| How would you rate Town managers? 09:36 - Feb 19 with 6545 views | SaffronWaldenBlues |
Reading the debate on McKenna vs Burley as number three, how does everyone rate most of our managers historically?
I would go with this:
1. Sir Alf Ramsay
2. Sir Bobby Robson
3. George Burley
4. John Lyall
5. Bill McGarry
6. Kieran McKenna
7. Joe Royle
8. Scott Duncan
9. Mick O’Brien
10. Mick McCarthy
11. Jim Magilton
12. Bobby Furguson
13. John Duncan
14. Jackie Milburn
15. Roy Keane
16. Paul Jewell
17. Paul Lambert
18. Paul Cook
19. Paul Hurst
Marcus Evans had some record for appointing good managers....
[Post edited 19 Feb 9:38]
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| An East Anglian Town overtaken by Londoners |
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:12 - Feb 19 with 1484 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
KMC has to be 4th and of he keeps us up this year absolutely 3rd. Given what he did last year with a squad assembled in L1 there is a strong argument he could be 3rd now given what he has achieved from a lower starting point in a shorter amount of time.
Big Jim vs Big Mick is an interesting one. Jim probably had more backing finnancialy and inherited a good squad from Joe Royle, we played better football under him and i really feel he deserved 1 more season when he was sacked. Mick on the other hand played mostly turgid football but kept us competitive on a shoe string. I think it's coi flip.
Cook, didn't get long, cleared a lot of dead wood, defoe above Keane, Lamberk etc.
Dark Lord will always be the worst for me. Binning of a good right back and brining in Dara O'Dea on loan was criminal, he was backed pretty well and wasted most of it. Hurst who'd I have 2nd worse, whilst well out of his depth was trying to shock the club out of a malaise that had clouded it for years. [Post edited 19 Feb 12:19]
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:30 - Feb 19 with 1448 views | BlueBadger |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 11:06 - Feb 19 by Reuser_is_God |
Keane & Lambert battling it out for bottom spot for me. |
Easily Keane. Other managers have played bad football, been more interested in their own PR than they have been coaching, tactics or motivation, taken us backwards whilst being given generous budgets and been in post for far longer than they had any right to thanks to be being inexplicably popular with an easily conned owner and or set of fans but only Keane has achieved all of these.
Although Lambert runs him him very close. [Post edited 19 Feb 23:35]
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:38 - Feb 19 with 1426 views | algy |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 09:42 - Feb 19 by Pique |
Sorry, but John Lyall above Kieran McKenna? In fact, two places above him?! Not in a million years. After a wonderful promotion campaign the bloke effectively abandoned us to McGiven-ball and richly deserved the sack when it finally came (too late). |
Lyall actually won the division, McKenna only came second in two divisions. |  |
| Veni Vidi Participatur. Now we can get back to competing. |
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:48 - Feb 19 with 1406 views | OsmansCleanSheet |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:38 - Feb 19 by algy |
Lyall actually won the division, McKenna only came second in two divisions. |
Christ not this b**locks again! Look at the number of points we achieved in both seasons and the fact that we went straight through the Championship when mid-table would’ve been a decent position! |  | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:51 - Feb 19 with 1401 views | Pique |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 10:37 - Feb 19 by DarkBrandon |
I think you are harsh on Lyall, who basically semi-retired, but hung around to help a little.
That's not really abandoning us.
But yes. Turning a mid-table second division squad into champions was a significant feat, but McKenna's achievements top that by some way. |
Lol, you make it sound as though he was selflessly doing some pro bono work for us.
In his last two seasons (1993/94 and 1994/95) he was still our manager, nominally at least. In reality he was, as you correctly say, semi-retired, having handed over the reins to Mick McGiven, who, if he was on this list (which he probably should be) would be in a dead heat with Hurst at the bottom.
But you can't semi-retire as a football manager - you either leave or do the job. Unfortunately for us Lyall did neither, creating confusion and a mess it took Burley at least a year to unpick, by which point we'd been relegated.
Yes, Lyall created a good team in 1991 and we should always be grateful to him for that. Perhaps that's why I find the later stuff hard to forgive. He did abandon us a bit, I'm afraid. And no, he's not the fourth best Ipswich manager! [Post edited 19 Feb 13:02]
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:55 - Feb 19 with 1384 views | Pique |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:38 - Feb 19 by algy |
Lyall actually won the division, McKenna only came second in two divisions. |
If the Lyall team's points haul had been replicated in the 2023/24 Championship we'd have finished fifth.
McKenna had to win promotion in arguably the toughest second tier of all time, and he did it with a team that had been in the third division for four years.
There's really no comparison. | | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:06 - Feb 19 with 1356 views | Pique |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:30 - Feb 19 by BlueBadger |
Easily Keane. Other managers have played bad football, been more interested in their own PR than they have been coaching, tactics or motivation, taken us backwards whilst being given generous budgets and been in post for far longer than they had any right to thanks to be being inexplicably popular with an easily conned owner and or set of fans but only Keane has achieved all of these.
Although Lambert runs him him very close. [Post edited 19 Feb 23:35]
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Keane also inherited a relatively strong Championship squad, whereas Lambert, to be fair to him, had to work with the smoking ruins of what Hurst had left.
Not that Lambert wasn't completely dreadful, of course. | | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:19 - Feb 19 with 1297 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:38 - Feb 19 by algy |
Lyall actually won the division, McKenna only came second in two divisions. |
That comment shows no appreciation of what McKenna achieved in those two seasons, and relative to the challenge in those seasons. | | | |
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:24 - Feb 19 with 1276 views | Blue_In_Boston |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 09:42 - Feb 19 by Pique |
Sorry, but John Lyall above Kieran McKenna? In fact, two places above him?! Not in a million years. After a wonderful promotion campaign the bloke effectively abandoned us to McGiven-ball and richly deserved the sack when it finally came (too late). |
I go with Lyall above KMK. He turned us around with no money into League winners ahead of Jack Walker's Blackburn.
Much as I rate KMK he did leave us up in the air for a lot of the close season, for me that tarnishes him a little. | | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:25 - Feb 19 with 1276 views | algy |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:55 - Feb 19 by Pique |
If the Lyall team's points haul had been replicated in the 2023/24 Championship we'd have finished fifth.
McKenna had to win promotion in arguably the toughest second tier of all time, and he did it with a team that had been in the third division for four years.
There's really no comparison. |
Conveniently ignoring the massive funding advantage that McKenna needed to get out of the third tier. There really is no comparison to what John Lyall achieved with the funds he had, particularly against the relative massive funding of his main competitor. Can still remember us singing "we beat the chequebook 2-1!". And 2 of those third tier year's were before Gamechanger money and demolition man cleared out the dross to make it easier for mck. McK wouldn't have come here if there wasn't money. | |
| Veni Vidi Participatur. Now we can get back to competing. |
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:29 - Feb 19 with 1263 views | lowhouseblue |
a list without keane at the bottom is just wrong. it's not just the footballing failure during his tenure - he was the trigger for all that followed. he inherited us in better shape than those who followed him and he ripped the soul out of the club. what he did was the equivalent of vandalism. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:31 - Feb 19 with 1265 views | Blue_In_Boston |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:55 - Feb 19 by Pique |
If the Lyall team's points haul had been replicated in the 2023/24 Championship we'd have finished fifth.
McKenna had to win promotion in arguably the toughest second tier of all time, and he did it with a team that had been in the third division for four years.
There's really no comparison. |
Different eras. Just like Burley taking us to 5th, you can't expect KMK to do that.
Making comparisons over such a long time is subjective. | | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:34 - Feb 19 with 1248 views | Pique |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:31 - Feb 19 by Blue_In_Boston |
Different eras. Just like Burley taking us to 5th, you can't expect KMK to do that.
Making comparisons over such a long time is subjective. |
That was kind of my point - different eras, and McKenna's was surely harder. And in fairness I wasn't the one making the original comparison.
But you're probably right that it's not a massively useful argument to have overall. [Post edited 19 Feb 13:45]
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:39 - Feb 19 with 1218 views | Pique |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:24 - Feb 19 by Blue_In_Boston |
I go with Lyall above KMK. He turned us around with no money into League winners ahead of Jack Walker's Blackburn.
Much as I rate KMK he did leave us up in the air for a lot of the close season, for me that tarnishes him a little. |
Interesting that you mention McKenna being tarnished in the context of Brighton's interest. Any thoughts on whether Lyall's semi-detached management in his final season and a half tarnished him?
Not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested. A lot of Town fans seem inclined to let it go, but it certainly tarnished him for me. | | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 14:16 - Feb 19 with 1160 views | Blue_In_Boston |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:39 - Feb 19 by Pique |
Interesting that you mention McKenna being tarnished in the context of Brighton's interest. Any thoughts on whether Lyall's semi-detached management in his final season and a half tarnished him?
Not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested. A lot of Town fans seem inclined to let it go, but it certainly tarnished him for me. |
Lyall went 'upstairs', though admittedly it did leave us in the lurch.
KMK had a tough choice - his stock was high, I'm not saying he courted clubs but he didn't commit to us wholeheartedly either. Or not until a new massive contract came his way. Have those weeks of uncertainty hindered us? | | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 14:26 - Feb 19 with 1136 views | rickw |
How about then...
1. Sir Alf Ramsey
2. Sir Bobby Robson
3. Kieran McKenna
4. George Burley
5. John Lyall
6. Bill McGarry
7. Scott Duncan
8. Joe Royle
9. Mick McCarthy
10. Mick O’Brien
11. Jim Magilton
12. Bobby Ferguson
13. John Duncan
14. Jackie Milburn
15. Paul Jewell
16. Paul Cook
17. Paul Lambert
18. Paul Hurst
19. Roy Keane
20. Mick McGiven |  |
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 14:28 - Feb 19 with 1131 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
I dont think there is a right or wrong answer. These kind of lists can be very personal.
I was younger when GB was manager, and football was probably more magical / romantic to me then, so I would always put GB above KM.
....but I can also understand some people putting KM above GB. |  |
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 14:34 - Feb 19 with 1101 views | DarkBrandon |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 12:51 - Feb 19 by Pique |
Lol, you make it sound as though he was selflessly doing some pro bono work for us.
In his last two seasons (1993/94 and 1994/95) he was still our manager, nominally at least. In reality he was, as you correctly say, semi-retired, having handed over the reins to Mick McGiven, who, if he was on this list (which he probably should be) would be in a dead heat with Hurst at the bottom.
But you can't semi-retire as a football manager - you either leave or do the job. Unfortunately for us Lyall did neither, creating confusion and a mess it took Burley at least a year to unpick, by which point we'd been relegated.
Yes, Lyall created a good team in 1991 and we should always be grateful to him for that. Perhaps that's why I find the later stuff hard to forgive. He did abandon us a bit, I'm afraid. And no, he's not the fourth best Ipswich manager! [Post edited 19 Feb 13:02]
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He wasn't the manager. Nominally or otherwise. McGiven was. Lyall was "Director Of Football" or something.
Edit: Although the list-of-managers page on wikipedia says you are right, and I'm wrong. And the OP doesn't list McGiven as a manager. I was sure though. Hmm. [Post edited 19 Feb 14:37]
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 14:53 - Feb 19 with 1043 views | Blue_In_Boston |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 14:34 - Feb 19 by DarkBrandon |
He wasn't the manager. Nominally or otherwise. McGiven was. Lyall was "Director Of Football" or something.
Edit: Although the list-of-managers page on wikipedia says you are right, and I'm wrong. And the OP doesn't list McGiven as a manager. I was sure though. Hmm. [Post edited 19 Feb 14:37]
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I remember it how you do. Mick McGiven was manager in the Panini sticker album. John Lyall went upstairs, one of the first in that role of Director of Fottball. | | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 14:54 - Feb 19 with 1041 views | Pique |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 14:34 - Feb 19 by DarkBrandon |
He wasn't the manager. Nominally or otherwise. McGiven was. Lyall was "Director Of Football" or something.
Edit: Although the list-of-managers page on wikipedia says you are right, and I'm wrong. And the OP doesn't list McGiven as a manager. I was sure though. Hmm. [Post edited 19 Feb 14:37]
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What actually happened was this:
For the 1993/94 season, McGiven, who had previously been Lyall's assistant, was given the title of Head Coach. Lyall retained his title of Manager, but in reality became a sort of Director of Football, although what he was actually doing was never entirely clear. McGiven had control of team affairs and was in the dugout for matches. Lyall was sometimes there, sometimes not. It was very confusing and, perhaps predictably, was a disaster. We were very nearly relegated, and probably should have been.
For the 1994/95 season, Lyall officially reverted back to team Manager and McGiven back to his assistant. There was some hope that this meant we were going back to the way it was, but it didn't happen. Some poor recruitment didn't help, but Lyall's heart didn't seem to be in it anymore and he was still absent for some matches with McGiven taking the reins - pretty unforgivable really.
A word on McGiven: yes, he probably should be counted as a Town manager, because that's what he effectively was for a season. And bloody dreadful he was too! His typical favoured formation was 8-1-1, frequently playing six centre backs in a starting lineup. He'd be down there with Hurst, possibly underneath him, as at least Hurst attempted to play the game of football. | | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 14:58 - Feb 19 with 1025 views | Garv |
I always struggle to understand how people felt being a Town fan was more enjoyable whilst Roy Keane was manager than Paul Jewell - not even sure the analogy of deciding which foot is better to step in dog pop applies either.
We at least had entertaining periods under Jewell, he signed some good players one of which was our captain for 9 years and another we sold on for good money, he played attacking football and we had some memorable results under him.
The most memorable game under Keane was a 1-0 win at home to Derby - memorable because it was our first win in 15 attempts since the start of the season.
I'd even stick Keane under Paul Cook. |  |
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 15:04 - Feb 19 with 987 views | joshITFCporter |
I still find it crazy that we've only had 19 managers in our entire history
Watford have had 19 managers since 2014, Leeds have had 19 since 2006. Even the likes of AFC Wimbledon have had 10 since they were formed back in 2002 despite all the success |  |
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| How would you rate Town managers? on 15:07 - Feb 19 with 966 views | HighgateBlue |
I agree with much of that.
McCarthy overachieved in terms of league position versus position in the budget league table. Getting us to the playoffs was an impressive achievement.
I also agree on all of the Pauls. Lambert was often a kn0b, but in terms of his actual record as manager, well it was better than Cook's. He had a better win percentage despite playing some of his tenure in a higher division. Cook was a more pleasant chap, but I don't give that criterion a great deal of weight when we're dealing with unsuccessful managers.
Comparing eras is hard. I would still have Burley ahead of McKenna, not because he was objectively a better manager or coach, but because he got us to 5th in the league in an era when that was already pretty hard, and we had only just been promoted. McKenna has been a total revelation, but at present I'm not sure he's achieved enough to oust Burley. I would definitely have McKenna ahead of Lyall though. Winning a division is a rare thing for our club, so Lyall's achievement there is a great thing, but back to back promotions in this day and age, and competing in the Prem, even if it ends in relegation, is so so hard these days. Tough on Lyall, but there we are.
I would love Sir Bob to be top, just because the eyes of anyone old enough light up, and he very definitely put us on the map as a top team, year after year. But (a) I wasn't around for Sir Alf, and (b) he did win the actual league, which is a crowning achievement for a club of our size. Winning the world cup wasn't a bad achievement either, but we can't really give him extra points for that. |  | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 15:15 - Feb 19 with 940 views | Smoresy |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:25 - Feb 19 by algy |
Conveniently ignoring the massive funding advantage that McKenna needed to get out of the third tier. There really is no comparison to what John Lyall achieved with the funds he had, particularly against the relative massive funding of his main competitor. Can still remember us singing "we beat the chequebook 2-1!". And 2 of those third tier year's were before Gamechanger money and demolition man cleared out the dross to make it easier for mck. McK wouldn't have come here if there wasn't money. |
No doubt we were incredibly well funded in Div 3, but it would be more pertinent to learn how funding disadvantages differed in Div 2. Leeds, Southampton and Leicester all benefitted from massive funding relative to us last season, obviously. Did the equivalent situation exist then as well, before PL riches and parachute payments? Was it one incredibly well funded rival or multiple? John Lyall was before my time.
Lyall won the league with 24 wins, 12 draws and 10 losses, which wouldn't have come close to cutting it last season. Ultimately you can only control your own results, not the consistency or quality of your opposition, and McKenna's record would have seen us promoted in any season in history. | | | |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 16:21 - Feb 19 with 847 views | BlueBadger |
| How would you rate Town managers? on 13:06 - Feb 19 by Pique |
Keane also inherited a relatively strong Championship squad, whereas Lambert, to be fair to him, had to work with the smoking ruins of what Hurst had left.
Not that Lambert wasn't completely dreadful, of course. |
Lambert inherited a bad hand, that he somehow managed to play woefully. He managed to have us finish below Bolton who were an utter basket-case that season, FFS. | |
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