| What would you do? Fight or not? 16:01 - Jun 6 with 10988 views | victorywilhappen |
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/06/mobilisation-squads-face-h
The reality is there are not enough troops and more weapons need Soldiers not
deserters, objectors or those who want to make money abroad rather than fight.
The war is still being fought by middle-aged men in the main. The Infantry was in the past a young man's game. Hence Infant-try. The young abroad and being protected. Others are sitting cafes in Kiev, others are fighting on the frontline.
What will happen? [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 10:52]
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 11:17 - Jun 7 with 3005 views | mutters |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 16:07 - Jun 6 by J2BLUE |
The younger generations are not cut out for war.
I very much include myself in that at 36 years old.
I would be crying and wanting to phone my mum after ten minutes. |
I disagree. The younger lot get a unfair rap due to the lifestyle they lead, how soft it is etc. however it is the previous generations who have created this environment and let's be honest we all want our children's lives to be easier and better than our own. They get tagged with the soft brush because they aren't out there getting blown up in wars or working 18 hours days. I don't want my daughter to live her life like that.
Ultimately you don't ever really know how people would react until you put them in that situation. I have always said I would never join the military, or fight for my country as I don't believe I am tough enough both physically or mentally. However you put my loved ones life's in danger and I will do whatever it takes to protect them. |  |
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 11:50 - Jun 7 with 2953 views | DJR |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 11:09 - Jun 7 by bluejacko |
Look at the names and ranks of those killed in Normandy! Plenty of DVR (ROAC) etc on those plinths!
Soldier first tradesman second is the way of the British Army. |
My father and father-in-law had both been to grammar school, and (from what my father said) I think that is why they ended up in administrative roles.
These days, with many more people being educated to degree level, the chances of ending up with such a role would presumably be much less.
As it is my father never fired a gun in anger, but he was a mean machine when it came to sorting paperclips. [Post edited 7 Jun 2024 12:10]
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 13:00 - Jun 7 with 2898 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
"The Infantry was in the past a young man's game. Hence Infant-try."
That has to be the hottest of hot-takes I've ever seen. |  |
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 13:09 - Jun 7 with 2875 views | baxterbasics |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 05:56 - Jun 7 by Pippin1970 |
Unfortunately mobilisation wouldn't happen. As soon as Russia is on EU country doorstep. Then everything will be in the sky or threat of Nuclear warfare. Cyber war too to impact on countries as well. |
This was kind of my point earlier... I can't us getting to the point where we or any other NATO country is directly engaging with Russia, without it escalating to this very quickly. Which is why everyone is so desperate to avoid it. Putin included, I hope... unless he is truly that mad, in which case we rely on cooler heads around him to intervene. |  |
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 17:48 - Jun 7 with 2803 views | victorywilhappen |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 13:00 - Jun 7 by Cheltenham_Blue |
"The Infantry was in the past a young man's game. Hence Infant-try."
That has to be the hottest of hot-takes I've ever seen. |
'The word derives from Middle French infanterie, from older Italian (also Spanish) infanteria (foot soldiers too inexperienced for cavalry), from Latin īnfāns (without speech, newborn, foolish), from which English also gets infant. The individual-soldier term infantryman was not coined until 1837'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry#:~:text=The%20word%20derives%20from%20Mid
Maybe it was my double T ? | | | |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 23:21 - Jun 7 with 2722 views | AndrewRatcliffITFC |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 22:41 - Jun 6 by StokieBlue |
That makes no sense, you've swallowed the Putin propaganda.
There were previously nuclear weapons in Ukraine, the agreed to give them up if the US and Russia agreed to defend them if required so that's a non-starter argument (and unfortunately neither side kept their side of the bargain). The location of nukes nowadays is also almost irrelevant - it's incredibly hard to intercept a ballistic missile and any launch would be picked up immediately so travel time preventing retaliation is also irrelevant - it's not the 1970s.
Ukraine were not a NATO member and weren't really on the list to become one. The Russian invasion has actually brought NATO closer to their borders with the admission of Finland so proximity of NATO isn't a good argument.
What has actually happens is during Covid Putin spent ages looking at old maps and decided he quite liked the look of the maps with Ukraine as part of Russia. Since then he's launched an invasion which has caused hundreds of thousands of casualties and destroyed large parts of a country who hadn't actually threatened Russia.
So it's really not a great look that you're trying to excuse the actions of Russia in this case.
SB |
Ukraine was absolutely on the list to become a Nato member along with Georgia. It was clearly stated at the pivotal Nato conference in Bucharest in 2008 that they would become members. The Russians have been saying for years they are not happy with Nato's eastern expansion. It's a strategic blunder of epic proportions and now Ukraine tragically is paying the price. |  | | |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 00:19 - Jun 8 with 2693 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 23:21 - Jun 7 by AndrewRatcliffITFC |
Ukraine was absolutely on the list to become a Nato member along with Georgia. It was clearly stated at the pivotal Nato conference in Bucharest in 2008 that they would become members. The Russians have been saying for years they are not happy with Nato's eastern expansion. It's a strategic blunder of epic proportions and now Ukraine tragically is paying the price. |
NATO is not expanding eastward swallowing up nations, countries are choosing to join NATO because they are terrified of Russia. And with good reason, Putin has invaded Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, and Crimea all in the last 15 years. Being ‘unhappy with NATO’s expansion’ is a weak as p1ss excuse given that Russia had bordered NATO since 1949, this is not some new development. Unless Putin is thick as sh1t (and in fairness there’s a lot of evidence to support that), he must have known invading one of his neighbours might prompt other neighbours to join NATO. Finland’s new membership means he’s now added another 800 miles of NATO fortified borders to Russia, so he’s directly responsible for NATO surrounding ever more of Russian’s European borders. It’s amazing how many people fail to understand that. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 0:27]
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 10:48 - Jun 8 with 2595 views | victorywilhappen |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 00:19 - Jun 8 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
NATO is not expanding eastward swallowing up nations, countries are choosing to join NATO because they are terrified of Russia. And with good reason, Putin has invaded Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, and Crimea all in the last 15 years. Being ‘unhappy with NATO’s expansion’ is a weak as p1ss excuse given that Russia had bordered NATO since 1949, this is not some new development. Unless Putin is thick as sh1t (and in fairness there’s a lot of evidence to support that), he must have known invading one of his neighbours might prompt other neighbours to join NATO. Finland’s new membership means he’s now added another 800 miles of NATO fortified borders to Russia, so he’s directly responsible for NATO surrounding ever more of Russian’s European borders. It’s amazing how many people fail to understand that. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 0:27]
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From today. A long read. Interesting.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/08/putin-war-ukraine-forgotte | | | |
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 19:44 - Jun 8 with 2475 views | Trequartista |
Russia aren't going to be attacking the UK in a conventional war. They can't even take Kharkhiv two and half a years into the war - it's 12 miles from Russia. If they send nukes though its all over. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 19:44]
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| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 20:05 - Jun 8 with 2439 views | DJR |
In principle, I would be a conscientious objector but I am not sure I would have the courage. | | | |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 20:10 - Jun 8 with 2424 views | WeWereZombies |
That's a must read, vital stuff and the closing two lines 'When will we learn that war begets war? Violence always begets violence.' underlines my own pacifism. Which is also strengthened by the time my uncle related one of his experiences in the Mediterranean during the Second World War. I haven't signed the Official Secrets Act myself but out of respect for him will not relate his part in the incident. However this veteran of four years in the Med on convoys between Alexandria and Malta, the Battle of Cape Matapan, the capitulation of the Nazis in Algeria and Tunisia, the acceptance of surrender of small islands off Sicily, the support of the Allied invasion along the west coast of Italy as far as Naples and then a year or so on the Arctic Convoys finished with 'War is the worst thing in the World, never go to war.' |  |
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| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 20:20 - Jun 8 with 2411 views | DJR |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 20:10 - Jun 8 by WeWereZombies |
That's a must read, vital stuff and the closing two lines 'When will we learn that war begets war? Violence always begets violence.' underlines my own pacifism. Which is also strengthened by the time my uncle related one of his experiences in the Mediterranean during the Second World War. I haven't signed the Official Secrets Act myself but out of respect for him will not relate his part in the incident. However this veteran of four years in the Med on convoys between Alexandria and Malta, the Battle of Cape Matapan, the capitulation of the Nazis in Algeria and Tunisia, the acceptance of surrender of small islands off Sicily, the support of the Allied invasion along the west coast of Italy as far as Naples and then a year or so on the Arctic Convoys finished with 'War is the worst thing in the World, never go to war.' |
There was polling during the Brexit vote which indicated that those who were old enough (probably born before 1930) to have actually experienced the war were more pro-European than the generation that followed because they understood the horrors of war and one of the main purposes of the EU, namely, peace.
My mother fell into that category. [Post edited 8 Jun 2024 20:30]
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| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 08:32 - Jun 10 with 2218 views | bluejacko |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 20:10 - Jun 8 by WeWereZombies |
That's a must read, vital stuff and the closing two lines 'When will we learn that war begets war? Violence always begets violence.' underlines my own pacifism. Which is also strengthened by the time my uncle related one of his experiences in the Mediterranean during the Second World War. I haven't signed the Official Secrets Act myself but out of respect for him will not relate his part in the incident. However this veteran of four years in the Med on convoys between Alexandria and Malta, the Battle of Cape Matapan, the capitulation of the Nazis in Algeria and Tunisia, the acceptance of surrender of small islands off Sicily, the support of the Allied invasion along the west coast of Italy as far as Naples and then a year or so on the Arctic Convoys finished with 'War is the worst thing in the World, never go to war.' |
While I accept your opion and your beliefs, how does pacifism stop madmen like pootin from invading other countries? He clearly has no respect or concern for his own people let alone any others. Your pacifism will not stop this in fact it will only encourage the madmen even more if they think they can just walk in and take over! | | | |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 08:41 - Jun 10 with 2202 views | StokieBlue |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 23:21 - Jun 7 by AndrewRatcliffITFC |
Ukraine was absolutely on the list to become a Nato member along with Georgia. It was clearly stated at the pivotal Nato conference in Bucharest in 2008 that they would become members. The Russians have been saying for years they are not happy with Nato's eastern expansion. It's a strategic blunder of epic proportions and now Ukraine tragically is paying the price. |
So over 15 years ago and yet nothing really had happened towards NATO membership.
What has accelerated NATO membership and definitely moved the eastern border closer to Russia is Russian aggression, there is no way Finland were joining before the invasion of Ukraine.
It's pretty tiresome the number of posters trying to shift the blame away from Russia, a country who has looked to expand it's borders through military action numerous times over the last 20 years.
SB |  | | |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 09:06 - Jun 10 with 2162 views | Churchman |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 08:41 - Jun 10 by StokieBlue |
So over 15 years ago and yet nothing really had happened towards NATO membership.
What has accelerated NATO membership and definitely moved the eastern border closer to Russia is Russian aggression, there is no way Finland were joining before the invasion of Ukraine.
It's pretty tiresome the number of posters trying to shift the blame away from Russia, a country who has looked to expand it's borders through military action numerous times over the last 20 years.
SB |
NATO was utterly defensive in its creation and has been ever since. You only have to see its composition to know that.
To describe NATO as expansionist or threatening is ludicrous. Sovereign countries wishing to join it for mutual defence is logical. When Russia say it’s a threat to them they really mean these countries they consider theirs are satellites, sub countries, within their sphere of influence and they’ll use any map from history to prove their point.
Putin is a dictator. A madman with no value whatsoever on other people’s lives. None. The difference between him, Hitler, Tojo and the Japanese madmen and Stalin? Not a huge amount. Scale maybe, but that’s about it. To even suggest he wants peace is not true. Like all dictators, he’s a scared little man that loses his fear by pushing outwards. Ukraine, resource wise, is potentially a rich country. Poland, Balkans, Baltics, Finland provide him with £££, status and ‘security’ in his own power.
The idea that war should never be fought is totally right. It shouldn’t. Violent death is a truly appalling, ugly thing. Avoid at all costs? Almost - sometimes it just has to be, unless you really don’t value or even fear freedom. WW2, WW1 and Ukraine are proof of that and also proof of how mad it all is.
But yes, it’s tiresome to hear the apologists for Putin trying to somehow justify his actions in the blind hope the problem will go away. If history teaches us anything, it’s that it won’t go away. [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 12:28]
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 09:07 - Jun 10 with 2160 views | victorywilhappen |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 08:41 - Jun 10 by StokieBlue |
So over 15 years ago and yet nothing really had happened towards NATO membership.
What has accelerated NATO membership and definitely moved the eastern border closer to Russia is Russian aggression, there is no way Finland were joining before the invasion of Ukraine.
It's pretty tiresome the number of posters trying to shift the blame away from Russia, a country who has looked to expand it's borders through military action numerous times over the last 20 years.
SB |
The Swedish were ahead on this.The build-up and possibilities were on display- Sweden acted early. Much of the West ignored what was happening until too late. Pessimism aversion. Many are still ignoring it and are only concerned about making money out of conflicts.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/02/sweden-reintroduce-conscription-am | | | |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 09:31 - Jun 10 with 2102 views | Radlett_blue |
I don't quite get the down votes for this post, which seems to be saying that modern men don't want to join up, as it won't be much fun or well paid & has a good chance of resulting in death or serious injury. |  |
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 09:33 - Jun 10 with 2097 views | victorywilhappen |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 08:41 - Jun 10 by StokieBlue |
So over 15 years ago and yet nothing really had happened towards NATO membership.
What has accelerated NATO membership and definitely moved the eastern border closer to Russia is Russian aggression, there is no way Finland were joining before the invasion of Ukraine.
It's pretty tiresome the number of posters trying to shift the blame away from Russia, a country who has looked to expand it's borders through military action numerous times over the last 20 years.
SB |
Just not sure Finland had the public support to join NaTO and did not want to provoke its big neighbour This article suggests there was alignment and plans happening in preparation
The beginning of Finland’s journey to NATO can be dated back to the early 1990s. It joined the Partnership for Peace Programme in 1994 and immediately became a contributor to the Alliance’s crisis-management operations. From late 1990s to early 2010s, the country subsequently took several important steps that brought it closer to NATO.
https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2023/08/30/logical-but-unexpected-witn | | | |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 09:35 - Jun 10 with 2082 views | WeWereZombies |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 08:32 - Jun 10 by bluejacko |
While I accept your opion and your beliefs, how does pacifism stop madmen like pootin from invading other countries? He clearly has no respect or concern for his own people let alone any others. Your pacifism will not stop this in fact it will only encourage the madmen even more if they think they can just walk in and take over! |
You undermine the madmen by treating the ordinary citizens of other countries as just that - ordinary citizens. And never pass up an opportunity to do so.
I was in Namibia four months ago and walking up to Town Square in Windhoek I saw a stall selling T-shirts with pictures of Putin on them. Really ? Yes, when i walked up I saw that my eyes had not deceived me and indeed there were, amongst the Ché T-shirts and slightly less chi-chi Lenin T-shirts, ones with a photo of Putin on them and even ones with an image of Stalin on them. How to take a photo of this bizarre sight ? I brazened it out with the stallholder and found that he was Serbian. We had an interesting, cool and not at all in agreement conversation and I got my photo (complete with him in his Soviet era furry hat - the market economy, eh?) I even bought a T-shirt, but from the Bob Marley etc. side of the produce, as a sort of thankyou for the snap...
The conversation was useful, not just for him (I hope) but for me when I see interviews with Julius Malema and Fikele Mbalula as they counter accusations of cosying up to Putin, when he has an ICC warrant outstanding against him, by asking why the ICC did not issue warrants against Blair and Bush when no weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. It isn't as simple as that but the point has traction for people who lived under apartheid and now see land reform as slow to happen and not that useful when and where it does.
I could build up my argument along these lines (and others) but to cut to the chase, certainly people like Hitler and Putin are terrible leaders whose decisions costs millions of lives but it is the willingness of ordinary citizens to give them a mandate which results in the disasters. And we need to bear that in mind when we decide who we want to lead us.
Recommended reading: 'A Pacifist At War' by Ray Jenkins, the biography of Francis Cammaerts | |
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| What would you do? Fight or not? on 09:35 - Jun 10 with 2083 views | victorywilhappen |
| What would you do? Fight or not? on 09:31 - Jun 10 by Radlett_blue |
I don't quite get the down votes for this post, which seems to be saying that modern men don't want to join up, as it won't be much fun or well paid & has a good chance of resulting in death or serious injury. |
The ones downvoting. Didn't join the conversation. So we will never know. | | | |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 10:25 - Jun 10 with 2011 views | bluejacko |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 09:35 - Jun 10 by WeWereZombies |
You undermine the madmen by treating the ordinary citizens of other countries as just that - ordinary citizens. And never pass up an opportunity to do so.
I was in Namibia four months ago and walking up to Town Square in Windhoek I saw a stall selling T-shirts with pictures of Putin on them. Really ? Yes, when i walked up I saw that my eyes had not deceived me and indeed there were, amongst the Ché T-shirts and slightly less chi-chi Lenin T-shirts, ones with a photo of Putin on them and even ones with an image of Stalin on them. How to take a photo of this bizarre sight ? I brazened it out with the stallholder and found that he was Serbian. We had an interesting, cool and not at all in agreement conversation and I got my photo (complete with him in his Soviet era furry hat - the market economy, eh?) I even bought a T-shirt, but from the Bob Marley etc. side of the produce, as a sort of thankyou for the snap...
The conversation was useful, not just for him (I hope) but for me when I see interviews with Julius Malema and Fikele Mbalula as they counter accusations of cosying up to Putin, when he has an ICC warrant outstanding against him, by asking why the ICC did not issue warrants against Blair and Bush when no weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. It isn't as simple as that but the point has traction for people who lived under apartheid and now see land reform as slow to happen and not that useful when and where it does.
I could build up my argument along these lines (and others) but to cut to the chase, certainly people like Hitler and Putin are terrible leaders whose decisions costs millions of lives but it is the willingness of ordinary citizens to give them a mandate which results in the disasters. And we need to bear that in mind when we decide who we want to lead us.
Recommended reading: 'A Pacifist At War' by Ray Jenkins, the biography of Francis Cammaerts |
So then IF pootin was invading our country what exactly would you do? Please give any instances of where pacifism has actually worked against an invader. | | | |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 10:31 - Jun 10 with 2002 views | leitrimblue |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 10:25 - Jun 10 by bluejacko |
So then IF pootin was invading our country what exactly would you do? Please give any instances of where pacifism has actually worked against an invader. |
I don't mind fighting as long as it doesn't start to early in the morning. Definitely not before half nine, I wanna have breakfast and a couple of coffees first |  | | |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 10:41 - Jun 10 with 1988 views | bluejacko |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 10:31 - Jun 10 by leitrimblue |
I don't mind fighting as long as it doesn't start to early in the morning. Definitely not before half nine, I wanna have breakfast and a couple of coffees first |
Don’t forget getting your wee one off to school😉 | | | |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 10:45 - Jun 10 with 1977 views | leitrimblue |
| Eight conscientious objectors on why they refused to serve in the army on 10:41 - Jun 10 by bluejacko |
Don’t forget getting your wee one off to school😉 |
Good point, once I've had a good breakfast and finished the school run I'm in  | | | |
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