| Miners strike, the front line. 21:03 - Feb 18 with 5628 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
BBC2 now.
Edit....the things I saw and then seeing how it was reported changed me forever. [Post edited 18 Feb 21:05]
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 10:03 - Feb 20 with 1399 views | cbower |
My best friend's father and brother were miners. They stayed out the full strike and it was heartbreaking to see what proud men were forced to endure. We were 16 and that strike politicised me and remains the seminal cornerstone of my loathing of the Tories. Later, when I married, my father-in-law was an ex-miner in Yorkshire. He went back to work 2 weeks before the strike ended, couldn't see his family suffer any more, and I don’t think he ever really forgave himself.
The school where I work is in the centre of ex- mining villages and memories are still raw let me tell you.
Thatcher, undoubtedly the most influential British politician of the 20th Century (including Churchill) remains a malevolent and malignant influence more than 3 decades after she was ousted. I still chuckle every time I see the images of her departing No 10 with tears in her rodentine eyes. When the election comes around this year, whilst Labour are no great shakes right now, I hope people remember who the Tories are, - self aggrandising , contemptible, patronising, largely incòmpetent blaggards. Rant over! |  |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 10:11 - Feb 20 with 1380 views | cbower |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 22:57 - Feb 18 by bluelagos |
They barely touched on the failed prosecutions of the miners charged with riot at Orgreave. Being charged with riot meant they faced lengthy prison sentences.
A young Michael Mansfield represented the miners and noticed that a load of police statements had exactly the same wording, they having been given the exact same things to put in their statements. He exposed their corruption and the prosecutions failed accordingly with the police eventually paying £000s compensation for those the police had stitched up.
Afterwards had a thorough police investigation established exactly who was behind the conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and if they were charged it would have ensured South Yorks coppers knew they couldnt act with impunity.
Instead the police responsible went undisciplined. 5 years later after unlawfully killing 97 footie fans they again treated the UK justice aystem with contempt as they coordinated a cover up rather than hold to account those responsible from their own ranks.
The seeds for the cover up at Hillsborough were sown in the way criminal police actions went unchallenged years earlier. Their sense of impunity was long held. |
Oh boy you're spot on!
"What a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive" | |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 10:24 - Feb 20 with 1345 views | cbower |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 14:37 - Feb 19 by Zapers |
Is Arthur Scargill still a hero to some.
Says it all really. |
Whatever you think of Scargill as a man ( and I am no fan of him in that respect), whilst he undoubtedly made mistakes, had a huge ego and alienated swathes of the public, in terms of the Thatcher plan ( years in the making btw) to destroy the NUM, the mining communties and severely undermine the Trade Union movement, he was unquestionably spot on. | |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 10:55 - Feb 20 with 1291 views | ElephantintheRoom |
The things you chose to see.
Should have tried driving to work every day through secondary pickets |  |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:06 - Feb 20 with 1273 views | leitrimblue |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 10:55 - Feb 20 by ElephantintheRoom |
The things you chose to see.
Should have tried driving to work every day through secondary pickets |
Why were they picketing Burger King? |  | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:14 - Feb 20 with 1248 views | Churchman |
Brought up in a middle class world down south, going to a good school, dad always had a car, holidays, when the miners and steel workers strikes of the 70s into the 80s these people were aliens. The people that turned the lights off and the cupboard bare of sugar, bread you name it. Red Robbo, Jimmy Reid destroying our industries. Beer and sandwiches at No 10, Unions ruling the roost. To my eyes these lowlifes had to be smashed. After all, the Daily Express and BBC was always right.
Ahhh the ignorance of youth. I suppose the first glimmer of questioning was when I attended a wedding in Sheffield. There were lots of people out collecting for the strike fund and seeing these peoples’ faces bothered me. From that as part of my degree I decided to look into the disputes, how they were presented and where the truth lay. Were these people the devil incarnate? What did the media produce, where and why.
What I found completely changed my outlook on so many things. Above all I learned to question. I already knew the history of Trade Unions but I understood a lot better after digging up all I could. The main characters, including Scargill, were not as they were painted. Their cause was just.
Failure of these and other industries had nothing to do with greedy lazy workers, Unions and leaders trying to be politicians. It had everything to do with lack of investment and in the case of Thatchers government care. They just didn’t care, any more than they do now.
In later years, as a member of PCS and friends of mine doing a lot more than me for the Union, I met and chatted with head honcho Mark Serwotka a few times. He is not as the media and politicians paint him.
In conclusion, I learned several key things. Always question and keep an open mind. How you are brought up to perceive things may not be how they are. In later years I got to work far too close to the Tory government. They are worse than they are painted. I wouldn’t p£ss on the likes of Gove if he was on fire. They serve themselves. The media? 85% is misinformation or plain old lies. I’ve seen it first hand.
Lastly, many like certain friends of mine still vilify the Trade Unions. They believe what the media tell them. They are wrong. I’d always recommend people join and support Unions or any association akin to a Union. They are the only protection you have unless you want to rely on the ‘good nature’ of employers. Good luck with that. They are not available to everyone, but if they are, join. Just a view. [Post edited 20 Feb 11:19]
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:23 - Feb 20 with 1229 views | leitrimblue |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 21:15 - Feb 19 by jayessess |
There's a couple of things knocking about - Kevin Hetherington, New Age Travellers: Vanloads of Uproarious Humanity (sociologist), Andy Worthington, The Battle of the Beanfield (investigative journalist, but it's mainly interviews). Chris Coates has a book about communes post-1939, Comunes Britannica, but it's more about fixed communes. |
Cool, thanks, will have a look at them.
What I'm really looking for is the lads who were on the road to record their own history. I think it's really important that social history is at least recorded by the people who were there an lived through it.
What I was thinking of is something a bit similar to the Irish Folklore commission (1937). In which folklore an traditions were collected and recorded from every parish in Ireland.
All available on line through Duchas now
I think someone needs to collect the stories and experiences of this unique culture while it's still possible.(dare I say some of those lads aren't get any younger) | | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:39 - Feb 20 with 1191 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 10:03 - Feb 20 by cbower |
My best friend's father and brother were miners. They stayed out the full strike and it was heartbreaking to see what proud men were forced to endure. We were 16 and that strike politicised me and remains the seminal cornerstone of my loathing of the Tories. Later, when I married, my father-in-law was an ex-miner in Yorkshire. He went back to work 2 weeks before the strike ended, couldn't see his family suffer any more, and I don’t think he ever really forgave himself.
The school where I work is in the centre of ex- mining villages and memories are still raw let me tell you.
Thatcher, undoubtedly the most influential British politician of the 20th Century (including Churchill) remains a malevolent and malignant influence more than 3 decades after she was ousted. I still chuckle every time I see the images of her departing No 10 with tears in her rodentine eyes. When the election comes around this year, whilst Labour are no great shakes right now, I hope people remember who the Tories are, - self aggrandising , contemptible, patronising, largely incòmpetent blaggards. Rant over! |
Clement Attlee's Labour government closed 101 pits between 1947 and 1951; Macmillan (Conservative) closed 246 pits between 1957 and 1963; Wilson (Labour) closed 253 in his two terms in office between 1964 and 1976; Heath (Conservative) closed 26 between 1970 and 1974; and Thatcher (Conservative) closed 115 between 1979 and 1990.
In 2019 the constituency of Bolsover, in the heart of the former mining community, voted for a Conservative MP at the expense of former miner Denis Skinner.
Some people obviously have shorter memories than others.
The only person who benefited from the miners strike was Arthur Scargill. At the start of the strike he had a very big union and a very small house. At the end of the miners strike he had a very small union and a very big house. |  |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:42 - Feb 20 with 1177 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 14:37 - Feb 19 by Zapers |
Is Arthur Scargill still a hero to some.
Says it all really. |
I’ve often wondered what benefit to the mining community was gained by Scargill’s negotiations with Libyan dictator Colonel Gaddafi? It’s as if the strike had nothing to do with protecting jobs. | |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:12 - Feb 20 with 1121 views | DJR |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:42 - Feb 20 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve often wondered what benefit to the mining community was gained by Scargill’s negotiations with Libyan dictator Colonel Gaddafi? It’s as if the strike had nothing to do with protecting jobs. |
The editor of the Mirror who broke that story subsequently apologised to Scargill and concluded.
"I am now convinced that Scargill didn't misuse strike funds and that the union didn't get money from Libya. I also concede that, given the supposed wealth of Maxwell's Mirror and the state of NUM finances, it was understandable that Scargill didn't sue.
Nothing I have said should be taken as criticism of the Mirror trio: we were all taken in. I can't undo what has been done, but I am pleased to offer the sincerest of apologies to Heathfield and to Scargill, who is on the verge of retirement. I regret ever publishing that story. And that is the honest truth."
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2002/may/27/mondaymediasection.politicsandthem |  | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:14 - Feb 20 with 1104 views | Zapers |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:42 - Feb 20 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve often wondered what benefit to the mining community was gained by Scargill’s negotiations with Libyan dictator Colonel Gaddafi? It’s as if the strike had nothing to do with protecting jobs. |
Awful man, he, way more than Thatcher, tried desperately to bring the country to it's knees.
Thatcher was way to smart for the likes of Scargill. | | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:27 - Feb 20 with 1072 views | soupytwist |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:23 - Feb 20 by leitrimblue |
Cool, thanks, will have a look at them.
What I'm really looking for is the lads who were on the road to record their own history. I think it's really important that social history is at least recorded by the people who were there an lived through it.
What I was thinking of is something a bit similar to the Irish Folklore commission (1937). In which folklore an traditions were collected and recorded from every parish in Ireland.
All available on line through Duchas now
I think someone needs to collect the stories and experiences of this unique culture while it's still possible.(dare I say some of those lads aren't get any younger) |
Something similar for the Greenham Common and associated campaigns would be good too.
My aunt was involved in that, maybe I should ask her. |  | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:40 - Feb 20 with 1034 views | JimmyJazz |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:27 - Feb 20 by soupytwist |
Something similar for the Greenham Common and associated campaigns would be good too.
My aunt was involved in that, maybe I should ask her. |
Recent documentary Rebel Dykes touches on Greenham Common, portraying it as some kind of starting point bringing together like minded rebellious females. Worth a watch |  |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:44 - Feb 20 with 1030 views | BarcaBlue |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:39 - Feb 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Clement Attlee's Labour government closed 101 pits between 1947 and 1951; Macmillan (Conservative) closed 246 pits between 1957 and 1963; Wilson (Labour) closed 253 in his two terms in office between 1964 and 1976; Heath (Conservative) closed 26 between 1970 and 1974; and Thatcher (Conservative) closed 115 between 1979 and 1990.
In 2019 the constituency of Bolsover, in the heart of the former mining community, voted for a Conservative MP at the expense of former miner Denis Skinner.
Some people obviously have shorter memories than others.
The only person who benefited from the miners strike was Arthur Scargill. At the start of the strike he had a very big union and a very small house. At the end of the miners strike he had a very small union and a very big house. |
Completely disingenuous but you probably know that. Of course pits were closed when they became unproductive and unviable, and has little to do with who was in government.
Britain is still scarred by Thatcher, not by Scargill. |  | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:47 - Feb 20 with 1016 views | leitrimblue |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:27 - Feb 20 by soupytwist |
Something similar for the Greenham Common and associated campaigns would be good too.
My aunt was involved in that, maybe I should ask her. |
Yer, that's a perfect example. If these social histories aren't recorded now, while the participants ( no reference to yerself stow  ) are still with us they are lost forever.
Then its just left to journalists/writers etc to form a narrative from newspaper and television articles. This just isn't in any way insightful and often doesn't give the subject the justice it deserves.
Actually the Greenham Common women, if they haven't already done so would be an excellent project.
You should definitely ask her. | | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 13:29 - Feb 20 with 952 views | soupytwist |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:47 - Feb 20 by leitrimblue |
Yer, that's a perfect example. If these social histories aren't recorded now, while the participants ( no reference to yerself stow ) are still with us they are lost forever.
Then its just left to journalists/writers etc to form a narrative from newspaper and television articles. This just isn't in any way insightful and often doesn't give the subject the justice it deserves.
Actually the Greenham Common women, if they haven't already done so would be an excellent project.
You should definitely ask her. |
She wasn't at the camp itself for any length of time but did go to several protests there and was involved in the anti-nuclear and hunt sabs scene in Suffolk in the 80s.
Every time I hear something about Sizewell C I think about the big 'Stop the Sizewell B' poster she had in her house on Cemetery Road in Ipswich. | | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 13:32 - Feb 20 with 940 views | HotShotHamish |
Not surprised to see this debate (as usual on here) descend into an anti-tory argument.
Of course it couldn't be framed as the unions wanting to take down the government (far closer to the truth).
The facts clearly show that Thatcher closed far fewer mines than most, if not all, her recent predecessors. The unions thought they would force the government to back down as they had done before but they clearly forgot that the government had been stockpiling coal in case there was a strike.
It's easy to find the facts about pit closures - just google it. | | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 13:38 - Feb 20 with 910 views | Zapers |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:44 - Feb 20 by BarcaBlue |
Completely disingenuous but you probably know that. Of course pits were closed when they became unproductive and unviable, and has little to do with who was in government.
Britain is still scarred by Thatcher, not by Scargill. |
You cannot be serious. Hahahahahaha | | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 14:41 - Feb 20 with 853 views | buoyant |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 13:38 - Feb 20 by Zapers |
You cannot be serious. Hahahahahaha |
The over reliance of the financial sector, deregulation and privatisation of socially responsible industries is her legacy.
She did nothing to tackle unemployment and offered no alternatives to the communities leaving them and those families devastation.
The north south divide was broadened in the 20 yrs they were in power, with little hope of redistribution even now. |  |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 14:53 - Feb 20 with 834 views | BloomBlue |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 12:44 - Feb 20 by BarcaBlue |
Completely disingenuous but you probably know that. Of course pits were closed when they became unproductive and unviable, and has little to do with who was in government.
Britain is still scarred by Thatcher, not by Scargill. |
Sorry but you're wrong. Nearly every pit was operating at a loss, millions of tax payers money was poured into the mines to keep open an economically non viable business.
People forget the national humiliation of Britain under Labour in 1978 being the largest ever recipient of IMF bailout funds which were needed to keep subsidising things like Coal mines in Britain.
The problem was coal demand had decreased dramatically, especially since WWII. British Rail for example had moved from coal/steam entirely to diesel. Central heating oil/gas instead of coal fires. Governments had already started looking at more nuclear power stations instead of coal.
Old King Coal Scargill slso messed up on the Union front. He called a national strike based purely on a regional vote and claimed it negated the need for a national vote. But some regional unions disagreed with that and wanted a national vote and without it that is why some, like Nottinghamshire, refused to join the strike. Which weakened the strike from the start.
Scargill's demand was no coal pit should be closed even if it was operating at a loss.
Even up to 2008 Scargill was claiming Britain had got it wrong and we should have continued building more coal power stations as they're cheaper to run than nuclear.
What I've never understood about Scargill, some of the worst industrial diseases discovered are associated with coal mining, why would a trade unionist even want to expose working people to those. Surely he should have been calling for the mines to be closed to protect the workers not demand the mines stay open |  | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 14:55 - Feb 20 with 829 views | BarcaBlue |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 14:41 - Feb 20 by buoyant |
The over reliance of the financial sector, deregulation and privatisation of socially responsible industries is her legacy.
She did nothing to tackle unemployment and offered no alternatives to the communities leaving them and those families devastation.
The north south divide was broadened in the 20 yrs they were in power, with little hope of redistribution even now. |
Internationally she provided asylum for a fascist torture loving dictator and prolonged apartheid. Apparently she's still a hero for some. | | | |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 15:13 - Feb 20 with 789 views | Radlett_blue |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 08:06 - Feb 19 by ITFC_Forever |
Just a thought as well, and I'm sure you've touched on it, it's very likely some of the officers at Orgreave were also at Hillsborough on 15th April 1989, especially the more specialist ones such as mounted police etc. |
The carnage at Hillsborough was almost entirley due to the incompetent Duckenfield losing his head, not down to the rank & file or specialist officers.
The cover-up after Hillsborough was to my mind far more shameful than Duckenfield cracking under pressure. Senior officers like the laughably still knighted Norman Bettison altered honest statements from police officers, so as to propogate the myth that the problems were caused by "drunken, ticketless fans". |  |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 15:23 - Feb 20 with 759 views | ITFC_Forever |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 15:13 - Feb 20 by Radlett_blue |
The carnage at Hillsborough was almost entirley due to the incompetent Duckenfield losing his head, not down to the rank & file or specialist officers.
The cover-up after Hillsborough was to my mind far more shameful than Duckenfield cracking under pressure. Senior officers like the laughably still knighted Norman Bettison altered honest statements from police officers, so as to propogate the myth that the problems were caused by "drunken, ticketless fans". |
Yes, I know Duckenfield was to blame on the day, the subsequent cover up was SYP and West Mids covering up.... but the initial response to the problems at the Leppings Lane end was to assume it was football fans causing trouble and (by some officers) to forcibly push people off the fences they were climbing to escape and back into the pens, and generally treat them like scum.
And it was a more general point that it is likely there would have been officers at both events, whether they were involved directly in the bad stuff the police did or not. |  |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 16:16 - Feb 20 with 713 views | cbower |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 11:14 - Feb 20 by Churchman |
Brought up in a middle class world down south, going to a good school, dad always had a car, holidays, when the miners and steel workers strikes of the 70s into the 80s these people were aliens. The people that turned the lights off and the cupboard bare of sugar, bread you name it. Red Robbo, Jimmy Reid destroying our industries. Beer and sandwiches at No 10, Unions ruling the roost. To my eyes these lowlifes had to be smashed. After all, the Daily Express and BBC was always right.
Ahhh the ignorance of youth. I suppose the first glimmer of questioning was when I attended a wedding in Sheffield. There were lots of people out collecting for the strike fund and seeing these peoples’ faces bothered me. From that as part of my degree I decided to look into the disputes, how they were presented and where the truth lay. Were these people the devil incarnate? What did the media produce, where and why.
What I found completely changed my outlook on so many things. Above all I learned to question. I already knew the history of Trade Unions but I understood a lot better after digging up all I could. The main characters, including Scargill, were not as they were painted. Their cause was just.
Failure of these and other industries had nothing to do with greedy lazy workers, Unions and leaders trying to be politicians. It had everything to do with lack of investment and in the case of Thatchers government care. They just didn’t care, any more than they do now.
In later years, as a member of PCS and friends of mine doing a lot more than me for the Union, I met and chatted with head honcho Mark Serwotka a few times. He is not as the media and politicians paint him.
In conclusion, I learned several key things. Always question and keep an open mind. How you are brought up to perceive things may not be how they are. In later years I got to work far too close to the Tory government. They are worse than they are painted. I wouldn’t p£ss on the likes of Gove if he was on fire. They serve themselves. The media? 85% is misinformation or plain old lies. I’ve seen it first hand.
Lastly, many like certain friends of mine still vilify the Trade Unions. They believe what the media tell them. They are wrong. I’d always recommend people join and support Unions or any association akin to a Union. They are the only protection you have unless you want to rely on the ‘good nature’ of employers. Good luck with that. They are not available to everyone, but if they are, join. Just a view. [Post edited 20 Feb 11:19]
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"Always question"- superb stuff. Really great read, thank you! | |
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| Miners strike, the front line. on 16:42 - Feb 20 with 672 views | bluelagos |
| Miners strike, the front line. on 15:13 - Feb 20 by Radlett_blue |
The carnage at Hillsborough was almost entirley due to the incompetent Duckenfield losing his head, not down to the rank & file or specialist officers.
The cover-up after Hillsborough was to my mind far more shameful than Duckenfield cracking under pressure. Senior officers like the laughably still knighted Norman Bettison altered honest statements from police officers, so as to propogate the myth that the problems were caused by "drunken, ticketless fans". |
Clearly Duckenfield as the match commander carries the most responsibility for the failures of the police operation. No argument there.
And I actually agree - I feel more contempt for those actively involved in the cover up given that was a considered approach they adopted.
But to present the rank and file as beyond reproach in this is more than a tad disingenuous.
It was rank and file officers on the fences who pushed fans back into the terraces. It was rank and file officers who stood in a line on the pitch rather than helping those trying to aid the dead and injured. Plenty of witnessed have stated those same officers impeded their attempts to help - threatening to arrest those for example taking advertising boards.
It was rank and file officers who were the mounted officers who made things worse outside the stadium in their crass and aggressive policing that made crushing outside the stadium worse. Their behaviour was so poor the IOPC have a special section in their final report just for them (When it comes) So poor I took a number to make a complaint of one of them (Long before anyone died)
And it was the rank and file officers in the gymnasium refusing to let parents hug their dead children, swearing at people like Trevor Hicks to "shut his fcking prattle"
It was the rank and file who lined up to give dishonest testimony - or how about the officer stood on one the gates (leading to the pitch) who said in his statement that the fans on the terrace displayed "anamalistic behaviour". Imagine writing that about fans trying to save their and their mates lives. Beyond contempt.
During the immediate days, weeks and months not one rank and file officer spoke out against the cover up. Not one. Their own fed rep was gobbing off to the TV and the lies were being fed to the scum newspaper and how many spoke out?
The reasons why they stood around doing fck all to help people and then later actively took part in the cover up - at absolute best saying nothing about it - just keeping quiet - it is for them to try and justify.
I think it's because the whole police force was rotten to the core. How can anyone of any integrity stand by and watch their own colleagues mislead a public inquiry into how innocent people died - again it's behaviour that is beneath contempt. They were all, every single one of them complicit in that cover up.
So whilst I accept there were a handful who did more than others to actually help (unlike the majority) on the day - even they then went along with the lies.
Duckenfield was clearly the worst of the worst in his culpability but he was aided by incompetent, aggressive and sh1tty policing by many of those he was in charge of.
And ask yourself this - just how many dead bodies would you need to see before you went to help? Because for the vast majority of the rank and file it was 97. They stood around and did sfa to help anyone.
Appreciate that's not what how they remember it - I guess the truth is more than a little unpleasant for most of them. |  |
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