| Net Spending 10:43 - Apr 15 with 6690 views | darkhorse28 |
We’re actually 13th in the prem for net spending over the last 5 years.., that blew my mind.
We spent £132 million, obviously mostly over this season, and 7 established clubs spent less, Everton over 5 years spent £27 million net,, and have made a profit in most recent seasons.
How they’ve managed to compete is a modern day miracle.
We need to get much better value in our talent ID going forwards, we haven’t got maximum value for that money, relative to other clubs at this level.., Mitoma £3 million, Mbeuno £7 million, Huijsen £12 million, and scores of example where clubs have bought well, at lower prices than us, for much better quality.
I know we all believe, and buy into the dream, but if we’re to breath life into that shared dream, that we can be a top club and in Europe again, there’s a lot of things we need to do much better.
We can’t focus on EFL players and be successful at this level, it’s just not possible anymore.
https://www.football365.com/news/transfers-premier-league-five-year-net-spend-ma [Post edited 15 Apr 11:00]
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| Net Spending on 10:49 - Apr 19 with 547 views | Churchman |
| Net Spending on 10:42 - Apr 19 by darkhorse28 |
Those clubs had hundreds of millions more in vestment over that period, and still spent less than us.
It’s world class levels of commitment from our owners, but we haven’t used it well, we missed the opportunity.
Other clubs have global reach and networks, and you’re right, they can take time, so where’s the evidence we are focussed on that?
We’ve always looked abroad as a club for value, even in the EFL I won’t list them all but I’m sure you watched Fabian, Tarrico, Romeo Z, Bontcho, Pablo…, and I sure as hell hope you got to see Parelta and Paz. We have a proud history of developing talent at much better value, sourced abroad. Even in the EFL.
You make some great points, but based on some inaccuracies, we aren’t within PSR and the money we’ve spent, it would have cost LESS not more to get better quality from foreign talent ID, that’s the whole point,
This is conjecture but I think we’d have stayed up if O’Neil had stayed at Wolves.
It just looked like we had a little more belief, and Cunha apart, they don’t have more quality than our group, we do have some very talented players, but none of them have the belief to step up, and some don’t have the quality.
What did Wolves do when faced with relegation?
They reached for their global agent network, their world class contacts, and signed an elite and potentially world class manager, one that’s won trophies all across the world, and league titles in Europe.
They did that because they have periodised building those networks, and relationships, and they don’t see the EFL as a roadmap and pathway to get that level of quality, because it isn’t and hasn’t been for a while.
Look at agent spending. That’s a great indicator of where relationships and networks are, for talent with competition from top sides.
We had the money, we spent the money, as a measure, more than anyone.
We didn’t have the networks and connections, and we still don’t.
As you say. They take years or decades to build.
Or you can recruit senior executives, that already have those networks, within hours!!
We cajole have brought in executives, with those networks, last summer, maybe not the best in the business, but a million times better than what we have.
That would have been a better plan than spending eye watering amounts on EFL talent, good players, but not good value or elite.
We didn’t do that. We still haven’t. It’s a generational missed opportunity in my opinion.
Do you believe if we lose our best couple of assets, what’s left will be able to stay up if we came back up?
We will be relegated with fewer or similar poles to Luton, momentum is important in football, and the championship season was pure magic, but if you know as well as me, it’s a brutal league of very small margins.
We desperately need to learn the lessons, and I just don’t the see the humility, the hubris, the acknowledgment of what went wrong to suggest elite management, that will take huge strides forwards.
I don’t see that. I see a lot of ego, a lot of individuals making excuses for themselves and others, and a lot of us with a fantasy we’ve built up, that we can’t let go of in order to progress.
And that’s not KM to leave either, we need to add the global execution Ed to the mix, with world class connections, it’s the only way we can ever get back to where we belong. Established and proud to be truely elite. |
Good to see you’ve got over yesterday’s hammering. Doesn’t do to dwell on things.
OTBC |  | | |
| Net Spending on 10:56 - Apr 19 with 532 views | darkhorse28 |
| Net Spending on 12:06 - Apr 15 by thebooks |
I know others have pointed a few things out already, but this is a really disingenuous take.
- The cost of players has increase exponentially over 5 years
- We had a League One quality squad three seasons ago: we are starting from scratch more than all the other teams. Of course we’ve made virtually nothing in sales: our players have been average at best.
- Finding players like Mitoma isn’t a case of assigning your scout to “Asia” and waiting for a list of players to roll in; again, we’ve had zero international scouting at PR for decades, let alone in recent seasons. |
Agree totally. You can buy the contacts and networks though, those relationships. It’s how elite clubs do it…, the CEO or head of football role is like musical chairs.
Those relationships take a long time, but you can identify the weakness, and with our wealth and spending, we could easily have brought in those skills. Easily,
We paid our manager £5 million and fifth best in the league, and we spend second highest in players, that’s £155 million this year, right there.
So why didn’t we bring in some expensive but talented senior executives with the contacts?
We could have. It was a choice.
When it looked like Wolves would be relegated, and I think we would have finished above them,
They went and used their global networks to sign a world class manager, who’s won titles all across the world, including league titles in Portugal.
He wasn’t in the EFL.
That saved their league status, and made them a guaranteed £200 million.
They did that because they have global networks, and invested in that, we haven’t, we still haven’t. | | | |
| Net Spending on 10:59 - Apr 19 with 529 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| Net Spending on 10:42 - Apr 19 by darkhorse28 |
Those clubs had hundreds of millions more in vestment over that period, and still spent less than us.
It’s world class levels of commitment from our owners, but we haven’t used it well, we missed the opportunity.
Other clubs have global reach and networks, and you’re right, they can take time, so where’s the evidence we are focussed on that?
We’ve always looked abroad as a club for value, even in the EFL I won’t list them all but I’m sure you watched Fabian, Tarrico, Romeo Z, Bontcho, Pablo…, and I sure as hell hope you got to see Parelta and Paz. We have a proud history of developing talent at much better value, sourced abroad. Even in the EFL.
You make some great points, but based on some inaccuracies, we aren’t within PSR and the money we’ve spent, it would have cost LESS not more to get better quality from foreign talent ID, that’s the whole point,
This is conjecture but I think we’d have stayed up if O’Neil had stayed at Wolves.
It just looked like we had a little more belief, and Cunha apart, they don’t have more quality than our group, we do have some very talented players, but none of them have the belief to step up, and some don’t have the quality.
What did Wolves do when faced with relegation?
They reached for their global agent network, their world class contacts, and signed an elite and potentially world class manager, one that’s won trophies all across the world, and league titles in Europe.
They did that because they have periodised building those networks, and relationships, and they don’t see the EFL as a roadmap and pathway to get that level of quality, because it isn’t and hasn’t been for a while.
Look at agent spending. That’s a great indicator of where relationships and networks are, for talent with competition from top sides.
We had the money, we spent the money, as a measure, more than anyone.
We didn’t have the networks and connections, and we still don’t.
As you say. They take years or decades to build.
Or you can recruit senior executives, that already have those networks, within hours!!
We cajole have brought in executives, with those networks, last summer, maybe not the best in the business, but a million times better than what we have.
That would have been a better plan than spending eye watering amounts on EFL talent, good players, but not good value or elite.
We didn’t do that. We still haven’t. It’s a generational missed opportunity in my opinion.
Do you believe if we lose our best couple of assets, what’s left will be able to stay up if we came back up?
We will be relegated with fewer or similar poles to Luton, momentum is important in football, and the championship season was pure magic, but if you know as well as me, it’s a brutal league of very small margins.
We desperately need to learn the lessons, and I just don’t the see the humility, the hubris, the acknowledgment of what went wrong to suggest elite management, that will take huge strides forwards.
I don’t see that. I see a lot of ego, a lot of individuals making excuses for themselves and others, and a lot of us with a fantasy we’ve built up, that we can’t let go of in order to progress.
And that’s not KM to leave either, we need to add the global execution Ed to the mix, with world class connections, it’s the only way we can ever get back to where we belong. Established and proud to be truely elite. |
Still you spout falsehoods, and won't justify them when challenged.
"we aren’t within PSR"
You've written this before, and I challenged you to justify the statement. You haven't, because you can't. This completely removes any credibility in what you post.
I wonder what McKennas relegation release clause is by SuffolkPunchFC 14 Apr 21:59Please show your workings that show we will not be working within PSR? I and others have posted credible forecasts as to where we are likely to be next April. If you search the forum you’ll will find these.
As for the return / profit. The club have not bought in order to make a short term profit - they are long term investments. The investment is both in terms of their contribution to the team whilst they are here, and in some cases eventually the hope of a profit. Most have a high ceiling - but as they are youngsters, it will not be realised immediately.
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| Net Spending on 11:05 - Apr 19 with 510 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| Net Spending on 10:56 - Apr 19 by darkhorse28 |
Agree totally. You can buy the contacts and networks though, those relationships. It’s how elite clubs do it…, the CEO or head of football role is like musical chairs.
Those relationships take a long time, but you can identify the weakness, and with our wealth and spending, we could easily have brought in those skills. Easily,
We paid our manager £5 million and fifth best in the league, and we spend second highest in players, that’s £155 million this year, right there.
So why didn’t we bring in some expensive but talented senior executives with the contacts?
We could have. It was a choice.
When it looked like Wolves would be relegated, and I think we would have finished above them,
They went and used their global networks to sign a world class manager, who’s won titles all across the world, including league titles in Portugal.
He wasn’t in the EFL.
That saved their league status, and made them a guaranteed £200 million.
They did that because they have global networks, and invested in that, we haven’t, we still haven’t. |
"We paid our manager £5 million and fifth best in the league..."
Again, more repeated bollox. 13th of the 15 that there are figures for.
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| Net Spending on 14:03 - Apr 19 with 453 views | darkhorse28 |
| Net Spending on 14:16 - Apr 15 by SuffolkPunchFC |
Yes, and people tend to ignore wage costs when making 'observations' regarding our PSR risk.
Reputedly the lowest in the EPL (by some margin compared to most), and not significantly higher than the top paying Championship clubs. |
Will be fascinating when we publish the next accounts. In terms on the squad size, the fee’s paid, obviously it will be much bigger operating costs than ever before, but the longer you stay at this level, the bigger increases players expect.
You’re certainly right that when a player is established at this level, the wage expectations become eye watering.
Again though this is why we had such a unique opportunity.
Not maybe clubs have arrived at this level, with such a low cost base, and opportunity to scale quickly. It’s been such a generational opportunity.
Even if your right on operating costs, they will be well over revenue when we factor the spending, we were only 10% below PSR and we lose the league one season, so even if we’re relatively low on wages, we’ll be rubbing against PSR if we don’t move significant player inventory.
I can’t think of any EFL except maybe Leeds with a big wage legacy still from their prem and Burnley, but they’ll be replacing us.
The accounts will tell the story. They cut through the narratives. They always do. | | | |
| Net Spending on 14:08 - Apr 19 with 443 views | darkhorse28 |
| Net Spending on 10:49 - Apr 19 by Churchman |
Good to see you’ve got over yesterday’s hammering. Doesn’t do to dwell on things.
OTBC |
Good to see you’re enjoying the time off school.
You need to grow up, opinions other than yours are valid. If you can’t do discussion, agree to disagree, listening, and maybe challenging your own opinions, and others, don’t bother.
Waste of energy and oxygen.
Is it kind, is it necessary, is it true.., try anger management classes. | | | |
| Net Spending on 14:18 - Apr 19 with 433 views | darkhorse28 |
| Net Spending on 10:59 - Apr 19 by SuffolkPunchFC |
Still you spout falsehoods, and won't justify them when challenged.
"we aren’t within PSR"
You've written this before, and I challenged you to justify the statement. You haven't, because you can't. This completely removes any credibility in what you post.
I wonder what McKennas relegation release clause is by SuffolkPunchFC 14 Apr 21:59Please show your workings that show we will not be working within PSR? I and others have posted credible forecasts as to where we are likely to be next April. If you search the forum you’ll will find these.
As for the return / profit. The club have not bought in order to make a short term profit - they are long term investments. The investment is both in terms of their contribution to the team whilst they are here, and in some cases eventually the hope of a profit. Most have a high ceiling - but as they are youngsters, it will not be realised immediately.
|
You’re right, it’s conjecture. The same as you I guess assuming we are within PSR?
I haven’t seen the accounts. I do know the PSR rules, I do know what we’ve spent, I do know where we sit in our three year cycle.
I do have a lot of experience in analysing and publishing accounts professionally.
I know roughly what our increased match day revenue is.
The only metric I don’t have, the only measure and part of the puzzle is player wages. Operating costs. We can all have a pretty good estimate, bet we don’t have the exact number.
So it’s obviously an estimate.., with Delap and maybe Wolf and a couple of others it might be fine, it might also be a significant breach.
We spent an eye watering sum, and we paid our manager £5 million basic salary too, and we spent more than the TV revenue on signings, so it’s not an unreasonable assumption.., that we’re over PSR without some decent player sales.
There’s lots of good resources out there for club finance, that are more detailed to the penny and more experienced in this sector than me.., the Swiss rambler and Kieran McGuire are excellent resources.
Of what we 100% can measure, we have a problem. | | | |
| Net Spending on 14:26 - Apr 19 with 428 views | darkhorse28 |
| Net Spending on 09:09 - Apr 17 by Axeldalai_lama |
It's a balance, and there must be a cut off point. Clearly we need to and will, now we have the money and inclination and reward potential. But for many clubs, ourselves included over the last decade or two, it's a case of it possibly being an expensive extravagance, versus the certainty of spending that money on a player or two every season. Ideally you grow a scouting system and it pays back well, but start struggling on the field or financially and it's easy to see why it can be cut back. |
It’s the lazy narrative that we have to spend money over decades and organically grow a global network of relationships.
Of course, to be best in class, that absolutely takes investment and time.
But like developing players, you can also go and buy the skills, and the networks very quickly, if that’s the strategy.
We’ve never really had the resources to do it to the required EPL standard.
But this summer we did. We absolutely had the resources to go and recruit some best in class global executives, with the connections and networks, this level demands.
We spent £155 million on players and management contracts, and we could have attracted elite level executives, for a small fraction of that investment.
As a club we decided not to go down that route.., we signed the best EFL talent instead, and that proved costly on and off the pitch,
When wolves were against the ropes, they tapped their global networks and signed a multiple trophy winning manager who elite by any measure.
For all our recruitment, we simply don’t have those connections.
And Ashton could have brought in that talent, people with different skill sets and networks to himself.., we had the money; and we had the status.
My worry is, he doesn’t have the confidence, the esteem, to bring in people around him, better than he is at these crucial aspects.
He’s EFL and so is KM.., we have a huge blind spot, and I still don’t see any progress.
As we proven.., with even most of the EFL team of the year, you won’t have the quality to stay up, if you don’t have global reach.
This level is truly world class now, the very best, and off the pitch as well as on it, we are short.
This was great opportunity for long term strategic off the field signings, to build us up for generations. If Ashton can’t allow that growth, we need to think long and hard about where we want to be, and making the tough choices to get there. | | | |
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| Net Spending on 14:30 - Apr 19 with 424 views | Mullet |
| Net Spending on 14:26 - Apr 19 by darkhorse28 |
It’s the lazy narrative that we have to spend money over decades and organically grow a global network of relationships.
Of course, to be best in class, that absolutely takes investment and time.
But like developing players, you can also go and buy the skills, and the networks very quickly, if that’s the strategy.
We’ve never really had the resources to do it to the required EPL standard.
But this summer we did. We absolutely had the resources to go and recruit some best in class global executives, with the connections and networks, this level demands.
We spent £155 million on players and management contracts, and we could have attracted elite level executives, for a small fraction of that investment.
As a club we decided not to go down that route.., we signed the best EFL talent instead, and that proved costly on and off the pitch,
When wolves were against the ropes, they tapped their global networks and signed a multiple trophy winning manager who elite by any measure.
For all our recruitment, we simply don’t have those connections.
And Ashton could have brought in that talent, people with different skill sets and networks to himself.., we had the money; and we had the status.
My worry is, he doesn’t have the confidence, the esteem, to bring in people around him, better than he is at these crucial aspects.
He’s EFL and so is KM.., we have a huge blind spot, and I still don’t see any progress.
As we proven.., with even most of the EFL team of the year, you won’t have the quality to stay up, if you don’t have global reach.
This level is truly world class now, the very best, and off the pitch as well as on it, we are short.
This was great opportunity for long term strategic off the field signings, to build us up for generations. If Ashton can’t allow that growth, we need to think long and hard about where we want to be, and making the tough choices to get there. |
You seem to posting with a lot of false authority to try and back up your points. But at worst you seem to be trying to create a panic out of something that isn’t a catastrophe.
Had we not gone up we’d have a different set of problems. That’s the nature of football and being a club in transition, not many clubs are changing at the rate of pace we are.
I just don’t see anything you’ve posted that justifies the narrative frankly. |  |
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| Net Spending on 14:58 - Apr 19 with 406 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
Of course what you say is mostly true, but you seem to miss the fact that around two years ago it was a hopeless Forest Green Rovers beating a dead-cert for automatic Sheffield Wednesday, that played a huge part in getting us where we are today. In other words, the club had to go from assembling a squad to try and beat Oxford, to attempting to assemble to get something from a game against Liverpool, in the space of less than two years, having optimistically put plans in place to do so in five.
Top half of the Championship last season would have more than kept us on track with the planning and development. | | | |
| Net Spending on 15:20 - Apr 19 with 392 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| Net Spending on 14:18 - Apr 19 by darkhorse28 |
You’re right, it’s conjecture. The same as you I guess assuming we are within PSR?
I haven’t seen the accounts. I do know the PSR rules, I do know what we’ve spent, I do know where we sit in our three year cycle.
I do have a lot of experience in analysing and publishing accounts professionally.
I know roughly what our increased match day revenue is.
The only metric I don’t have, the only measure and part of the puzzle is player wages. Operating costs. We can all have a pretty good estimate, bet we don’t have the exact number.
So it’s obviously an estimate.., with Delap and maybe Wolf and a couple of others it might be fine, it might also be a significant breach.
We spent an eye watering sum, and we paid our manager £5 million basic salary too, and we spent more than the TV revenue on signings, so it’s not an unreasonable assumption.., that we’re over PSR without some decent player sales.
There’s lots of good resources out there for club finance, that are more detailed to the penny and more experienced in this sector than me.., the Swiss rambler and Kieran McGuire are excellent resources.
Of what we 100% can measure, we have a problem. |
"We spent an eye watering sum, and we paid our manager £5 million basic salary too, and we spent more than the TV revenue on signings, so it’s not an unreasonable assumption.., that we’re over PSR without some decent player sales."
You're exposing a fundamental misunderstanding of PSR in this statement, and how costs are accounted for. Players were purchased for ~130M, typically on 5 year contracts. For PSR this is amortised over the length of the contract. So 26M in the next PSR accounting period (it's probably closer to 30M, as not all contracts were 5 years e.g Jaden's was 4 1/2). That is way below TV income.
We have 4M headroom from the previous 3 years PSR cycle, which helps next years. The manger is reputedly on 3M/yr, not 5M (source posted previosuly).
Yes, we have to make (educated) assumptions to work out what the PSR cycle will look like next April, but there is a lot of information in the public domain that helps reach a good estimate. I and others have posted such estimates elsewhere, and the consensus is that we will be comfortable within PSR next year, with room to spend a few more 10s of Million to buy some more players. This assumes only selling Delap, so is a very realistic model.
Your fundamental misunderstanding of player signing costs and how they apply to PSR suggest that you haven't got a clue on what ours might look like in 12 months. At least others have posted reasoned calculations with plausible numbers, demonstrating an understanding of PSR.
Feel free to post your own breakdown, and we can then maybe have a sensible discussion about where your numbers are maybe flawed - but do correct that massive mistake on how to factor in player signing costs first. | | | |
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