to work, as it’s what we rely on when we inevitably become ill. All of us. Even those going private will most likely be accessing NHS staff and facilities in some way. |
Who said I was satisfied with the conditions? This is straw man argument. |  |
| We are Premier League, say we are Premier League! |
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| Probably not for the last time this year, solidarity with the junior doctors (n/ on 10:10 - Jan 4 with 939 views | tcblue |
Just gone to my local picket with some warm drinks and some biscuits.
Some people have shorter memories than me, these folks helped my mum when it was her time. Huge love out to doctors, nurses, HCAs, porters etc | | | |
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