| Net Spending 10:43 - Apr 15 with 6691 views | darkhorse28 |
We’re actually 13th in the prem for net spending over the last 5 years.., that blew my mind.
We spent £132 million, obviously mostly over this season, and 7 established clubs spent less, Everton over 5 years spent £27 million net,, and have made a profit in most recent seasons.
How they’ve managed to compete is a modern day miracle.
We need to get much better value in our talent ID going forwards, we haven’t got maximum value for that money, relative to other clubs at this level.., Mitoma £3 million, Mbeuno £7 million, Huijsen £12 million, and scores of example where clubs have bought well, at lower prices than us, for much better quality.
I know we all believe, and buy into the dream, but if we’re to breath life into that shared dream, that we can be a top club and in Europe again, there’s a lot of things we need to do much better.
We can’t focus on EFL players and be successful at this level, it’s just not possible anymore.
https://www.football365.com/news/transfers-premier-league-five-year-net-spend-ma [Post edited 15 Apr 11:00]
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| Net Spending on 14:45 - Apr 15 with 1711 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Net Spending on 14:16 - Apr 15 by SuffolkPunchFC |
Yes, and people tend to ignore wage costs when making 'observations' regarding our PSR risk.
Reputedly the lowest in the EPL (by some margin compared to most), and not significantly higher than the top paying Championship clubs. |
Very true about wages.
These clubs are no doubt spending more on basic wages for starters. Add to that, that these newly amazing players don't just sit there on starters salaries. Delap for example, if we'd stayed up and others if they had performed as well in keeping us up would all be wanting mega wages or to move on.
It's the way of modern football. Constantly moving and being replaced, clubs need a conveyer belt of players and the scouts home and abroad to go with. The idea you can have a team full of bargains that stay with you and stay bargains is deluded in itself. |  | | |
| Net Spending on 14:48 - Apr 15 with 1695 views | Mullet |
| Net Spending on 12:13 - Apr 15 by PhilTWTD |
I think the club definitely needs to set its sights more widely, there are only so many players in the UK who can play at Premier League level and by setting sights so narrowly we're severely limiting our ability to sign players who can do what we need them to do. We saw last summer we, to a greater degree, signed the best of the Championship and, as it stands, that hasn't proved good enough for this division.
Fair point re last summer's signings not being judged on this year alone, but I'd agree that not many would be likely to move on for more than we signed them for this summer. Not sure any of the players we already had, other than perhaps Axel, will get a Premier League move. Davis seems less likely than would have been the case a year ago had we not gone up. |
Trouble is, where are we going to suddenly get all these scouts and how effective were they going to be immediately?
There are plenty of fans who would have gone mental if we’d have bought a load of “unknowns” and went down anyway.
It’s this next season and beyond where we need to see that really don’t we? |  |
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| Net Spending on 15:18 - Apr 15 with 1641 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Net Spending on 12:13 - Apr 15 by PhilTWTD |
I think the club definitely needs to set its sights more widely, there are only so many players in the UK who can play at Premier League level and by setting sights so narrowly we're severely limiting our ability to sign players who can do what we need them to do. We saw last summer we, to a greater degree, signed the best of the Championship and, as it stands, that hasn't proved good enough for this division.
Fair point re last summer's signings not being judged on this year alone, but I'd agree that not many would be likely to move on for more than we signed them for this summer. Not sure any of the players we already had, other than perhaps Axel, will get a Premier League move. Davis seems less likely than would have been the case a year ago had we not gone up. |
Exactly, you really only have to look across PL squads to the true value is the top European leagues (and even further afield). While I think the original post is somewhat disingenuous, the net spend we had with talent that had only played in the second tier was still pretty damn high.
Muric will be a loss and we signed some players with a very similar profile, hopefully it all pays off next year but we certainly need to be looking at getting in more physicality from further afield if we get back. |  | | |
| Net Spending on 15:25 - Apr 15 with 1612 views | textbackup |
| Net Spending on 15:18 - Apr 15 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Exactly, you really only have to look across PL squads to the true value is the top European leagues (and even further afield). While I think the original post is somewhat disingenuous, the net spend we had with talent that had only played in the second tier was still pretty damn high.
Muric will be a loss and we signed some players with a very similar profile, hopefully it all pays off next year but we certainly need to be looking at getting in more physicality from further afield if we get back. |
I spoke to Simon Milton a few years back, discussing his ties to Africa, and if he could scout/advise on players we could get from over there.
He said it was really hard as the players can’t just go from Africa to Uk, or something.
He did say being in the PL would help/speed up the process tho |  |
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| Net Spending on 15:25 - Apr 15 with 1632 views | Smoresy |
| Net Spending on 14:03 - Apr 15 by Herbivore |
Brentford also had a very hefty wage bill by Championship standards when they were building towards promotion. Harder to do that now with more stringent PSR rules at play. |
Wages are a key detail and the key unknown detail to our current situation - whether we have the spending power to go again significantly without sales.
Brentford's wage bill in the Mbuemo season was £25m as it happens, which was smaller than Bristol's, Wednesday's, Brum's.. over half of Champ clubs that year I would guess. It increased to £41m in their promotion season 20/21, but wrapped up in that figure was £11m in bonuses (much like our wage bill of £45m last year). They also had the smallest wage bill in the PL in 22/23 and have kept within PSR rules throughout their journey (including if current rules were retroactively applied*).
*I don't know of the material changes in England since 19/20, candidly. I know of the Uefa changes since that time for European eligibility. [Post edited 15 Apr 20:40]
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| Net Spending on 15:51 - Apr 15 with 1591 views | PhilTWTD |
| Net Spending on 14:48 - Apr 15 by Mullet |
Trouble is, where are we going to suddenly get all these scouts and how effective were they going to be immediately?
There are plenty of fans who would have gone mental if we’d have bought a load of “unknowns” and went down anyway.
It’s this next season and beyond where we need to see that really don’t we? |
Not disputing that, you can't just go into the market without having some knowledge of it - see the summer of 2001 - and you can see why they won't have gone down that road last summer for that reason, but needs to be something the club grows into going forward, as you say. |  | | |
| Net Spending on 15:54 - Apr 15 with 1579 views | Mullet |
| Net Spending on 15:51 - Apr 15 by PhilTWTD |
Not disputing that, you can't just go into the market without having some knowledge of it - see the summer of 2001 - and you can see why they won't have gone down that road last summer for that reason, but needs to be something the club grows into going forward, as you say. |
I feel for the club because it’s catch 22. It’s also perhaps a bit of naivety on Kieran’s part that he doesn’t want to risk too much there.
When he was at United coaching all and sundry it wasn’t his call who was recruited I guess. Perhaps in trying to play moneyball / player trading with known quantities we’ve put our short term future in more jeopardy, to try and ensure the medium term is more fruitful? | |
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| Net Spending on 15:57 - Apr 15 with 1572 views | blueasfook |
| Net Spending on 15:51 - Apr 15 by PhilTWTD |
Not disputing that, you can't just go into the market without having some knowledge of it - see the summer of 2001 - and you can see why they won't have gone down that road last summer for that reason, but needs to be something the club grows into going forward, as you say. |
I remember watching a documentary about Ajax back when they were immensely successful in the 80s/90s. Their scouting network was huge and they had agents all over Europe keeping tabs on young upcoming players from all the major leagues in Europe. |  |
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| Net Spending on 16:01 - Apr 15 with 1556 views | PhilTWTD |
| Net Spending on 15:54 - Apr 15 by Mullet |
I feel for the club because it’s catch 22. It’s also perhaps a bit of naivety on Kieran’s part that he doesn’t want to risk too much there.
When he was at United coaching all and sundry it wasn’t his call who was recruited I guess. Perhaps in trying to play moneyball / player trading with known quantities we’ve put our short term future in more jeopardy, to try and ensure the medium term is more fruitful? |
Perhaps, if we'd gone down with a lot of overseas players who had been sold the dream of the Premier League, we'd perhaps not be in as good a position next season in the Championship. | | | |
| Net Spending on 16:06 - Apr 15 with 1517 views | PhilTWTD |
| Net Spending on 15:57 - Apr 15 by blueasfook |
I remember watching a documentary about Ajax back when they were immensely successful in the 80s/90s. Their scouting network was huge and they had agents all over Europe keeping tabs on young upcoming players from all the major leagues in Europe. |
Think what was pioneering back then is commonplace in the Premier League now but we're obviously well behind on that front. | | | |
| Net Spending on 16:07 - Apr 15 with 1519 views | blueasfook |
| Net Spending on 15:57 - Apr 15 by blueasfook |
I remember watching a documentary about Ajax back when they were immensely successful in the 80s/90s. Their scouting network was huge and they had agents all over Europe keeping tabs on young upcoming players from all the major leagues in Europe. |
They still do today - great short film here, worth a watch...
https://english.ajax.nl/articles/ajax-doc-scouting-for-the-future/ | |
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| Net Spending on 16:08 - Apr 15 with 1510 views | blueasfook |
| Net Spending on 16:06 - Apr 15 by PhilTWTD |
Think what was pioneering back then is commonplace in the Premier League now but we're obviously well behind on that front. |
Well yes, only the top clubs can afford that kind of scouting set up. | |
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| Net Spending on 16:11 - Apr 15 with 1499 views | hype313 |
| Net Spending on 12:13 - Apr 15 by PhilTWTD |
I think the club definitely needs to set its sights more widely, there are only so many players in the UK who can play at Premier League level and by setting sights so narrowly we're severely limiting our ability to sign players who can do what we need them to do. We saw last summer we, to a greater degree, signed the best of the Championship and, as it stands, that hasn't proved good enough for this division.
Fair point re last summer's signings not being judged on this year alone, but I'd agree that not many would be likely to move on for more than we signed them for this summer. Not sure any of the players we already had, other than perhaps Axel, will get a Premier League move. Davis seems less likely than would have been the case a year ago had we not gone up. |
Sad state of affairs that the percentage of Home Nations (United Kingdom citizenship) players has fallen from 80% in 1992-93 to 40% in 2022-23 in the PL.
Especially given the changes and progression into grass roots football in that time.
I'm all for getting the next Adrian Paz as the next man, but when you see stats like that you wonder why so much money, time and effort goes into Cat 1 academies.
You're basically looking for a diamond in the rough, once in a blue moon. |  |
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| Net Spending on 16:12 - Apr 15 with 1495 views | DJR |
As my late father-in-law said (he died shortly later), why the hell did Everton get a points deduction last season?
Maybe it's due to a lack of the financial scheming and shenanigans that the very large spenders get up to. [Post edited 15 Apr 16:13]
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| Net Spending on 16:18 - Apr 15 with 1466 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Net Spending on 11:08 - Apr 15 by darkhorse28 |
That’s true. The secret though is to book a profit, and build from there. That’s where staying up is so important, and how the Forest, Brighton, Bournemouth, Fulham, Brentford models have worked.
They spend less than £10 million on individual players, and develop them in to £80 million players, Mktoma, Mbeuno, Huijsen, and Brightons list alone runs in to dozens.
They buy incredibly well, get good value, sell high and build. Obviously you need to stay up, which is increasingly hard.
We have Delap, and I’m not sure I can name another player, even if we stayed up, we could sell for a profit. Maybe Hutchinson, in time certainly.
Our best player Cajuste is a loan, and Muric, Greaves, Clarke, Ogbenne, Sammie, O’Shea, all have the same or probably lower book values even if we stayed up, nobody is rushing to buy them at this level.
Not to say they aren’t great at EFL level, but obviously that’s not where we’d get maximum re-sale value.
We do need to talent ID better than this season, if we get up again. Find some of those foreign gems that clubs no bigger than us, and this season at least, with no bigger resources than us.
We’ve had some great foreign talent over the decades, I think that’s the only way we’ll compete .., but just my opinion. |
Wow, Ogbenne has the same or lower value after spending a year out injured.
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| Net Spending on 16:55 - Apr 15 with 1399 views | DanTheMan |
| Net Spending on 16:08 - Apr 15 by blueasfook |
Well yes, only the top clubs can afford that kind of scouting set up. |
You'd be surprised how little they spend on it vs players wages. It boggles the mind how short-sighted clubs can be.
One decent find pays for the whole setup for years. |  |
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| Net Spending on 16:56 - Apr 15 with 1398 views | PhilTWTD |
| Net Spending on 16:08 - Apr 15 by blueasfook |
Well yes, only the top clubs can afford that kind of scouting set up. |
I suspect all the established Premier League clubs have set-ups of that type. In terms of data, Brighton and Brentford are as good as any, I believe. | | | |
| Net Spending on 18:08 - Apr 15 with 1324 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Net Spending on 16:55 - Apr 15 by DanTheMan |
You'd be surprised how little they spend on it vs players wages. It boggles the mind how short-sighted clubs can be.
One decent find pays for the whole setup for years. |
Of premier league clubs yes, as wages are lots and fees would be higher. But I think championship and definitely below isn't. Plus the lesser the club the harder to convince etc. so finding the players is half the battle if they won't come. | | | |
| Net Spending on 19:15 - Apr 15 with 1276 views | ghostofescobar |
| Net Spending on 12:13 - Apr 15 by PhilTWTD |
I think the club definitely needs to set its sights more widely, there are only so many players in the UK who can play at Premier League level and by setting sights so narrowly we're severely limiting our ability to sign players who can do what we need them to do. We saw last summer we, to a greater degree, signed the best of the Championship and, as it stands, that hasn't proved good enough for this division.
Fair point re last summer's signings not being judged on this year alone, but I'd agree that not many would be likely to move on for more than we signed them for this summer. Not sure any of the players we already had, other than perhaps Axel, will get a Premier League move. Davis seems less likely than would have been the case a year ago had we not gone up. |
Surely it’s not about setting our sights too narrowly, it’s that we simply don’t have the scouting and recruitment network to set them wider to find these cheaper gems from outside of the UK. I’m sure that we could have taken a plump on players outside of last summers narrow pool of talent, but without the proper recruitment network I guess it would have been more of a gamble for us, which the club may not have felt was the right strategy. One of the big observations for me this season has been the volume of decent, reasonably priced foreign talent that all the prem teams have. |  |
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| Net Spending on 19:41 - Apr 15 with 1249 views | NeedhamChris |
| Net Spending on 16:56 - Apr 15 by PhilTWTD |
I suspect all the established Premier League clubs have set-ups of that type. In terms of data, Brighton and Brentford are as good as any, I believe. |
Brighton's data didn't do us any harm until we had to suddenly cope without it. | |
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| Net Spending on 08:57 - Apr 16 with 1117 views | DanTheMan |
| Net Spending on 18:08 - Apr 15 by Axeldalai_lama |
Of premier league clubs yes, as wages are lots and fees would be higher. But I think championship and definitely below isn't. Plus the lesser the club the harder to convince etc. so finding the players is half the battle if they won't come. |
It depends on whether we're talking internationally or not, but in my limited experience, clubs will massively underspend on scouting despite the potential benefits paying for themselves multiple times over. | |
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| Net Spending on 09:32 - Apr 16 with 1055 views | jayessess |
| Net Spending on 16:11 - Apr 15 by hype313 |
Sad state of affairs that the percentage of Home Nations (United Kingdom citizenship) players has fallen from 80% in 1992-93 to 40% in 2022-23 in the PL.
Especially given the changes and progression into grass roots football in that time.
I'm all for getting the next Adrian Paz as the next man, but when you see stats like that you wonder why so much money, time and effort goes into Cat 1 academies.
You're basically looking for a diamond in the rough, once in a blue moon. |
For the top tier academies it's less "once in a blue moon" and more "total monopoly over all the good young players".
Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City particularly seem to produce a couple of very good PL players year in year out, a few go into their first team squads but most go towards fleecing the likes of us who have nowhere else to turn for players. |  |
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| Net Spending on 09:09 - Apr 17 with 885 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Net Spending on 08:57 - Apr 16 by DanTheMan |
It depends on whether we're talking internationally or not, but in my limited experience, clubs will massively underspend on scouting despite the potential benefits paying for themselves multiple times over. |
It's a balance, and there must be a cut off point. Clearly we need to and will, now we have the money and inclination and reward potential. But for many clubs, ourselves included over the last decade or two, it's a case of it possibly being an expensive extravagance, versus the certainty of spending that money on a player or two every season. Ideally you grow a scouting system and it pays back well, but start struggling on the field or financially and it's easy to see why it can be cut back. | | | |
| Net Spending on 10:42 - Apr 19 with 636 views | darkhorse28 |
| Net Spending on 11:05 - Apr 15 by only_one_sir_bobby |
I see you've now started a new thread to preach this rhetoric. So here goes again.
While there’s definitely truth in the need to improve our talent ID — especially internationally — I think there’s still a big chunk of context missing here.
We’re 13th in net spend over 5 years, yes. But we’ve only been in the Premier League for five minutes. That figure is a result of one big season of spend to catch up after years in League One and the Championship. It’s not a sign of us overspending for five years straight — it’s a reflection of how far behind we were and how quickly we’ve had to accelerate just to survive.
Comparing us to Everton misses some key facts. They’ve had nearly 20 years of top-flight investment, a legacy squad, and existing international scouting infrastructure. Even with that, they’re clinging on, facing points deductions and a financial mess. Their situation isn't one to envy — it's more of a cautionary tale than a miracle.
The examples of Mitoma, Mbeumo, Huijsen are great — but for every one of those, there are plenty of flops. Brighton also had a decade-long investment in global scouting before that model paid off. We’re not there yet. And while we should absolutely build toward that kind of recruitment, it doesn’t happen overnight.
Writing off EFL players is harsh too — plenty of current Premier League stars came through the lower leagues. Our squad was built on what was available, trusted, and within PSR limits. It may not all have landed, but it was a rational strategy for a club that just got promoted faster than expected.
This season was always going to be a foundation-laying year. Promotion came ahead of schedule. The squad is adjusting, the club is growing — and expecting us to have elite-level scouting, recruitment, results, and resale value instantly is unrealistic.
Let’s absolutely demand improvement. Let’s learn and evolve. But let’s also not lose sight of how far we’ve come — and how much patience a proper, sustainable build takes. |
Those clubs had hundreds of millions more in vestment over that period, and still spent less than us.
It’s world class levels of commitment from our owners, but we haven’t used it well, we missed the opportunity.
Other clubs have global reach and networks, and you’re right, they can take time, so where’s the evidence we are focussed on that?
We’ve always looked abroad as a club for value, even in the EFL I won’t list them all but I’m sure you watched Fabian, Tarrico, Romeo Z, Bontcho, Pablo…, and I sure as hell hope you got to see Parelta and Paz. We have a proud history of developing talent at much better value, sourced abroad. Even in the EFL.
You make some great points, but based on some inaccuracies, we aren’t within PSR and the money we’ve spent, it would have cost LESS not more to get better quality from foreign talent ID, that’s the whole point,
This is conjecture but I think we’d have stayed up if O’Neil had stayed at Wolves.
It just looked like we had a little more belief, and Cunha apart, they don’t have more quality than our group, we do have some very talented players, but none of them have the belief to step up, and some don’t have the quality.
What did Wolves do when faced with relegation?
They reached for their global agent network, their world class contacts, and signed an elite and potentially world class manager, one that’s won trophies all across the world, and league titles in Europe.
They did that because they have periodised building those networks, and relationships, and they don’t see the EFL as a roadmap and pathway to get that level of quality, because it isn’t and hasn’t been for a while.
Look at agent spending. That’s a great indicator of where relationships and networks are, for talent with competition from top sides.
We had the money, we spent the money, as a measure, more than anyone.
We didn’t have the networks and connections, and we still don’t.
As you say. They take years or decades to build.
Or you can recruit senior executives, that already have those networks, within hours!!
We cajole have brought in executives, with those networks, last summer, maybe not the best in the business, but a million times better than what we have.
That would have been a better plan than spending eye watering amounts on EFL talent, good players, but not good value or elite.
We didn’t do that. We still haven’t. It’s a generational missed opportunity in my opinion.
Do you believe if we lose our best couple of assets, what’s left will be able to stay up if we came back up?
We will be relegated with fewer or similar poles to Luton, momentum is important in football, and the championship season was pure magic, but if you know as well as me, it’s a brutal league of very small margins.
We desperately need to learn the lessons, and I just don’t the see the humility, the hubris, the acknowledgment of what went wrong to suggest elite management, that will take huge strides forwards.
I don’t see that. I see a lot of ego, a lot of individuals making excuses for themselves and others, and a lot of us with a fantasy we’ve built up, that we can’t let go of in order to progress.
And that’s not KM to leave either, we need to add the global execution Ed to the mix, with world class connections, it’s the only way we can ever get back to where we belong. Established and proud to be truely elite. | | | |
| Net Spending on 10:49 - Apr 19 with 624 views | darkhorse28 |
| Net Spending on 11:55 - Apr 15 by tractorboy1978 |
I think it's also important to say that not every player has to make a profit to be deemed a success or a decent signing. If someone like Szmodics scores 15 goals next season and we net £150m for promotion, it is £9m well spent. |
Absolutely, cracking player, and even if he’s not at this level, still brilliant value.
Him and Liam, maybe Hutchinson long term, and I haven’t competely given up on Greaves long term, could be potential value.
I won’t list the poor value signings, but I will say there are more of them, by a distance, and it’s that value metric that clubs always stand and fall on. Long term.
We bought well lower down, but we also had the biggest budget in league one, so value wasn’t important. In the prem, we spent massively, if we’d got good value across a £150 million investment, that’s a group that stays in this league. As other clubs have proven. You can build a group with the quality at those valuations, but not from the EFL.
No point | | | |
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