| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football 11:30 - May 1 with 6772 views | Swansea_Blue |
Which I suppose is effectively a ban from all football for any that have gone through any form of conversion therapy. No mention of a position on trans men though.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cz01z4rdx4no
Hmm, Football or General? [Post edited 1 May 11:30]
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 22:08 - May 1 with 959 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 21:15 - May 1 by SuperBlue1998 |
You're moving to a different area of discussion here - which I do disagree with you on, but I don't think it's what the original post related to. You said "you make choices in life". I think that's a really damaging framing in this area |
Did I say that? If so, fair enough, but I do t believe I did say that phrase. |  | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 22:10 - May 1 with 946 views | Herbivore |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 22:08 - May 1 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Did I say that? If so, fair enough, but I do t believe I did say that phrase. |
Think he realised it wasn't you who'd said that and apologised. It was a different poster who made that comment. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 22:13 - May 1 with 926 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 22:10 - May 1 by Herbivore |
Think he realised it wasn't you who'd said that and apologised. It was a different poster who made that comment. |
Fair enough. As you were. 😊 Nice to have a good natured discussion. | | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 07:32 - May 2 with 763 views | DJR |
Given the unlikelihood of trans women being accepted in, or wanting to play in, male football, and with no backup plan from the FA, there is a case for saying that the title to the OP should read "The FA have banned trans women from football."
As someone who believes in liberty, I have misgivings about this, particularly as it would prevent a female team willing to accept trans women playing another such team.
And of course, the FA's decision may well flow through to other sports, meaning that trans women are effectively banned from all sports. Not that it was an easy decision for them to take part in sport even before the FA decision. [Post edited 2 May 7:37]
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 08:43 - May 2 with 732 views | itfcjoe |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 20:04 - May 1 by DJR |
The World Service had an interview with a trans woman and the coach of her team which has three trans players. They will no longer be able to play for the team which struck me as very sad, especially with the support and friendship being a member of a team entails, something the trans woman thought especially important.
Of course, there is clearly a case for the exclusion of trans women in elite sport, but this is a grassroots team.
As it is, the FA appear to have rather rushed things given the following which sets out the terms of the rather insensitive email sent to trans people.
https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/fa-tells-trans-players-referees-coaches-get-t
"Banned trans footballers told to become referees or coaches - or get therapy
An email sent to the 20 registered players offered six free therapy sessions"
This is Stonewall's take with which I agree.
"The FA and Scottish FA’s decision to ban trans women from women’s football has been made too soon, before the implications of the Supreme Court’s ruling has been worked through by lawyers and politicians or become law. It is incredibly disappointing, especially as the FA has been a long term and vocal supporter of our Rainbow Laces campaign advocating for inclusion in sport for all ages and at all levels of the game.
"This is widely acknowledged to be an incredibly complicated ruling and its wide-ranging impact is still being worked through by the legal fraternity. All organisations should be waiting to see how and in what way statutory guidance is changed, before making any changes to their policies.
"Trans women young and old who love football will be deeply distressed that they are no longer able to take part in games, at all levels. Trans people remain protected under the law and need to be treated with dignity and respect - and this announcement lacks any detail on how those obligations will be honoured. Hasty decisions, without a full understanding of the practical implications and before any changes to guidance have gone through the necessary consultation and parliamentary process, isn’t the answer." [Post edited 1 May 20:10]
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Interesting that Stonewall now want to take a more nuanced view on things after spending the last few years with the most definite viewpoint on this and pushing that out and on to everyone, and railing against anyone that wouldn't agree to ensure that people had the fear in speaking out about it. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 08:46 - May 2 with 728 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 08:43 - May 2 by itfcjoe |
Interesting that Stonewall now want to take a more nuanced view on things after spending the last few years with the most definite viewpoint on this and pushing that out and on to everyone, and railing against anyone that wouldn't agree to ensure that people had the fear in speaking out about it. |
To be fair to them, the goalposts have moved, and I think it is difficult to disagree with what they say in their statement. | | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 08:50 - May 2 with 720 views | itfcjoe |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 08:46 - May 2 by DJR |
To be fair to them, the goalposts have moved, and I think it is difficult to disagree with what they say in their statement. |
Maybe there should be some introspection from them that having such strident views in one regard will lead to them coming back the other way.
I personally think the FA policy is correct, and it is the same for all sports - I think the views from Stonewall in the past have shown such a lack of understanding of what sport is, and why it is categorised that maybe the changes now [and the levels they go down to more specifically] are OTT but it's because the sporting bodies have had to either deal with, or live in fear, of so many legal challenges that there is now no room for a more nuanced, common sense, policy - because common sense went out the window a long time ago | |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 08:59 - May 2 with 702 views | NthQldITFC |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 08:46 - May 2 by DJR |
To be fair to them, the goalposts have moved, and I think it is difficult to disagree with what they say in their statement. |
But really the goalposts have only moved in a legal sense, not in a biological or physical sense, so are they responding in a principled way?
(I'm not entirely sure I'm qualified to comment on this, but I share the concerns which Joe and others have expressed for women's sport.) |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:28 - May 2 with 678 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 08:59 - May 2 by NthQldITFC |
But really the goalposts have only moved in a legal sense, not in a biological or physical sense, so are they responding in a principled way?
(I'm not entirely sure I'm qualified to comment on this, but I share the concerns which Joe and others have expressed for women's sport.) |
The legal sense is fundamental though because the Supreme Court decision goes against the intention of the Equality Act 2010 according to the official in the Cabinet Office responsible for the Act.
And organisations like the FA have up to now followed this interpretation of the Act.
So as Stonewall have suggested, rushing things in advance of the revised EHRC guidance is not in my view sensible, and accords with this passage from my union which I posted above.
"To pre-empt the guidance and attempt to reach agreement on a union policy or a position we put to employers could put us in a situation of potentially having to backtrack once the EHRC guidance is issued in a matter of two months’ time. This would place us in a position of unnecessary risk and undermine our ability to negotiate new or revised policies on behalf of our members."
[Post edited 2 May 9:31]
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:45 - May 2 with 658 views | NthQldITFC |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:28 - May 2 by DJR |
The legal sense is fundamental though because the Supreme Court decision goes against the intention of the Equality Act 2010 according to the official in the Cabinet Office responsible for the Act.
And organisations like the FA have up to now followed this interpretation of the Act.
So as Stonewall have suggested, rushing things in advance of the revised EHRC guidance is not in my view sensible, and accords with this passage from my union which I posted above.
"To pre-empt the guidance and attempt to reach agreement on a union policy or a position we put to employers could put us in a situation of potentially having to backtrack once the EHRC guidance is issued in a matter of two months’ time. This would place us in a position of unnecessary risk and undermine our ability to negotiate new or revised policies on behalf of our members."
[Post edited 2 May 9:31]
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I take your point and I recognise that I'm woefully uninformed on the subject.
Have Stonewall ever discussed the merits of additional 'open' competitions in principle, or have they always been insistent upon trans inclusion? | |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:51 - May 2 with 665 views | Trequartista |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 20:55 - May 1 by SuperBlue1998 |
As a gay person myself I really hate the use of the word "choice" here. It's not a choice to be gay, it's not a choice to be trans. Growing up I wish it had been a choice as I would have chosen otherwise - now I wouldn't say that, but it illustrates a point. The starting point for an empathetic discussion about trans people is dispelling this myth of "choice" |
I wasn't saying you choose to feel a certain way, apologies that wasn't clear. Sexuality is different as that is totally fluid, whereas you can't change your sex, you don't choose to feel how you feel, but you make choices on how much you want to live as a woman if you are male or vice versa. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:55 - May 2 with 649 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:45 - May 2 by NthQldITFC |
I take your point and I recognise that I'm woefully uninformed on the subject.
Have Stonewall ever discussed the merits of additional 'open' competitions in principle, or have they always been insistent upon trans inclusion? |
I wouldn't claim to be the font of all knowledge either.
I am not sure what Stonewall has done (and maybe it didn't think it needed to), but I think there is an issue more generally with a reluctance on the part of LGBT people to get involved in football, which was the reason for the Rainbow Laces campaign.
And this decision by the FA is only likely to make it even more unlikely that trans people will want to get involved.
As it is, the FA coming up with a Plan B might have been possible if the decision hadn't been rushed, but the email they sent yesterday to the handful of trans women players only suggested therapy or becoming a coach or referee. [Post edited 2 May 10:00]
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 10:34 - May 2 with 618 views | lowhouseblue |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 18:08 - May 1 by Swailsey |
Again, apologies, I quoted your wrong reply. I meant to highlight the bit about being trapped in a body. You were taking that far too literally, whilst clearly ignoring how that applies to trans individuals. [Post edited 1 May 19:09]
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the language of being 'trapped in' a body in this context is odd - absolutely no one exists separately from their body. our bodies with all their varied biological realities are us. we all have no choice but to accept fundamental aspects of the body we have. the notion that we have some version of an inner existence or even 'soul' which gives us a sense of physicality which is independent of, and even at odds with, our biological reality verges on pseudo religious mumbo jumbo. and it also suggests ideas of body dysmorphia which i think the people who talk of someone being 'trapped' usually shy away from.
of course a great many people passionately wish their body was different for all sorts of strong reasons - but that's much better language to use. none of that implies that you can't chose to present and adorn your body in any way that makes you comfortable or that you can't make it adopt any mannerisms of behaviours that feel right to you. gender you can vary. and the thread is about people whose bodies allow them to play sport - the great many people whose bodies don't give them that wonderful freedom have an equal or greater reason to wish their bodies were different from their own physical reality. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:10 - May 2 with 556 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 10:34 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
the language of being 'trapped in' a body in this context is odd - absolutely no one exists separately from their body. our bodies with all their varied biological realities are us. we all have no choice but to accept fundamental aspects of the body we have. the notion that we have some version of an inner existence or even 'soul' which gives us a sense of physicality which is independent of, and even at odds with, our biological reality verges on pseudo religious mumbo jumbo. and it also suggests ideas of body dysmorphia which i think the people who talk of someone being 'trapped' usually shy away from.
of course a great many people passionately wish their body was different for all sorts of strong reasons - but that's much better language to use. none of that implies that you can't chose to present and adorn your body in any way that makes you comfortable or that you can't make it adopt any mannerisms of behaviours that feel right to you. gender you can vary. and the thread is about people whose bodies allow them to play sport - the great many people whose bodies don't give them that wonderful freedom have an equal or greater reason to wish their bodies were different from their own physical reality. |
I am not an expert in this field, but isn't the phrase "trapped in their body" shorthand for gender dysphoria which is recognised as a condition and is a pre-requisite for a gender recognition certificate under the 2004 Act?
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms-causes/
"Gender dysphoria is a feeling of distress that can happen when a person's gender identity differs from the sex assigned at birth.
Some transgender and gender-diverse people have gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. Other transgender and gender-diverse people feel at ease with their bodies and gender identities, and they don't have gender dysphoria."
And the NHS website says.
"Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, but some people may develop mental health problems because of gender dysphoria." [Post edited 2 May 11:14]
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:48 - May 2 with 497 views | lowhouseblue |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:10 - May 2 by DJR |
I am not an expert in this field, but isn't the phrase "trapped in their body" shorthand for gender dysphoria which is recognised as a condition and is a pre-requisite for a gender recognition certificate under the 2004 Act?
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms-causes/
"Gender dysphoria is a feeling of distress that can happen when a person's gender identity differs from the sex assigned at birth.
Some transgender and gender-diverse people have gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. Other transgender and gender-diverse people feel at ease with their bodies and gender identities, and they don't have gender dysphoria."
And the NHS website says.
"Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, but some people may develop mental health problems because of gender dysphoria." [Post edited 2 May 11:14]
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but no one is 'trapped' in their body - without their body no one exists. it makes no sense to see the thing that makes you alive and from which you are inseparable as a trap. your body is you - what you do with it is a different question and people can of course vary their gender, but the biological reality of their body doesn't change. gender dysphoria is clearly very real for some people but it doesn't nullify an acceptance of biological realities. and sex isn't assigned at birth, it's observed. we really have to articulate basic scientific realities such as that. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:03 - May 2 with 454 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:48 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
but no one is 'trapped' in their body - without their body no one exists. it makes no sense to see the thing that makes you alive and from which you are inseparable as a trap. your body is you - what you do with it is a different question and people can of course vary their gender, but the biological reality of their body doesn't change. gender dysphoria is clearly very real for some people but it doesn't nullify an acceptance of biological realities. and sex isn't assigned at birth, it's observed. we really have to articulate basic scientific realities such as that. |
This from the Northern Ireland health service website.
"Adults with gender dysphoria can feel trapped inside a body that doesn't match their gender identity. They may also want to change or get rid of physical signs of their biological sex, such as facial hair or breasts." | | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:13 - May 2 with 432 views | lowhouseblue |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:03 - May 2 by DJR |
This from the Northern Ireland health service website.
"Adults with gender dysphoria can feel trapped inside a body that doesn't match their gender identity. They may also want to change or get rid of physical signs of their biological sex, such as facial hair or breasts." |
i'm sure the nhs will be reviewing it's language generally. as i've said, it seems a poor use of language to me. would we say someone with anorexia is trapped inside a body with a normal range bmi? or someone with body dysmorphia is trapped inside a body that to them looks wrong? 'trapped' denies the reality that the body we have is the only body we're ever going to have | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:18 - May 2 with 413 views | Herbivore |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:13 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
i'm sure the nhs will be reviewing it's language generally. as i've said, it seems a poor use of language to me. would we say someone with anorexia is trapped inside a body with a normal range bmi? or someone with body dysmorphia is trapped inside a body that to them looks wrong? 'trapped' denies the reality that the body we have is the only body we're ever going to have |
I'm sure what trans people really need right now is a middle aged, middle class, white man telling them that they could be more precise in their language use. You're doing great work. | |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:26 - May 2 with 385 views | lowhouseblue |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:18 - May 2 by Herbivore |
I'm sure what trans people really need right now is a middle aged, middle class, white man telling them that they could be more precise in their language use. You're doing great work. |
trans people will use whatever language they chose to describe their own experience. how language is used to frame public debate is a legitimate thing to discuss however, and i think language which implies that anyone has an existence which can be understood as separate from their physical body is a distortion. biological realities are exactly that for everyone. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:26 - May 2 with 387 views | Zx1988 |
And, again, absolutely no mention of their stance on trans men.
Almost as if this whole debacle is a poorly thought-through moral panic. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:39 - May 2 with 355 views | lowhouseblue |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:26 - May 2 by Zx1988 |
And, again, absolutely no mention of their stance on trans men.
Almost as if this whole debacle is a poorly thought-through moral panic. |
what's your concern with trans men and sport - that they won't be able to play in men's teams (they never get selected already) or taking testosterone will bar them from women's teams. i don't see a way around the testosterone issue given that that was for many years the east european preferred way to cheat in women's sport. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:46 - May 2 with 335 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:18 - May 2 by Herbivore |
I'm sure what trans people really need right now is a middle aged, middle class, white man telling them that they could be more precise in their language use. You're doing great work. |
I came across this on the internet from someone who set out just how much it had adversely affected them.
"How can someone who has never experienced gender dysphoria understand the feelings of someone who feels trapped in the wrong body?" | | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:53 - May 2 with 300 views | J2BLUE |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:46 - May 2 by DJR |
I came across this on the internet from someone who set out just how much it had adversely affected them.
"How can someone who has never experienced gender dysphoria understand the feelings of someone who feels trapped in the wrong body?" |
Who is claiming to understand? It comes down to whether certain things need to be segregated by gender or sex. No one is claiming to understand. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 13:16 - May 2 with 261 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:53 - May 2 by J2BLUE |
Who is claiming to understand? It comes down to whether certain things need to be segregated by gender or sex. No one is claiming to understand. |
Sorry, if not clear but my post had nothing to with the Supreme Court judgment or FA ban but was instead a continuation of the debate on this thread about the expression "trapped in a body" [Post edited 2 May 13:18]
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