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That is Russian propaganda. They invaded because they want their empire back and believe that, for some historical reason, that is their entitlement. Putin has written papers on the subject.
"I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. Our spiritual, human and civilizational ties formed for centuries and have their origins in the same sources, they have been hardened by common trials, achievements and victories. Our kinship has been transmitted from generation to generation. It is in the hearts and the memory of people living in modern Russia and Ukraine, in the blood ties that unite millions of our families. Together we have always been and will be many times stronger and more successful. For we are one people."
I'm not sure I agree with the quote you have written being evidence of of Russia wanting its empire back.
You don't have to read anything other than Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago to know that the Soviet Union was an awful time to be a Russian too, especially if you were an "enemy of the state" like an intellectual, an artist, religious, Communist Party official, military leader or former WW2 soldier.
Putin's words (in your quote) fail to address the point that modern Ukraine, while a proud independent state, was/is actually divided into Russia friendly and Russia hating factions. The 2010 elections saw the Russia friendly side win out until the Russia-hating Victoria ""f**k Europe" Nuland whipped up a coup in the country which was a decade and 5billion dollars of "democracy" donations in the making.
Clearly Putin sees Russia friendly Ukrainians as sovereign partners. But those in the West of the country are as likely to be partners with Russia as most of the rest of the former Soviet Union, that is categorically no chance. I don't see Putin or Russia wanting to have those unfriendly states back in any Russian empire - it wasn't much of a success before, and it won't be again. You can't force someone to live under your rule happily if they hate you. There's a lot wrong with Putin, but he isn't stupid and the quote you have given me isn't proof at all that he plans to retake the whole of Ukraine or any other former Soviet state.
âIf you buy into our media's argument that Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Union, then it's an absolute failure. If on the other hand you believe that Russia wants a neutral Ukraine it can trade with, then there's a case for Russia being successfulâŚâŚ.â
âIf you (or anyone else) can actually provide me with evidence of "pootin and his minions actually bragging about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire", I'll start to think differently.â
âWell as I understand it, Russia invaded Ukraine precisely because the West wants to bring her into NATO. By that argument, Finland and Sweden are putting themselves in danger with their decision.
If Russia really did have an expansionist agenda, why didn't they invade Finland and Sweden before they joined NATO and before they gained Article 5 protection?â
This is apologism for the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. Youâre making the same arguments as Putin.
Nonsense. I would prefer a peaceful, independent, neutral and homogenous Ukraine not a divided one. I don't care if Putin agrees with me. And I will not apologise for being an "apologist" for peace.
* Did Ukraine pose an extenstial threat to Russia? * What happened to Ukraine's Nuclear threat? * What happened in Crimea? * Quite simply who invaded who?
While the recent news is welcomed, personally the continued appeasement of Russia for so long has led to where we are today.
I'd also share that it is not just Ukrainian's losing their lives in this war but many nationalties too.
Being honest, Putin has played the West and while we supported Ukraine we didn't go all in when needed. In terms of defending a sovereign territory from a bully.
* Did Ukraine pose an extenstial threat to Russia? No, I don't think so. However the run-off election between Tymoshenko and Yanukovych which the latter candidate won because of his Russia friendly cheap Russian gas deal clearly was against Victoria Nuland and the US State Department's plan for a West-aligned Ukraine. If you don't understand the implications of her "f**k the EU" comment, then you don't understand she or the US have no interest in the Ukrainians as a people at all.
* What happened to Ukraine's Nuclear threat? Dunno, but please tell me if it's important.
* What happened in Crimea? No one was killed and Russia stole the majority Russia friendly Crimea back
* Quite simply who invaded who? Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 for sure
I should point out (for the benefit of GB that Putin would not agree with most of my answers here. He doesn't agree with me all the time because he doesn't agree with my generally pro-West bias.
Finally, I don't think Putin has "played the West", in fact I think Europe (especially Germany) is poorer for Putin having turned her back on the West and is now looking East.
Nonsense. I would prefer a peaceful, independent, neutral and homogenous Ukraine not a divided one. I don't care if Putin agrees with me. And I will not apologise for being an "apologist" for peace.
you would 'prefer a peaceful, independent, neutral and homogeneous Ukraine'
Peaceful - Ukraine was until Russian brutally attacked and occupied it in 2014 and 2022
Independent - Russia's barbaric occupation and daily brutal attacks on civilians means Ukraine can be independent, but needs to belong to a defence and, or economic alliance with likeminded goals.
Neutral - Ukraine is not surrounded by free nations like Switzerland. With a hostile, barbaric dictatorship on its eastern border, like most free nations in Europe, Ukraine sees NATO and the EU as guarantees of peace and prosperity.
Homogenous - all nations contain minorities. Russia is hardly homogenous. Fascism is your desire?
* Did Ukraine pose an extenstial threat to Russia? No, I don't think so. However the run-off election between Tymoshenko and Yanukovych which the latter candidate won because of his Russia friendly cheap Russian gas deal clearly was against Victoria Nuland and the US State Department's plan for a West-aligned Ukraine. If you don't understand the implications of her "f**k the EU" comment, then you don't understand she or the US have no interest in the Ukrainians as a people at all.
* What happened to Ukraine's Nuclear threat? Dunno, but please tell me if it's important.
* What happened in Crimea? No one was killed and Russia stole the majority Russia friendly Crimea back
* Quite simply who invaded who? Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 for sure
I should point out (for the benefit of GB that Putin would not agree with most of my answers here. He doesn't agree with me all the time because he doesn't agree with my generally pro-West bias.
Finally, I don't think Putin has "played the West", in fact I think Europe (especially Germany) is poorer for Putin having turned her back on the West and is now looking East.
"Under the agreement the Russian Federation provided security assurances to Ukraine in the form of promising neither to attack nor to threaten to attack them."
This last one is relevant because you keep differentiating Russia-friendly from Russia-unfriendly. Crimea is pro-Russian because the non-Russian population was forcibly removed and replaced with Russians. This is a pretty standard method of incorporating conquered territories. You don't really need to be a student of history to understand this. It's what is happening in the occupied territories in Palestine right now.
"Under the agreement the Russian Federation provided security assurances to Ukraine in the form of promising neither to attack nor to threaten to attack them."
This last one is relevant because you keep differentiating Russia-friendly from Russia-unfriendly. Crimea is pro-Russian because the non-Russian population was forcibly removed and replaced with Russians. This is a pretty standard method of incorporating conquered territories. You don't really need to be a student of history to understand this. It's what is happening in the occupied territories in Palestine right now.
I totally get what you're saying but in those three wiki links you have given me (I haven't watched the video), there is enough history over the last 2500 years of the Crimean Tatars to put together an argument to say that Crimea should be a separate country governed by nominally Muslim Tatars. Even the nature of both Ukraine and Russia have changed almost beyond recognition in the last 70 years that it's almost impossible to argue that a Ukrainian (or Russian) today really is Ukrainian (or Russian) in the same way that they were just 2 generations previously.
People are people, we move voluntarily, we are forcibly moved, we change religions and we inter-marry. On top of this, borders sometimes move when people don't and people adopt different languages. Despite all of this we are still people with human and God-given rights. National boarders and flags are relatively meaningless in the grand scheme of things but they are framework with which we like to define and categorise every person. The concept of nationhood is very new relative to the time humanity has been around and all very silly when you think about it. The sanctity of life itself is far more important than imaginary lines dividing pieces of land into nations.
IT'S ALL RUBBISH AND AGAIN I APOLOGISE FOR NOT HATING OR LOVING ANY PERSON OR GROUP OF PEOPLE BASED ON ETHNICITY, COLOUR OR RELIGION OVER ANY OTHER.
If you hate war then you shouldn't be happy conceding territory to land-grabbing dictators that invade other countries because they have, this one demonstrably, always gone back for more.
What I hate more than war is a appeasers that hide behind false notions of peace. Peace isn't leaving children to be stolen from their parents and relocated to another country. Peace isn't leaving occupied people in the hands of a dictator that has already committed the massacre of civilians.
Crack on with your repulsive notions of peace.
Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top.
Nonsense. I would prefer a peaceful, independent, neutral and homogenous Ukraine not a divided one. I don't care if Putin agrees with me. And I will not apologise for being an "apologist" for peace.
Putin doesnât agree with you. Its you who is agreeing with Putin.
"Obviously you have not heard pootin and his minions actually brag about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire then it isnât our media making these claims itâs Russians themselves!"
If you (or anyone else) can actually provide me with evidence of "pootin and his minions actually bragging about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire", I'll start to think differently.
"If these claims by Russia were not taken seriously why do you think Finland and Sweden decided to join NATO?
Well as I understand it, Russia invaded Ukraine precisely because the West wants to bring her into NATO. By that argument, Finland and Sweden are putting themselves in danger with their decision.
If Russia really did have an expansionist agenda, why didn't they invade Finland and Sweden before they joined NATO and before they gained Article 5 protection?
""Obviously you have not heard pootin and his minions actually brag about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire then it isnât our media making these claims itâs Russians themselves!"
If you (or anyone else) can actually provide me with evidence of "pootin and his minions actually bragging about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire", I'll start to think differently."
"Peter the Great waged the great northern war for 21 years. It would seem that he was at war with Sweden, he took something from them. He did not take anything from them, he returned [what was Russiaâs]"
"Apparently, it is also our lot to return [what is Russiaâs] and strengthen [the country]. And if we proceed from the fact that these basic values form the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in solving the tasks that we face."
Two pretty clear statements in one interview where he firstly references Peter the Great's empire building and then goes on to make it clear that he feels that places should be returned to Russia which is recreating the Russian Empire [1].
It was only a very quick Google, I am sure you could find more such references if you have the time available to you.
"Well as I understand it, Russia invaded Ukraine precisely because the West wants to bring her into NATO. By that argument, Finland and Sweden are putting themselves in danger with their decision."
Ukraine were nowhere near joining NATO or the EU. This is a much-used narrative the Russian government likes to employ but in reality it's not true. I also wonder why it would matter? Russia were already treaty-bound to defend Ukraine as were the US so joining any defensive pact surely makes no difference.
"If Russia really did have an expansionist agenda, why didn't they invade Finland and Sweden before they joined NATO and before they gained Article 5 protection?"
I think your own argument here undermines your previous ones. The fact that they did specifically target Ukraine instead of those smaller non-NATO countries on their border is because Putin feels that Ukraine is really part of Russia and should be re-integrated.
I would also point out that overall Putin and the Russian government have had very little to say and don't really seem concerned about Sweden and Finland joining NATO. They made statements of course in the usual way but they really haven't pushed the issue very much.
If fear of NATO expansion was the root cause of the invasion of Ukraine why aren't they being so belligerent towards Finland and Sweden?
""Obviously you have not heard pootin and his minions actually brag about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire then it isnât our media making these claims itâs Russians themselves!"
If you (or anyone else) can actually provide me with evidence of "pootin and his minions actually bragging about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire", I'll start to think differently."
"Peter the Great waged the great northern war for 21 years. It would seem that he was at war with Sweden, he took something from them. He did not take anything from them, he returned [what was Russiaâs]"
"Apparently, it is also our lot to return [what is Russiaâs] and strengthen [the country]. And if we proceed from the fact that these basic values form the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in solving the tasks that we face."
Two pretty clear statements in one interview where he firstly references Peter the Great's empire building and then goes on to make it clear that he feels that places should be returned to Russia which is recreating the Russian Empire [1].
It was only a very quick Google, I am sure you could find more such references if you have the time available to you.
"Well as I understand it, Russia invaded Ukraine precisely because the West wants to bring her into NATO. By that argument, Finland and Sweden are putting themselves in danger with their decision."
Ukraine were nowhere near joining NATO or the EU. This is a much-used narrative the Russian government likes to employ but in reality it's not true. I also wonder why it would matter? Russia were already treaty-bound to defend Ukraine as were the US so joining any defensive pact surely makes no difference.
"If Russia really did have an expansionist agenda, why didn't they invade Finland and Sweden before they joined NATO and before they gained Article 5 protection?"
I think your own argument here undermines your previous ones. The fact that they did specifically target Ukraine instead of those smaller non-NATO countries on their border is because Putin feels that Ukraine is really part of Russia and should be re-integrated.
I would also point out that overall Putin and the Russian government have had very little to say and don't really seem concerned about Sweden and Finland joining NATO. They made statements of course in the usual way but they really haven't pushed the issue very much.
If fear of NATO expansion was the root cause of the invasion of Ukraine why aren't they being so belligerent towards Finland and Sweden?
Your "Two pretty clear statements in one interview" appear to come from a Guardian article compiled by a number of agencies by sandwiching together various sentences from longer comments made by Putin while visiting an exhibition dedicated to Peter the Great. In the video which accompanies the Guardian article, Putin talks about taking back Narva which is in modern day Estonia on the border with Russia which at the time, over 300 years ago was occupied by Sweden who held territories comprising of what is modern day Estonia, Latvia and part of Lithuania at that time.
Your quote needs the information included in the square brackets in order to make the sentences which the authors have spliced together intelligible and create a quote intended to illustrate Putin's imperial intentions.
You say it was "a very quick Google" and that you are sure there are many more examples out there but if that's the best you and the giant search engine can offer, it's a rather pathetic effort which somewhat proves my point
You're normally pretty thorough in the material you provide to support your views Stokie but that lazy and completely counterproductive.
Your "Two pretty clear statements in one interview" appear to come from a Guardian article compiled by a number of agencies by sandwiching together various sentences from longer comments made by Putin while visiting an exhibition dedicated to Peter the Great. In the video which accompanies the Guardian article, Putin talks about taking back Narva which is in modern day Estonia on the border with Russia which at the time, over 300 years ago was occupied by Sweden who held territories comprising of what is modern day Estonia, Latvia and part of Lithuania at that time.
Your quote needs the information included in the square brackets in order to make the sentences which the authors have spliced together intelligible and create a quote intended to illustrate Putin's imperial intentions.
You say it was "a very quick Google" and that you are sure there are many more examples out there but if that's the best you and the giant search engine can offer, it's a rather pathetic effort which somewhat proves my point
You're normally pretty thorough in the material you provide to support your views Stokie but that lazy and completely counterproductive.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2024 10:50]
You say a lot but dont actually assert that the quotes are innaccurate. Why the tapdance?
You say a lot but dont actually assert that the quotes are innaccurate. Why the tapdance?
I asked for evidence of pootin and his minions actually bragging about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire.
Let's face it, if so many people believe that it's Putin's (and his minions) intention, there must be a few clear quotes out there. Why the confusing bee dance?
EDIT: In fact, why don't you help out "I am sure you could find more such references if you have the time available to you" as one poster has already said.
I asked for evidence of pootin and his minions actually bragging about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire.
Let's face it, if so many people believe that it's Putin's (and his minions) intention, there must be a few clear quotes out there. Why the confusing bee dance?
EDIT: In fact, why don't you help out "I am sure you could find more such references if you have the time available to you" as one poster has already said.
I asked for evidence of pootin and his minions actually bragging about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire.
Let's face it, if so many people believe that it's Putin's (and his minions) intention, there must be a few clear quotes out there. Why the confusing bee dance?
EDIT: In fact, why don't you help out "I am sure you could find more such references if you have the time available to you" as one poster has already said.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2024 11:19]
There's nothing wrong with Stokie's quotes, so what's the point of anyone searching for more - you'll only wriggle around them as well.
The square brackets are just to make the sentences make sense, they're not adding anything of real substance that puts words in Putin's mouth.
There's nothing wrong with Stokie's quotes, so what's the point of anyone searching for more - you'll only wriggle around them as well.
The square brackets are just to make the sentences make sense, they're not adding anything of real substance that puts words in Putin's mouth.
Supporting Putin seems a strange hill to die on.
There's plenty wrong with Stokie's quote as I've illustrated.
I'm no fan of Putin's and I'm certainly not planning to die on any hill for anything other than peace and the death of innocent normal people. But go ahead, you cheer on the fact that an exhausted and vastly depleted Ukraine is being given weapons and license to attack Russia - it's not exactly de-escalatory, is it? God help us!
I asked for evidence of pootin and his minions actually bragging about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire.
Let's face it, if so many people believe that it's Putin's (and his minions) intention, there must be a few clear quotes out there. Why the confusing bee dance?
EDIT: In fact, why don't you help out "I am sure you could find more such references if you have the time available to you" as one poster has already said.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2024 11:19]
Evudence was provided. You appear to challenge it without actually saying whether you think the quotes are innaccurate.... i asked about that and you still dont. Which is telling.
There's plenty wrong with Stokie's quote as I've illustrated.
I'm no fan of Putin's and I'm certainly not planning to die on any hill for anything other than peace and the death of innocent normal people. But go ahead, you cheer on the fact that an exhausted and vastly depleted Ukraine is being given weapons and license to attack Russia - it's not exactly de-escalatory, is it? God help us!
All you've illustrated is you're able to dismiss legitimate quotes for spurious reasons because they don't fit your agenda.
Ukraine is being given weapons and license to defend itself. Russia is the attacker.
All you've illustrated is you're able to dismiss legitimate quotes for spurious reasons because they don't fit your agenda.
Ukraine is being given weapons and license to defend itself. Russia is the attacker.
What makes the sandwiching together of words from several sentences about an event which happened on the border of modern day Estonia and Russia 300 years ago between Russia and Sweden a legitimate quote?
I apologise that peace and the preservation of human life (irrespective of nationality) is my agenda.
What makes the sandwiching together of words from several sentences about an event which happened on the border of modern day Estonia and Russia 300 years ago between Russia and Sweden a legitimate quote?
I apologise that peace and the preservation of human life (irrespective of nationality) is my agenda.
Do you say the quotes are inaccurate?! Read the paper i referenced as well....
I asked for evidence of pootin and his minions actually bragging about wanting to reclaim the Russian empire.
Let's face it, if so many people believe that it's Putin's (and his minions) intention, there must be a few clear quotes out there. Why the confusing bee dance?
EDIT: In fact, why don't you help out "I am sure you could find more such references if you have the time available to you" as one poster has already said.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2024 11:19]
Posters have provided you with quotes, but for whatever reason youâve decided to stick your head in the sand?
Putinâs right- hand man Medveyev said the Baltics should not exist as states as well. But itâs not just Vlad and regimeâs words* - itâs all evident in their actions. Theyâve slowly chipped away at former Soviet states - taking chunks of Chechnya, Georgia, and then Crimea. The annexation of Crimea was a test to see how the West reacted, we failed dismally and emboldened him to move on the rest of Ukraine. Now heâs also meddling in elections in Georgia and Moldova - using language similar to that of his rhetoric in Luhansk and Donetsk pre-invasion (around discrimination of ethnic Russians). We can expect to see escalations there soon.
Itâs all very clear to see, but unfortunately there are many useful idiots prepared to parrot all Putinâs weak as p1ss justifications - largely the same ones used in the late 1930âs replacing the word âGermanâ with âRussianâ.
*Iâm not sure why you are putting so much stock into what a proven liar, dictator, human rights abuser says anyway. He is a proven liar, and said he was not going to invade Ukraine.
* Did Ukraine pose an extenstial threat to Russia? No, I don't think so. However the run-off election between Tymoshenko and Yanukovych which the latter candidate won because of his Russia friendly cheap Russian gas deal clearly was against Victoria Nuland and the US State Department's plan for a West-aligned Ukraine. If you don't understand the implications of her "f**k the EU" comment, then you don't understand she or the US have no interest in the Ukrainians as a people at all.
* What happened to Ukraine's Nuclear threat? Dunno, but please tell me if it's important.
* What happened in Crimea? No one was killed and Russia stole the majority Russia friendly Crimea back
* Quite simply who invaded who? Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 for sure
I should point out (for the benefit of GB that Putin would not agree with most of my answers here. He doesn't agree with me all the time because he doesn't agree with my generally pro-West bias.
Finally, I don't think Putin has "played the West", in fact I think Europe (especially Germany) is poorer for Putin having turned her back on the West and is now looking East.
* This is what happened to Ukraines nuclear threat.
But to get this straight, you do not not condone the dictator's brutal invasions of Ukraine, right?
I don't really condone any criminal action. What the Ukrainians were doing to the people of the Donbass from 2014 was criminal, Russia's invasion was criminal, the actions of Hamas on October 7th and Israel's response etc etc etc all criminal and not condoned by me. That said, I'm grown up enough to know that there are lots of differences between peoples on the planet and people do naughty things to each other. Like I said, I support the sanctity of life of normal people and don't care much for politicians of any stripe from any country. I certainly don't buy into hating the bad guy of the moment as explained to us by our government and national media but I realise that I would receive fewer accusations of "badman apologist" that normally get thrown around by chauvinistic/patriotic compliant minions you find on Internet forums.
Evudence was provided. You appear to challenge it without actually saying whether you think the quotes are innaccurate.... i asked about that and you still dont. Which is telling.
The quotes are inaccurate because you can't get some utterances and splice them together, put those bits between a set of inverted commas and call it a quote. Sorry. Even if he had said those words verbatim, I would question whether it was evidence of clear Russia policy or just an idiot mouthing off to a few people visiting a Peter the Great exhibition. There's quite a lot at stake here and people seem to be grasping at any justification to prolong enormous loss of love. There seems to be more hatred of Russian here than genuine love of innocent Ukrainian lives. I don't see much humanity on show here.
What makes the sandwiching together of words from several sentences about an event which happened on the border of modern day Estonia and Russia 300 years ago between Russia and Sweden a legitimate quote?
I apologise that peace and the preservation of human life (irrespective of nationality) is my agenda.
He referenced it in regards to today.
What has been added to or removed from those quotes that changes the meaning?
Peace doesn't mean just giving into bullies and being forced to live under their regime (which could lead to all sorts of consequences). Do you know anything about 1930's Europe?!
Let me know your address - I'll happily march in and help myself to your stuff and you're not allowed to fight me off because PEACE MAN!
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