| The case against proportional representation in one word....... 07:31 - Jul 5 with 5375 views | BlueNomad |
Reform |  | | |  |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:07 - Jul 5 with 2010 views | Pinewoodblue |
Wasn’t able to follow your link as it didn’t recognise I was human.
Voting against the one you don’t want, as the French system encourages you to, is crazy. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:09 - Jul 5 with 1981 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:07 - Jul 5 by Pinewoodblue |
Wasn’t able to follow your link as it didn’t recognise I was human.
Voting against the one you don’t want, as the French system encourages you to, is crazy. |
Excatly! Can anything be more French than voting against the candidate you least like? |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:10 - Jul 5 with 1980 views | GeoffSentence |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:01 - Jul 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Welcome? I've advocated PR for at least twenty years. [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 10:02]
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Sorry if I have that wrong, but I thought I recalled you advocating for FPTP in the past. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:10 - Jul 5 with 1977 views | DJR |
Here's the Electoral Reform Society take, showing votes per seat etc.
https://election2024.electoral-reform.org.uk/
Votes per seat.
Labour 23,000
Green 483,000
Reform over 1 million
This is just not democratic. [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 10:13]
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:16 - Jul 5 with 1905 views | positivity |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:07 - Jul 5 by Pinewoodblue |
Wasn’t able to follow your link as it didn’t recognise I was human.
Voting against the one you don’t want, as the French system encourages you to, is crazy. |
it worked for me, if you are a robot you don't get to vote anyway!
you still get to vote for your preferred candidate in the first round and in the 2nd round it's your preferred client of the ones remaining.
it's not my favourite system, but a vote against would make sense tome,you might be torn between labour and green, but defiitely don't want ukip/bnp/reform, so that system guards against extremism |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:17 - Jul 5 with 1898 views | GeoffSentence |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:10 - Jul 5 by DJR |
Here's the Electoral Reform Society take, showing votes per seat etc.
https://election2024.electoral-reform.org.uk/
Votes per seat.
Labour 23,000
Green 483,000
Reform over 1 million
This is just not democratic. [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 10:13]
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This may be the best, most progressive thing about this election, there seems to be an upswell in support for PR as the result of the patently disproportionate share of votes/seat | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:22 - Jul 5 with 1854 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:17 - Jul 5 by GeoffSentence |
This may be the best, most progressive thing about this election, there seems to be an upswell in support for PR as the result of the patently disproportionate share of votes/seat |
I always felt that for more people to think about PR we needed a ridiculously disproportional result to make it very obvious.
I suspect Farage will bang on about this a lot during this Parliament.... | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:29 - Jul 5 with 1813 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:22 - Jul 5 by Ewan_Oozami |
I always felt that for more people to think about PR we needed a ridiculously disproportional result to make it very obvious.
I suspect Farage will bang on about this a lot during this Parliament.... |
Five years to next election far more important things to sort out. | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:39 - Jul 5 with 1790 views | GeoffSentence |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:29 - Jul 5 by Pinewoodblue |
Five years to next election far more important things to sort out. |
My feeling is they won't touch PR this term but will put it in their manifesto next time. | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 11:18 - Jul 5 with 1756 views | baxterbasics |
You either accept the potential negative outcomes of the proposed system or reject it outright.
PR can and does give extreme fringe parties a foot in the door. Look across Europe now. The likes of Geert Wilders getting a sniff of power. That's the price you pay if you want a more proportional outcome. Add to that the problem that often there is no clear majority and weeks or even months of negotiations are required between the parties to figure out a government. Often requiring compromises that satisfy nobody. Remember the moaning in 2010 when Tories and Libs formed a coalition? Well you'll get that every time, perhaps x10.
I'm not saying we definitely shouldn't go this way here, let's just be clear on what it means before we take that leap. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 11:34 - Jul 5 with 1728 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 11:18 - Jul 5 by baxterbasics |
You either accept the potential negative outcomes of the proposed system or reject it outright.
PR can and does give extreme fringe parties a foot in the door. Look across Europe now. The likes of Geert Wilders getting a sniff of power. That's the price you pay if you want a more proportional outcome. Add to that the problem that often there is no clear majority and weeks or even months of negotiations are required between the parties to figure out a government. Often requiring compromises that satisfy nobody. Remember the moaning in 2010 when Tories and Libs formed a coalition? Well you'll get that every time, perhaps x10.
I'm not saying we definitely shouldn't go this way here, let's just be clear on what it means before we take that leap. |
Indeed, it needs to be thought through very carefully - most of those other countries that use PR have a written consitution, which must be abided by, which is why it can take a while before a viable government is formed - the UK does not have a written constitution and that may actually be a pre-requisite before we can get some form of workable PR | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 11:41 - Jul 5 with 1716 views | DJR |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 11:34 - Jul 5 by Ewan_Oozami |
Indeed, it needs to be thought through very carefully - most of those other countries that use PR have a written consitution, which must be abided by, which is why it can take a while before a viable government is formed - the UK does not have a written constitution and that may actually be a pre-requisite before we can get some form of workable PR |
It would be possible (and necessary) to legislate for this, as is the case for Scottish Parliamentary elections. | | | |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 15:58 - Jul 5 with 1646 views | DJR |
From the Guardian.
The UK’s first past the post electoral system produces some very obvious distortions – Labour won close to two-thirds of Commons seats on around a third of the popular vote – and some of these have been crunched and collated by Make Votes Matter, a pro-proportional representation campaign group.
It found that 58% of people who voted have ended up with an MP different to the party they chose, a record high. In all, 74% of votes were what it called “non decisive” – either cast for a losing candidate, or above the margin of victory for the winner. | | | |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 16:35 - Jul 5 with 1597 views | Clapham_Junction |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 11:18 - Jul 5 by baxterbasics |
You either accept the potential negative outcomes of the proposed system or reject it outright.
PR can and does give extreme fringe parties a foot in the door. Look across Europe now. The likes of Geert Wilders getting a sniff of power. That's the price you pay if you want a more proportional outcome. Add to that the problem that often there is no clear majority and weeks or even months of negotiations are required between the parties to figure out a government. Often requiring compromises that satisfy nobody. Remember the moaning in 2010 when Tories and Libs formed a coalition? Well you'll get that every time, perhaps x10.
I'm not saying we definitely shouldn't go this way here, let's just be clear on what it means before we take that leap. |
I think the PR causing extremism argument is nonsense. France has the largest far-right party in Europe and doesn't use PR. Parties also don't need to be elected to be influential - UKIP arguably had more of an impact than any fringe right-wing party in Europe despite never winning a seat at a general election.
Coalition government are normal around the world - the issue for the UK is that it requires grown up politics - both in terms of accepting compromises and maintaining a cordon sanitaire against real extremists. [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 16:35]
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 16:49 - Jul 5 with 1570 views | Churchman |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:21 - Jul 5 by DJR |
But maybe at the next election Reform will get 34% of the vote, like Labour, and with a similarly large majority.
Would an unfettered Reform be a welcome development? [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 8:22]
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I am a great believer in every vote counting. If it did I suspect more people would be enticed to vote and more would think about who they were voting for and why. Any serious scrutiny would see the end of Farage and his odious bunch. How anybody voted for that thing is beyond me.
If Reform got 34% of the vote, they’d deserve 34% representation. FPTP appears geared towards preserved power between the two parties. However, we might have seen the end of the Tories in current form. If we have, even more reason for PR. A one party state, which is what we will now have possibly indefinitely, can never be healthy.
So still Proportional Representation for me. |  | | |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 17:02 - Jul 5 with 1547 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:21 - Jul 5 by DJR |
But maybe at the next election Reform will get 34% of the vote, like Labour, and with a similarly large majority.
Would an unfettered Reform be a welcome development? [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 8:22]
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I was arguing for proportional representation too! |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 17:04 - Jul 5 with 1544 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 15:58 - Jul 5 by DJR |
From the Guardian.
The UK’s first past the post electoral system produces some very obvious distortions – Labour won close to two-thirds of Commons seats on around a third of the popular vote – and some of these have been crunched and collated by Make Votes Matter, a pro-proportional representation campaign group.
It found that 58% of people who voted have ended up with an MP different to the party they chose, a record high. In all, 74% of votes were what it called “non decisive” – either cast for a losing candidate, or above the margin of victory for the winner. |
Whilst that is accurate, it should also be noted that their vote share was 50% higher than the closest next party. | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 17:09 - Jul 5 with 1529 views | chicoazul |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:56 - Jul 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Getting a result you don’t like isn’t a reason to continue with an undemocratic electoral system. |
Our deliberately imperfect system is a protection of our *freedoms* rather than democracy. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 21:52 - Jul 5 with 1414 views | Churchman |
None | | | |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 23:01 - Jul 5 with 1379 views | Europablue |
You have to choose your system and fairly allow the people to choose based on the system. It is very dangerous to design a system to keep specific people out of power or to not represent them. | | | |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 23:25 - Jul 5 with 1365 views | positivity |
an stv map would be interesting, but much trickier to do | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 06:51 - Jul 6 with 1290 views | WeWereZombies |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 11:18 - Jul 5 by baxterbasics |
You either accept the potential negative outcomes of the proposed system or reject it outright.
PR can and does give extreme fringe parties a foot in the door. Look across Europe now. The likes of Geert Wilders getting a sniff of power. That's the price you pay if you want a more proportional outcome. Add to that the problem that often there is no clear majority and weeks or even months of negotiations are required between the parties to figure out a government. Often requiring compromises that satisfy nobody. Remember the moaning in 2010 when Tories and Libs formed a coalition? Well you'll get that every time, perhaps x10.
I'm not saying we definitely shouldn't go this way here, let's just be clear on what it means before we take that leap. |
Geert Wilders does not get votes in the Netherlands because of proportional representation, he gets them through the usual playing on a, usually, unsubstantiated fear of being overwhelmed and disadvantaged by migrants into the country. First past the post has not stopped Farage doing the same here and, whilst he has only five seats in Parliament, he will probably make even more noise in the coming years than Wilders. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:10 - Jul 6 with 1205 views | NeedhamChris |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:34 - Jul 5 by Keno |
Ahem why is pr ‘suddenly’ an issue?
So of us have been saying it for years |
You should be happy at the increased numbers supporting the cause then.
With more interested, maybe one day we will get the chance to vote on PR | |
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