| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:49 - Feb 15 with 1316 views | vapour_trail |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:37 - Feb 15 by Swansea_Blue |
It’s a shame you try to lecture others on the ECHR when you don’t understand the articles you’re accusing me of not supporting without any evidence.
Of course decency comes into it. It’s very clear. ‘Decency’ is a cross cutting theme, covered by the requirements for respect, not dishonouring the reputations of others and morality.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/human-rights/human-rights-act/article-10-fre
“Restrictions to the right to freedom of expression
Although you have freedom of expression, you also have a duty to behave responsibly and to respect other people’s rights.
Public authorities may restrict this right if they can show that their action is lawful, necessary and proportionate in order to:
protect national security, territorial integrity (the borders of the state) or public safety
prevent disorder or crime
protect health or morals
protect the rights and reputations of other people
prevent the disclosure of information received in confidence
maintain the authority and impartiality of judges” [Post edited 15 Feb 22:45]
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It’s a troll. Patronising and sanctimonious, designed to solicit a reaction. Simply a troll. |  |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:50 - Feb 15 with 1313 views | redrickstuhaart |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 21:45 - Feb 15 by lowhouseblue |
no he didn't. he said something you don't agree with. they are not the same things.
the way you are going you will have no defence when you say something someone else disagrees with and they want to silence you. |
No. He quite literally, factually, said something that was not true, which has serious potential to cause division and unrest. |  | | |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:51 - Feb 15 with 1296 views | positivity |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:49 - Feb 15 by vapour_trail |
It’s a troll. Patronising and sanctimonious, designed to solicit a reaction. Simply a troll. |
a fundamentalist one-issue troll at that, which is the most tedious... | |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:52 - Feb 15 with 1286 views | StokieBlue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 21:57 - Feb 15 by lowhouseblue |
"Unfortunately It’s a viewpoint you’ll see regularly spouted by the Telegraph/Spectator columnists."
i don't read the telegraph or spectator, but i have read articles 9 and 10 of the echrc. i support human rights - why are you opposing fundamental human rights. are there other human rights you don't like?
my first post started by say free speech is not absolute. articles 9 and 10 also say free speech is not absolute. it is limited by law. it is not limited by "conventions of decency". the law is very clear that free speech can be offensive speech, it can be shocking speech, it can upset others - even you. these principles have been upheld by courts in europe and in the uk time and time again - do you oppose other judicial decisions relating to human rights? perhaps you want us to leave the echr or the strassbourg court?
you and other don't seem to get that free speech is symmetrical. you may subjectively find other people's speech offensive, dangerous, and factually incorrect - the chances are that subjectively they think exactly the same thing about your speech. free speech protects you both - you and the people that you think differently to. |
"you and other don't seem to get that free speech is symmetrical. you may subjectively find other people's speech offensive, dangerous, and factually incorrect - the chances are that subjectively they think exactly the same thing about your speech. free speech protects you both - you and the people that you think differently to."
This is absolute nonsense, a false equivalence fallacy of the worst kind and actually offensive.
SB |  | | |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:53 - Feb 15 with 1273 views | Swansea_Blue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:38 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Can you please define free speech.
SB |
He has done multiple times, so he clearly understands the definition, but then he twists it to try to diminish potential breaches of free speech as just as opinions.
It’s very much like his misinterpretation of immigration stats, twisting it as something not needed, when the reality is that the vast majority are wanted by businesses or because we have a world-leading global university education sector. Imagine trying to be internationally world-leading if you cut yourself off from the world lol.
He’s going back on the div list. |  |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:54 - Feb 15 with 1231 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:37 - Feb 15 by positivity |
it's impossible to counter blatant and dangerous lies if the blatant and dangerous liars control vast swathes of the media.
speaking up against the far-right makes you a target of musk and his twitter hordes, that's chilling to free speech and democracy |
of course its possible to counter it - you do it on here. loads of media outlets do it. social media is full of it.
twitter hoards exist on both sides of these debates their not unique to the right. i'm amazed that people think that silencing people who disagrees with them is anything other than oppressive. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:55 - Feb 15 with 1230 views | Swansea_Blue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:49 - Feb 15 by vapour_trail |
It’s a troll. Patronising and sanctimonious, designed to solicit a reaction. Simply a troll. |
Probably. He’s doing a good job batting for the dodgy sorts infecting our politics, that’s for sure. | |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:00 - Feb 15 with 1173 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:52 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
"you and other don't seem to get that free speech is symmetrical. you may subjectively find other people's speech offensive, dangerous, and factually incorrect - the chances are that subjectively they think exactly the same thing about your speech. free speech protects you both - you and the people that you think differently to."
This is absolute nonsense, a false equivalence fallacy of the worst kind and actually offensive.
SB |
in a democracy debates are symmetrical. people on both sides think their views are right and their arguments are the strongest. you may think that you have an exclusive right to say what is true and what isn't - but you don't. people who disagree with you - however much contempt you may have for them - have an equal right to express their disagreement. you think they're wrong, they think you're wrong. speech and debate is how weak arguments are exposed and evidence is assessed. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:00 - Feb 15 with 1177 views | positivity |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:54 - Feb 15 by lowhouseblue |
of course its possible to counter it - you do it on here. loads of media outlets do it. social media is full of it.
twitter hoards exist on both sides of these debates their not unique to the right. i'm amazed that people think that silencing people who disagrees with them is anything other than oppressive. |
that's utter nonsense, plenty of people on the left have been silenced on twitter, shouted down, threatened, accounts blocked, whilst musk's ultra-right mob can do as they please.
i can't believe that you're that naive to not notice any of this, so i can only assume you're a time-wasting troll. | |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:02 - Feb 15 with 1142 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:49 - Feb 15 by vapour_trail |
It’s a troll. Patronising and sanctimonious, designed to solicit a reaction. Simply a troll. |
and you bring nothing to the board other than unpleasantness. a remarkably hate filled poster. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:03 - Feb 15 with 1125 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:00 - Feb 15 by positivity |
that's utter nonsense, plenty of people on the left have been silenced on twitter, shouted down, threatened, accounts blocked, whilst musk's ultra-right mob can do as they please.
i can't believe that you're that naive to not notice any of this, so i can only assume you're a time-wasting troll. |
plenty of people with all sorts of views have been attacked on line in an attempt to silence them. it is not just people on the left who suffered at the end of internet gangs. 'cancel culture' hasn't been directed at those on the left for example. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:05 - Feb 15 with 1113 views | positivity |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:02 - Feb 15 by lowhouseblue |
and you bring nothing to the board other than unpleasantness. a remarkably hate filled poster. |
as a defender of the most despotic far-right anti-imigrationists and hate preachers who are determined to trample on people's fundamental human rights, that's extraordinarily rich coming from you. | |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:06 - Feb 15 with 1108 views | reusersfreekicks |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:00 - Feb 15 by lowhouseblue |
in a democracy debates are symmetrical. people on both sides think their views are right and their arguments are the strongest. you may think that you have an exclusive right to say what is true and what isn't - but you don't. people who disagree with you - however much contempt you may have for them - have an equal right to express their disagreement. you think they're wrong, they think you're wrong. speech and debate is how weak arguments are exposed and evidence is assessed. |
Just complete blinkered nonsense with no reference to the current realities.
No point arguing really.
Europablue mk2 |  | | |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:08 - Feb 15 with 1097 views | StokieBlue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:00 - Feb 15 by lowhouseblue |
in a democracy debates are symmetrical. people on both sides think their views are right and their arguments are the strongest. you may think that you have an exclusive right to say what is true and what isn't - but you don't. people who disagree with you - however much contempt you may have for them - have an equal right to express their disagreement. you think they're wrong, they think you're wrong. speech and debate is how weak arguments are exposed and evidence is assessed. |
Sigh.
Changing the words doesn't make it less of a false equivalence fallacy.
Debates are not symmetrical, they are given weight by evidence and facts. Just because someone says something asymmetrical to the argument that has weight and evidence that doesn't make it equivalent. To say weak arguments are exposed by evidence isn't true in the modern world where evidence often takes second place to narrative.
I am finding your argument offensive, you are essentially giving unpleasant viewpoints free reign because you've removed the need for evidence. That might have been fine 50 or 100 years ago when those views couldn't be widely broadcast but nowadays with social media and suchlike that isn't the case.
SB | | | |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:10 - Feb 15 with 1072 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 22:53 - Feb 15 by Swansea_Blue |
He has done multiple times, so he clearly understands the definition, but then he twists it to try to diminish potential breaches of free speech as just as opinions.
It’s very much like his misinterpretation of immigration stats, twisting it as something not needed, when the reality is that the vast majority are wanted by businesses or because we have a world-leading global university education sector. Imagine trying to be internationally world-leading if you cut yourself off from the world lol.
He’s going back on the div list. |
the immigration stats are published by the ons - if you want to dispute them then do so. those coming to work are a minority. those coming to attend university courses don't affect net migration because those arriving at the start of a course are cancelled out by those leaving at the end of a course.
the law defines the limits to free speech. the law does not silence people who disagree with you, or say things you don't agree with, or say things that you think are offensive, or upsetting or scandalous. this is absolutely basic to where the law stands on freedom of speech. the legal limits of free speech - consistent with the echr - are drawn very narrowly. free speech is a fundamental human right. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:12 - Feb 15 with 1050 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:05 - Feb 15 by positivity |
as a defender of the most despotic far-right anti-imigrationists and hate preachers who are determined to trample on people's fundamental human rights, that's extraordinarily rich coming from you. |
i haven't defended anyone. i have defended free speech. i have also explained where the law rightly stands. there are limits to free speech - but they do not limit political debate, even political views that you strongly disagree with. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:20 - Feb 15 with 1012 views | positivity |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:08 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Sigh.
Changing the words doesn't make it less of a false equivalence fallacy.
Debates are not symmetrical, they are given weight by evidence and facts. Just because someone says something asymmetrical to the argument that has weight and evidence that doesn't make it equivalent. To say weak arguments are exposed by evidence isn't true in the modern world where evidence often takes second place to narrative.
I am finding your argument offensive, you are essentially giving unpleasant viewpoints free reign because you've removed the need for evidence. That might have been fine 50 or 100 years ago when those views couldn't be widely broadcast but nowadays with social media and suchlike that isn't the case.
SB |
way before social media, it was said "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
now the lie is turbo-charged, fed directly into billions of minds by twitter, and any dissenting views are suppressed by bots and algorithms.
lowhouse just hasn't moved on from past centuries, which is the trap so many fundamentalists have fallen into. he's so obssessed with one idea, he can't see the massive danger and harm it's causing | |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:21 - Feb 15 with 994 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:08 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Sigh.
Changing the words doesn't make it less of a false equivalence fallacy.
Debates are not symmetrical, they are given weight by evidence and facts. Just because someone says something asymmetrical to the argument that has weight and evidence that doesn't make it equivalent. To say weak arguments are exposed by evidence isn't true in the modern world where evidence often takes second place to narrative.
I am finding your argument offensive, you are essentially giving unpleasant viewpoints free reign because you've removed the need for evidence. That might have been fine 50 or 100 years ago when those views couldn't be widely broadcast but nowadays with social media and suchlike that isn't the case.
SB |
i agree that the weight of evidence and facts determines which arguments convince people and which arguments come to be widely held as valid. it also determines which arguments are rejected and are no longer taken seriously. that process of assessing different ideas and view occurs through debate and speech. free speech is fundamental to a society determining which ideas are valid and which are nonsense. that is one of the oldest defences of free speech.
but no one - not even you - is the public arbiter of truth. however, strongly you believe something there is likely to be someone else who has a different view which is held equally strongly. there is symmetry between people with opposing views believing themselves to be right. debate and speech is the only way of resolving that. somewhere on another board there is probably someone signing themselves BS with views opposed to yours but with a equal conviction that he possesses the only truth and is absolutely and unquestionably right. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:25 - Feb 15 with 959 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:20 - Feb 15 by positivity |
way before social media, it was said "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
now the lie is turbo-charged, fed directly into billions of minds by twitter, and any dissenting views are suppressed by bots and algorithms.
lowhouse just hasn't moved on from past centuries, which is the trap so many fundamentalists have fallen into. he's so obssessed with one idea, he can't see the massive danger and harm it's causing |
i am standing up for human rights, the strassbourg court and the uk judiciary. free speech is a fundamental human right enshrined in the echr. free speech has been consistently upheld by the uk courts and the limits they have imposed have been limited. there are even fewer limits in the US.
i am genuinely shocked that in standing up for human rights, the echr and the strassbourg court I an receiving this level of abuse. it's normally loons like farage who seek to reject the echr. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:28 - Feb 15 with 931 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:06 - Feb 15 by reusersfreekicks |
Just complete blinkered nonsense with no reference to the current realities.
No point arguing really.
Europablue mk2 |
yes i probably am 'blinkered' in my defence of human rights. never before had i thought that that defending the ehrc would provoke so much ire from the left on here. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:30 - Feb 15 with 910 views | positivity |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:20 - Feb 15 by positivity |
way before social media, it was said "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
now the lie is turbo-charged, fed directly into billions of minds by twitter, and any dissenting views are suppressed by bots and algorithms.
lowhouse just hasn't moved on from past centuries, which is the trap so many fundamentalists have fallen into. he's so obssessed with one idea, he can't see the massive danger and harm it's causing |
he doesn't seem to care whose human rights are trampled on, who is endangered, who is suppressed, all is trumped by making sure that the most powerful far-right people with the biggest megaphones are allowed his precious "free speech". very odd, very dangerous | |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:31 - Feb 15 with 899 views | Churchman |
Can I refer everyone back to Dubs opening post? This is about some ignorant hillbilly voicing Trumps nonsense in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The reality is by spewing bile on Europe hillbilly oily rag Vance is doing the preparatory work for Trump and his best mate Putin to carve up Ukraine and in the private meeting that follows Europe. There’s no justification for it - trump wants treasure, Putin wants treasure land and his place in history. Zelenski will be in the room to be abused and told the deal. Nothing more.
It’s irrelevant to trump that Europes support has been twice as much as the US’. This is might by military kit.
European leaders need to be talking with each other right now. U.K., France, Germany, Poland, Finland, Baltics, maybe Italy. The threatened and most economically strong. Not to compete with besties Putin and Trumpy but to get serious about the future. To act. Ukraine is Czechoslovakia, Trump is Chamberlain, Putin Adolf, Zelenski the soon to be tried bloke with the tea tray.
If Trump tells Europe it should do this or spend that, he should be told to do one and that its military is needed in Greenland and Canada to defend them against a pariah state. That should raise his toupee an inch or two. As for hayseed Vance, they should be telling him they’ll talk to the organ grinder and lackey Musk, not the monkey with the cymbals and he can scuttle off back to his moonshine.
That’s the dynamic and the art of the deal.
Not sure I’d have made a good politician 😃 [Post edited 15 Feb 23:32]
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:34 - Feb 15 with 882 views | StokieBlue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:21 - Feb 15 by lowhouseblue |
i agree that the weight of evidence and facts determines which arguments convince people and which arguments come to be widely held as valid. it also determines which arguments are rejected and are no longer taken seriously. that process of assessing different ideas and view occurs through debate and speech. free speech is fundamental to a society determining which ideas are valid and which are nonsense. that is one of the oldest defences of free speech.
but no one - not even you - is the public arbiter of truth. however, strongly you believe something there is likely to be someone else who has a different view which is held equally strongly. there is symmetry between people with opposing views believing themselves to be right. debate and speech is the only way of resolving that. somewhere on another board there is probably someone signing themselves BS with views opposed to yours but with a equal conviction that he possesses the only truth and is absolutely and unquestionably right. |
Why is how strongly the viewpoint is held relevant? It's totally irrelevant. If a viewpoint is demonstrably incorrect then believing it strongly doesn't make it less incorrect.
"I strongly believe that Jupiter is made of cheese".
That statement is just as wrong if they strongly believe it or not.
A very strange post from you which totally ignores the modern day context that myself and others have pointed out and ends in quite a bizarre way that looks a tad like a personal attack.
SB [Post edited 15 Feb 23:35]
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:35 - Feb 15 with 870 views | lowhouseblue |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:30 - Feb 15 by positivity |
he doesn't seem to care whose human rights are trampled on, who is endangered, who is suppressed, all is trumped by making sure that the most powerful far-right people with the biggest megaphones are allowed his precious "free speech". very odd, very dangerous |
again, there are limits to free speech laid down in law. they cover situations in which there is a conflict of rights. the legal position is established by articles 9 and 10 of the echr. no one's human rights are 'trampled on' by hearing something they disagree with or hearing something that offends them. even if you hear something that you know to be incorrect your human rights haven't been 'trampled on'.
the fact that the left on here support neither free speech or fundamental human rights is genuinely eye-opening. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:35 - Feb 15 with 863 views | redrickstuhaart |
| JD Vance being somewhat rude to his hosts on 23:28 - Feb 15 by lowhouseblue |
yes i probably am 'blinkered' in my defence of human rights. never before had i thought that that defending the ehrc would provoke so much ire from the left on here. |
Defending human rights involves standing up for the rights of minorities rather than for the people wanting to restrict them. | | | |
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