| VAR errors according to the Premier League 09:31 - Feb 5 with 7078 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Data out today re VAR errors, according to the PL’s Key Match Incidents panel:
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/43320888/revealed-every-var-referee-e
Apparently we’ve not been subject to any clear VAR errors this season however a few incidents where it’s adjudged the referee decision was potentially incorrect, but VAR right not to intervene as not clear cut or outside of scope (2nd yellow cards):
1. Non-penalty award for the foul on Davis at Man City
2. Non-penalty award for the foul on Chaplin against Leicester (apparently the whole panel agreed VAR was right not to review, somehow)
3. Decision not to give Morsy a second yellow against Villa
4. Decision to give Phillips a second yellow against Leicester
Hmm…
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:36 - Feb 5 with 4798 views | berkstractorboy |
Staggering after reflection that VAR officials and anyone in PGMOL can defend the decision for the Chaplin penalty. For the life of me I cannot figure out how this can be seen as a simple coming together. All the ex pros are of the decision it was a clear error and a penalty so what goes on for VAR training!! |  | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:37 - Feb 5 with 4780 views | Basuco |
CC Leicester penalty decision was interesting, the panel agreed it should have been a penalty, but also agreed it was correct for VAR not to intervene??? That makes no sense from any angle you look at it. What is VAR there for if it isn't to correct referee errors? |  | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:39 - Feb 5 with 4756 views | tonybied |
Who is the "PL’s Key Match Incidents panel"? If they are not an independent panel then it's purpose is pointless, is it not? If the PL/PGMOL really want to improve their standards and the implementation of VAR then it should be an independent panel on which they should be relying on to judge these incidents. |  | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:40 - Feb 5 with 4729 views | Basuco |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:36 - Feb 5 by berkstractorboy |
Staggering after reflection that VAR officials and anyone in PGMOL can defend the decision for the Chaplin penalty. For the life of me I cannot figure out how this can be seen as a simple coming together. All the ex pros are of the decision it was a clear error and a penalty so what goes on for VAR training!! |
It goes under the heading "operation make sure the three newly promoted clubs get relegated every season" The Premier League do not want relegation from, or promotion to "their money making cartel". | | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:46 - Feb 5 with 4661 views | SaffronWaldenBlues |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:40 - Feb 5 by Basuco |
It goes under the heading "operation make sure the three newly promoted clubs get relegated every season" The Premier League do not want relegation from, or promotion to "their money making cartel". |
I agree, at all of our games you see our established opponents get all the small decisions, whereas we struggle to get the same decisions in games, and that's without the big ones listed above.
Having said that, Delap and Enciso both went down too easy during key moments on Saturday, and that was not a good look and it probably cost us points. |  |
| An East Anglian Town overtaken by Londoners |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:46 - Feb 5 with 4661 views | LankHenners |
I know talking about refs draws out the boring 'stop blaming refs when we're crap' crowd, and I don't really think there's a 'crisis in refereeing' as the likes of Arsenal fans would have you believe, but there's clearly too much of a reluctance for proper introspection within the PGMOL. That Ref Watch programme where the presenters act aghast at a poor refereeing decision then the ex-ref just ignores them and backs the ref anyway might as well be billed as a comedy show.
Also: "Chaplin has control of the ball, shifts it to the side and Fatawu clearly collides with the attacker and doesn't win the ball. The panel unanimously supported the no VAR intervention and agreed the decision should remain the referee's call."
How can you put those two sentences together and not think there's an issue with them ffs. |  |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:56 - Feb 5 with 4561 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:37 - Feb 5 by Basuco |
CC Leicester penalty decision was interesting, the panel agreed it should have been a penalty, but also agreed it was correct for VAR not to intervene??? That makes no sense from any angle you look at it. What is VAR there for if it isn't to correct referee errors? |
If I’m reading it right, the panel voted 3-2 that it was a referee error but all agreed it wasn’t clear cut enough for VAR to intervene
Staggered that anyone could think it wasn’t clear cut (and yes obviously I’m biased but I do usually find some of the whining about decisions OTT, eg. ibbleobble’s thread)
VAR remains an absolute waste of time | |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 10:29 - Feb 5 with 4286 views | Basuco |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:56 - Feb 5 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
If I’m reading it right, the panel voted 3-2 that it was a referee error but all agreed it wasn’t clear cut enough for VAR to intervene
Staggered that anyone could think it wasn’t clear cut (and yes obviously I’m biased but I do usually find some of the whining about decisions OTT, eg. ibbleobble’s thread)
VAR remains an absolute waste of time |
I disagree that VAR is a waste of time, the concept of replays being reviewed to achieve the correct decision is good and a welcome addition to cut out referee errors, but the PL are not using it like that.
For example, how did Michael Oliver send off Myles Lewis-Skelly, that was reviewed and agreed it was correct by two other referees on VAR, but was then overturned on appeal. What did the appeal referees see that the two referees on VAR duty did not? How can three referees make an obvious error on the day and not be corrected instantly? This is what should be discussed at every level, otherwise referees are open to the accusation they are giving Wolves a helping hand to avoid relegation, which is what it looks like from our perspective. | | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 10:33 - Feb 5 with 4235 views | ElderGrizzly |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:56 - Feb 5 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
If I’m reading it right, the panel voted 3-2 that it was a referee error but all agreed it wasn’t clear cut enough for VAR to intervene
Staggered that anyone could think it wasn’t clear cut (and yes obviously I’m biased but I do usually find some of the whining about decisions OTT, eg. ibbleobble’s thread)
VAR remains an absolute waste of time |
"Clear cut" appears to be causing a lot of confusion. Clear cut to someone is very different to another person.
It should simply be (for things like penalties, red cards etc), was the decision wrong? Yes or no. |  | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 10:43 - Feb 5 with 4120 views | HighgateBlue |
You can have opinions on all of those incidents, and it's perfectly reasonable for those opinions to differ from the conclusions of this panel. I certainly disagree with some of them.
But I think we do always have to bear in mind that as partisan fans we do not view these incidents objectively. Every set of fans thinks its team has been hard done by. This is a panel who are not pro-Ipswich or anti-Ipswich, and this is their view. It shows that regardless of how one changes VAR (or even scraps it), we're not always going to get the individual decision we want.
If a ref makes a marginal call in our favour, and VAR refers it, there will always be some who say "surely that's referees call, VAR is only supposed to be there for the obvious ones".
If a ref makes a marginal call against us, and VAR doesn't refer it, there will always be some who say "what's the point in having VAR", and "VAR has made refs more careless because they think VAR will sort it, and then they don't".
I think having a panel like this is a good thing. It means that controversial decisions do not get swept under the carpet, but remain in the public domain for scrutiny.
There was never a golden age of all decisions being made correctly, and there never will be. That should be the foundation of any discussion on this issue. Of course that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to find the best system, and the best system probably involves lots of scrutiny and peer review. |  | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 10:48 - Feb 5 with 4007 views | HighgateBlue |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 10:33 - Feb 5 by ElderGrizzly |
"Clear cut" appears to be causing a lot of confusion. Clear cut to someone is very different to another person.
It should simply be (for things like penalties, red cards etc), was the decision wrong? Yes or no. |
I agree. But that means that the rule is wrong, not this panel.
If the test for whether a VAR intervenes is "was that a clear and obvious error?" and the VAR thinks "I would have given it the other way, but I can't say it was a clear and obvious error", then the VAR is CORRECT not to refer it. Correct under the rules, I mean, and the VAR's job is to apply the rules.
So if the panel agrees with the VAR (by a margin of 3-2 or whatever margin) that they would have given a penalty, but that it was not clear and obvious, the decision they have to make is that VAR made the correct call according to the laws.
I think the rules are bad rules and need changing, but I cannot blame the VAR and I cannot blame this panel, because according to the laws as they stand, they have done a correct job.
If people are asking them to ignore the laws and make up their decision, then that is just daft. These are professional people whose job it is to apply the laws even if many people think those laws should be changed. | | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 11:21 - Feb 5 with 3802 views | Basuco |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 10:48 - Feb 5 by HighgateBlue |
I agree. But that means that the rule is wrong, not this panel.
If the test for whether a VAR intervenes is "was that a clear and obvious error?" and the VAR thinks "I would have given it the other way, but I can't say it was a clear and obvious error", then the VAR is CORRECT not to refer it. Correct under the rules, I mean, and the VAR's job is to apply the rules.
So if the panel agrees with the VAR (by a margin of 3-2 or whatever margin) that they would have given a penalty, but that it was not clear and obvious, the decision they have to make is that VAR made the correct call according to the laws.
I think the rules are bad rules and need changing, but I cannot blame the VAR and I cannot blame this panel, because according to the laws as they stand, they have done a correct job.
If people are asking them to ignore the laws and make up their decision, then that is just daft. These are professional people whose job it is to apply the laws even if many people think those laws should be changed. |
The rule(s) are designed so that they can be interpreted in a number of different ways so that every decision is correct in whatever way the panel choose. | | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 11:24 - Feb 5 with 3782 views | Basuco |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:46 - Feb 5 by LankHenners |
I know talking about refs draws out the boring 'stop blaming refs when we're crap' crowd, and I don't really think there's a 'crisis in refereeing' as the likes of Arsenal fans would have you believe, but there's clearly too much of a reluctance for proper introspection within the PGMOL. That Ref Watch programme where the presenters act aghast at a poor refereeing decision then the ex-ref just ignores them and backs the ref anyway might as well be billed as a comedy show.
Also: "Chaplin has control of the ball, shifts it to the side and Fatawu clearly collides with the attacker and doesn't win the ball. The panel unanimously supported the no VAR intervention and agreed the decision should remain the referee's call."
How can you put those two sentences together and not think there's an issue with them ffs. |
VAR saw that there was clearly an Ipswich Town badge on Connor Chaplin's shirt, so it was the correct decision to not award a penalty kick. | | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 11:32 - Feb 5 with 3720 views | Basuco |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:39 - Feb 5 by tonybied |
Who is the "PL’s Key Match Incidents panel"? If they are not an independent panel then it's purpose is pointless, is it not? If the PL/PGMOL really want to improve their standards and the implementation of VAR then it should be an independent panel on which they should be relying on to judge these incidents. |
The panel is made up of three former players or coaches, a representative of the Premier League and and a representative of the PGMOL. so if the vote was 3 - 2 for a referee error, my guess is that the players/coaches said referee error and the PL and PGMOL representatives said no referee error. I might be wrong of course. | | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 11:42 - Feb 5 with 3633 views | Garv |
We didn't get the Chaplin one, but we did the one where Delap dived against Chelsea.
Swings and roundabouts. |  |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 11:48 - Feb 5 with 3565 views | LankHenners |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 11:42 - Feb 5 by Garv |
We didn't get the Chaplin one, but we did the one where Delap dived against Chelsea.
Swings and roundabouts. |
It wasn't a dive for starters but this is just another example of trying to compare completely different incidents and treat them as if they're the same, which is a large part of why refereeing discourse is a shambles. | |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 12:08 - Feb 5 with 3435 views | hoppy |
Any mention of Christian Walton being clattered into, and no decision? |  |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 12:09 - Feb 5 with 3435 views | tonybied |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 11:32 - Feb 5 by Basuco |
The panel is made up of three former players or coaches, a representative of the Premier League and and a representative of the PGMOL. so if the vote was 3 - 2 for a referee error, my guess is that the players/coaches said referee error and the PL and PGMOL representatives said no referee error. I might be wrong of course. |
Thanks, so it's not independent then! Hmmm...surely a panel like this should be wholly independent? It's better than a panel made completely from PL/PGMOL bods, I guess, but still not independent. The PL/PGMOL panelists need only to persuade one other panelist to come around to their side of the argument! | | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 12:51 - Feb 5 with 3241 views | Illinoisblue |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:56 - Feb 5 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
If I’m reading it right, the panel voted 3-2 that it was a referee error but all agreed it wasn’t clear cut enough for VAR to intervene
Staggered that anyone could think it wasn’t clear cut (and yes obviously I’m biased but I do usually find some of the whining about decisions OTT, eg. ibbleobble’s thread)
VAR remains an absolute waste of time |
VAR was, is, and always will be a scandal. A stain on the game. |  |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 12:54 - Feb 5 with 3226 views | Garv |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 11:48 - Feb 5 by LankHenners |
It wasn't a dive for starters but this is just another example of trying to compare completely different incidents and treat them as if they're the same, which is a large part of why refereeing discourse is a shambles. |
Definitely not the same, you're right. I was just pointing out one incident that we were supposedly hard done by (I've never been convinced - Chaplin was looking for it) and one we were lucky with. Delap made every effort to go down, yes there might have been an ounce of contact but it's a dive. | |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 12:55 - Feb 5 with 3206 views | Herbivore |
I'd quite like an explanation of how the penalty against Everton constituted a clear and obvious error that warranted VAR intervention but Lewis-Skelly getting sent off for a bog standard trip didn't. That's before getting into the Chaplin and Davis non-awards, when both were about as stonewall a penalty as you're likely to see. |  |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 13:02 - Feb 5 with 3148 views | LankHenners |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 12:54 - Feb 5 by Garv |
Definitely not the same, you're right. I was just pointing out one incident that we were supposedly hard done by (I've never been convinced - Chaplin was looking for it) and one we were lucky with. Delap made every effort to go down, yes there might have been an ounce of contact but it's a dive. |
Started typing a proper response then realised you don't think the Chaplin incident was a pen so there's not much point is there! | |
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| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 13:04 - Feb 5 with 3131 views | Blueschev |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 09:56 - Feb 5 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
If I’m reading it right, the panel voted 3-2 that it was a referee error but all agreed it wasn’t clear cut enough for VAR to intervene
Staggered that anyone could think it wasn’t clear cut (and yes obviously I’m biased but I do usually find some of the whining about decisions OTT, eg. ibbleobble’s thread)
VAR remains an absolute waste of time |
Agreed. I saw a bit of the Spurs Brentford game, and the Brentford forward was clearly pulled back by his arm when going for the ball. VAR looked and didn't give it. If they're not giving a a blatant pull in the box why have it at all? Same as the 2 minute check on Liverpool's 4th against us, it was clearly onside, what the hell were they looking at for all that time? |  | | |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 13:06 - Feb 5 with 3118 views | Garv |
| VAR errors according to the Premier League on 13:02 - Feb 5 by LankHenners |
Started typing a proper response then realised you don't think the Chaplin incident was a pen so there's not much point is there! |
Fair enough, up to you. I'm obviously not the only one who holds that opinion, though. | |
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