| Starmer's principled positioning .... 09:15 - May 12 with 4579 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
How many highly principled, yet varying, positions on the same subjects is it OK to have?
Asking for a friend. |  |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... (n/t) on 13:28 - May 12 with 837 views | Meadowlark |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 10:55 - May 12 by MattinLondon |
Are you saying that a lot of weathly people have left? Do you have any evidence for this as I’ll be interested in such stats. Thanks. |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:30 - May 12 with 827 views | Meadowlark |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 10:55 - May 12 by MattinLondon |
Are you saying that a lot of weathly people have left? Do you have any evidence for this as I’ll be interested in such stats. Thanks. |
Hope it's true. Pity they didn't take more of their pals with them! | | | |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:34 - May 12 with 819 views | Trequartista |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 12:02 - May 12 by nrb1985 |
Sorry this is going so sound awful but that is an absolutely shocking level of ignorance. However I don’t blame you, left wing media and politicians have demonized these people for years now and willfully pedal non truths. Gary Stephenson and the like are as bad as Farage imo for this.
Domicile has had nothing to do with tax. Generally you have the domicile of your father - usually based on their nationality. HMRC has strict tests on this if you’re unsure. So basically, it’s foreigners living in the UK (my clients include footballers, people in the music industry as well as entrepreneurs and successful professionals)
What does the UK lose? Nothing except £8bn a year in tax revenues…sure nobody will notice though. These people pay a huge amount of tax in a given year - more than you or me put together will ever pay in a lifetime. [Post edited 12 May 15:00]
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I thought you previously said Gary Stephenson is spot on? |  |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:39 - May 12 with 793 views | J2BLUE |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:06 - May 12 by BanksterDebtSlave |
That's the nubs of it isn't it. Let's face it, no policies will be introduced to encourage proper training and pay to make caring (and other such professions) a valued and attractive profession for our unemployed.
This is just another example of Starmer going where the wind blows and it will continue to blow him further to the right because he has no foundations. |
Your foundations would hand Reform the next general election. Starmer might well be reacting to public demand rather than basing his actions on principles but if he didn't then Reform would get in.
I know you think compromise is some massive betrayal but it's better to get some things you want than refuse to compromise and get nothing.
The country overwhelmingly rejected Corbyn and although you may not accept that and think the electorate just aren't smart enough to see things the same way you do perhaps you need to accept that the majority in the country are probably centre right with little interest in a radical left wing government? |  |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:48 - May 12 with 776 views | lowhouseblue |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:39 - May 12 by J2BLUE |
Your foundations would hand Reform the next general election. Starmer might well be reacting to public demand rather than basing his actions on principles but if he didn't then Reform would get in.
I know you think compromise is some massive betrayal but it's better to get some things you want than refuse to compromise and get nothing.
The country overwhelmingly rejected Corbyn and although you may not accept that and think the electorate just aren't smart enough to see things the same way you do perhaps you need to accept that the majority in the country are probably centre right with little interest in a radical left wing government? |
plus, it's something the majority of the public have been very clear about for years and they've been condescendingly ignored. which isn't healthy in a democracy. if starmer can deliver this and also generate growth then we may avoid some version of a reform government in 2029. [Post edited 12 May 13:48]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:55 - May 12 with 759 views | nrb1985 |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:34 - May 12 by Trequartista |
I thought you previously said Gary Stephenson is spot on? |
I knew him for a while at Citi (or knew of him at least - he worked on a different floor, same building).
When he first surfaced I thought he was on the right side of many arguments and his politics is probably quite closely aligned to mine. Namely, I think he believes in a progressive left agenda - however for now, given the limitations that's not really possible.
More recently, particularly on Steven Bartlett and QT, I think he's lost himself in the fame and notarity he's acquired and realised there's a lot more money to be made in spouting non truths and building a platform for himself. Hence I liken him to Farage now in that respect. On Bartlett in particular he came across as very shouty, ranty and full of himself.
He knows as well as I do that a lot of what he says now is nonsense. As does the majority of our community. [Post edited 12 May 13:59]
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:58 - May 12 with 744 views | J2BLUE |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:48 - May 12 by lowhouseblue |
plus, it's something the majority of the public have been very clear about for years and they've been condescendingly ignored. which isn't healthy in a democracy. if starmer can deliver this and also generate growth then we may avoid some version of a reform government in 2029. [Post edited 12 May 13:48]
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Exactly. Some might not like it, but it is a big issue for a lot of people and has been for a long time. | |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 14:22 - May 12 with 704 views | DJR |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 12:21 - May 12 by nrb1985 |
Please let me know how you increase tax take if there’s 50-70% less people to tax when the original paper the govt based their policy on estimated only 10% would leave?
Utterly delusional (them not you). [Post edited 12 May 15:00]
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Yes, I am no economic forecaster, although I have (for my sins) drafted tax legislation.
Here is a link to the recent CEBR report on which some of the recent media coverage has been based, although there is clearly a fair degree of lobbying going on. The section on emigration response literature is interesting.
https://cebr.com/reports/impact-of-changes-to-the-uk-non-domiciled-regime/
And here is a January document from the OBR about costings.
https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Non-doms-supplementary-release-Jan-2025.pdf
The OBR calculations were modelled on a 12 per cent and 25 per cent decrease in 2025-26 in the population of non-domiciles without trusts, and non domiciles with trusts and deemed domiciles respectively
For my own part, I am inclined to think that it will raise revenue overall but probably not as much as forecast. But that is often the case for what is in effect a type of anti-avoidance legislation.
And if it all goes pear-shaped, no doubt they will row back on it further, as they have already done in part. [Post edited 12 May 14:40]
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 14:26 - May 12 with 686 views | Blueschev |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:39 - May 12 by J2BLUE |
Your foundations would hand Reform the next general election. Starmer might well be reacting to public demand rather than basing his actions on principles but if he didn't then Reform would get in.
I know you think compromise is some massive betrayal but it's better to get some things you want than refuse to compromise and get nothing.
The country overwhelmingly rejected Corbyn and although you may not accept that and think the electorate just aren't smart enough to see things the same way you do perhaps you need to accept that the majority in the country are probably centre right with little interest in a radical left wing government? |
There's a difference between compromise and aping the language of the far right in order to take votes away from it, not that Starmer has principles to compromise.
If we accept your premise that the majority of the country are centre right, does that mean therefore that we should just have a centre-right consensus amongst all political parties and never bother to try to win people over to anything else? |  | | |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 14:40 - May 12 with 658 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 13:39 - May 12 by J2BLUE |
Your foundations would hand Reform the next general election. Starmer might well be reacting to public demand rather than basing his actions on principles but if he didn't then Reform would get in.
I know you think compromise is some massive betrayal but it's better to get some things you want than refuse to compromise and get nothing.
The country overwhelmingly rejected Corbyn and although you may not accept that and think the electorate just aren't smart enough to see things the same way you do perhaps you need to accept that the majority in the country are probably centre right with little interest in a radical left wing government? |
Nope those foundations would require him to simply have some principles and the will to develop a counter narrative that doesn't focus on punching down the ladder. The problem is that he is wedded to cheap labour and the demands of the markets and big business so has nowhere to go. Until someone makes the case for fundamental system reform then they are all arguing about your preferred shade of sh1t and the rightward drift will continue. | |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 14:47 - May 12 with 646 views | nrb1985 |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 14:22 - May 12 by DJR |
Yes, I am no economic forecaster, although I have (for my sins) drafted tax legislation.
Here is a link to the recent CEBR report on which some of the recent media coverage has been based, although there is clearly a fair degree of lobbying going on. The section on emigration response literature is interesting.
https://cebr.com/reports/impact-of-changes-to-the-uk-non-domiciled-regime/
And here is a January document from the OBR about costings.
https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Non-doms-supplementary-release-Jan-2025.pdf
The OBR calculations were modelled on a 12 per cent and 25 per cent decrease in 2025-26 in the population of non-domiciles without trusts, and non domiciles with trusts and deemed domiciles respectively
For my own part, I am inclined to think that it will raise revenue overall but probably not as much as forecast. But that is often the case for what is in effect a type of anti-avoidance legislation.
And if it all goes pear-shaped, no doubt they will row back on it further, as they have already done in part. [Post edited 12 May 14:40]
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"The OBR calculations were modelled on a 12 per cent and 25 per cent decrease in 2025-26 in the population of non-domiciles without trusts, and non domiciles with trusts and deemed domiciles respectively"
Pie in the sky. | | | |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:08 - May 12 with 600 views | Herbivore |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 09:41 - May 12 by J2BLUE |
Rightly or wrongly, it's a big issue. If he doesn't do something about it then people concerned by immigration will vote for someone who will.
If this helps keep Farage out of power then I think it's a good thing. |
It won't do anything about Farage, just as people voting for Brexit didn't. By constantly pivoting to positions that are his strength it gives him a legitimacy that his snake oil peddling doesn't deserve. It's been happening in politics and the media for years and we seem to have learnt nothing from over-platforming not just him but also his ideology. |  |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:12 - May 12 with 596 views | blueasfook |
Farage has them all running scared. |  |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:23 - May 12 with 562 views | lowhouseblue |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:08 - May 12 by Herbivore |
It won't do anything about Farage, just as people voting for Brexit didn't. By constantly pivoting to positions that are his strength it gives him a legitimacy that his snake oil peddling doesn't deserve. It's been happening in politics and the media for years and we seem to have learnt nothing from over-platforming not just him but also his ideology. |
in polls 70% think immigration is too high. ignoring that fact and running what starmer describes as a 'one-nation experiment in open borders' hasn't made it go away. farage articulating what a large majority of the public thinks, while the other parties pretended to be deaf to it, gave farage a credibility that is undeserved and he would never otherwise have had. ignoring the public's concerns about immigration while letting the numbers reach unprecedented levels has corroded trust in democracy and given farage an unmerited platform. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:28 - May 12 with 559 views | Blueschev |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:23 - May 12 by lowhouseblue |
in polls 70% think immigration is too high. ignoring that fact and running what starmer describes as a 'one-nation experiment in open borders' hasn't made it go away. farage articulating what a large majority of the public thinks, while the other parties pretended to be deaf to it, gave farage a credibility that is undeserved and he would never otherwise have had. ignoring the public's concerns about immigration while letting the numbers reach unprecedented levels has corroded trust in democracy and given farage an unmerited platform. |
I agree with you to an extent, but why resort to the rhetoric of Farage in order to address people's concerns? That wins no votes for Labour, it merely lends credibility to Farage's dog whistles. | | | |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:28 - May 12 with 557 views | Herbivore |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 11:24 - May 12 by nrb1985 |
Hi - you're not to know this but my industry is Private Banking for the last 14 years and a lot of that was working with non doms.
A big part of our ecosystem is the likes of PwC and the various tax advisors and private client lawyers who are helping them to restructure their affairs now. It's less the abolishment of the non dom regime (albeit that is an own goal) as much as it is the introduction of the new concept of LTR (long term residency) and the IHT implications that has. That's why Mittal, who had long since deemed domicile, got up and left to the UAE.
We won't get the official figures for a couple of years but anecdotally 70% ish of my clients have left (Switzerland, Italy, UAE and channel islands predominantly) and the likes of PwC who deal with the really big guys and gals tell me that's more like 95%.
I had coffee with a tax advisor last week who said that the fabled Warwick paper estimated that only 10% of non doms would leave (I won't go into the Warwick paper and why it's a crock of poop) but that would have meant only around 700 would leave. He has a boutique practice and with only a couple of hundred clients and around 100 of clients there alone have left...
Again, please don't think this is a look at me post etc but I'm telling you first hand the damage it's doing.
Those with the deepest pockets also have the longest legs... [Post edited 12 May 14:59]
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What we really need is to ensure the system is further skewed to favour the super rich, lord knows those guys can't catch a break and haven't continued to get richer while everyone else feels worse off and public services have been destroyed. Won't someone finally think of the wealthy! | |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:47 - May 12 with 521 views | nrb1985 |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:28 - May 12 by Herbivore |
What we really need is to ensure the system is further skewed to favour the super rich, lord knows those guys can't catch a break and haven't continued to get richer while everyone else feels worse off and public services have been destroyed. Won't someone finally think of the wealthy! |
Afternoon Gary.
I've got to the point of not really caring about fairness or otherwise.
I care about making people's lives better and increasing the standard of living, health and public services.
Given we haven't grown the economy organically for two decades, then I'd like to actually grow the tax base by incentivising higher tax payers to come in not doing everything in our power to make them leave whether it be Brexit, Reform or this nonsense.
I assume from your childish and naïve snipe that you think shrinking the tax base in addition to a low growth economy will make things better not worse? if so, please show your workings. [Post edited 12 May 16:00]
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:58 - May 12 with 498 views | MattinLondon |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:23 - May 12 by lowhouseblue |
in polls 70% think immigration is too high. ignoring that fact and running what starmer describes as a 'one-nation experiment in open borders' hasn't made it go away. farage articulating what a large majority of the public thinks, while the other parties pretended to be deaf to it, gave farage a credibility that is undeserved and he would never otherwise have had. ignoring the public's concerns about immigration while letting the numbers reach unprecedented levels has corroded trust in democracy and given farage an unmerited platform. |
I don’t think a lot of people actually know what they want in regards to immigration.
A lot of people voted for Brexit because they didn’t want Eastern Europeans in the country. And let’s face it, culturally and historically there isn’t a lot that separates them from White British people. But then a lot of poles etc left, leaving care homes, farm jobs and the NHS with British people unwilling to work those jobs. And so, those jobs still had to filled but this time from people further afield without the cultural ties to another European country. But still, immigration is an issue - what did they expect? Those jobs to be magically filled by unicorns?
But still a lot aren’t satisfied and want immigrantion slashed - so who is going to pick those fruit, wipe the bums of a lot of elderly people in care homes? But it’s also office cleaners, labourers etc whose jobs are undervalued by society.
And now we have half arsed slogans like ‘stop the boats’ with Farage looking out to see with his wellies on and his Fisher Price binoculars round his neck shouting catchphrases which even Mr Chips will think ‘that’s too cheesy even for me’. And despite being on the news every five minute those boats make up around 3% of the total immigration numbers. You’d think it was 30% instead.
It’s all utter balls - stop immigration but we want a lot to do the jobs we don’t want to you. Oh look at him, that immigrant has worked hard, bettered themselves, it’s all their fault that I can’t get a GP Appointment. |  | | |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 16:06 - May 12 with 466 views | itfcjoe |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:58 - May 12 by MattinLondon |
I don’t think a lot of people actually know what they want in regards to immigration.
A lot of people voted for Brexit because they didn’t want Eastern Europeans in the country. And let’s face it, culturally and historically there isn’t a lot that separates them from White British people. But then a lot of poles etc left, leaving care homes, farm jobs and the NHS with British people unwilling to work those jobs. And so, those jobs still had to filled but this time from people further afield without the cultural ties to another European country. But still, immigration is an issue - what did they expect? Those jobs to be magically filled by unicorns?
But still a lot aren’t satisfied and want immigrantion slashed - so who is going to pick those fruit, wipe the bums of a lot of elderly people in care homes? But it’s also office cleaners, labourers etc whose jobs are undervalued by society.
And now we have half arsed slogans like ‘stop the boats’ with Farage looking out to see with his wellies on and his Fisher Price binoculars round his neck shouting catchphrases which even Mr Chips will think ‘that’s too cheesy even for me’. And despite being on the news every five minute those boats make up around 3% of the total immigration numbers. You’d think it was 30% instead.
It’s all utter balls - stop immigration but we want a lot to do the jobs we don’t want to you. Oh look at him, that immigrant has worked hard, bettered themselves, it’s all their fault that I can’t get a GP Appointment. |
But we've been in positions where we have been electing Govts and voting for Brexit when the promise has been for lower immigration; and in that time it has gone up to the point where under the latter end of the last Tory Govt it was basically an open door policy numbers wise. [Net immigration 3 million over 4 years]
That immigration, post Brexit, is much stickier now than it ever was....and we here all about 'stop the boats' when that is about 40k people out of the 1 million that are coming each year.
We can say we need them to do the more menial jobs as a country, but the infrastructure isn't able to cope with that many extra people coming into the country each year
It's been dishonest policies from the Govts, and we are now in a position where no one has any trust in the powers that be, it wasn't that many years ago that David Cameron was stating net immigration was going to be in the tens of thousands a year and it ends up basically as a million - where is the mandate for that? |  |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 16:10 - May 12 with 456 views | Herbivore |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 12:21 - May 12 by nrb1985 |
Please let me know how you increase tax take if there’s 50-70% less people to tax when the original paper the govt based their policy on estimated only 10% would leave?
Utterly delusional (them not you). [Post edited 12 May 15:00]
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I'm not sure government policy should be based on estimates that are derived from the anecdotal evidence of people working in the private banking sector. | |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 16:17 - May 12 with 441 views | lowhouseblue |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:58 - May 12 by MattinLondon |
I don’t think a lot of people actually know what they want in regards to immigration.
A lot of people voted for Brexit because they didn’t want Eastern Europeans in the country. And let’s face it, culturally and historically there isn’t a lot that separates them from White British people. But then a lot of poles etc left, leaving care homes, farm jobs and the NHS with British people unwilling to work those jobs. And so, those jobs still had to filled but this time from people further afield without the cultural ties to another European country. But still, immigration is an issue - what did they expect? Those jobs to be magically filled by unicorns?
But still a lot aren’t satisfied and want immigrantion slashed - so who is going to pick those fruit, wipe the bums of a lot of elderly people in care homes? But it’s also office cleaners, labourers etc whose jobs are undervalued by society.
And now we have half arsed slogans like ‘stop the boats’ with Farage looking out to see with his wellies on and his Fisher Price binoculars round his neck shouting catchphrases which even Mr Chips will think ‘that’s too cheesy even for me’. And despite being on the news every five minute those boats make up around 3% of the total immigration numbers. You’d think it was 30% instead.
It’s all utter balls - stop immigration but we want a lot to do the jobs we don’t want to you. Oh look at him, that immigrant has worked hard, bettered themselves, it’s all their fault that I can’t get a GP Appointment. |
my only views on the boats is that we have duties under the refugee conventions which we must respect and / but that stopping people risking their lives in the channel would be a very good thing. but the number is small compared to a) legal immigration and b) people overstaying visas and remaining in the country illegally when they should have left (estimated currently at a million).
under brexit immigration had risen to then unprecedented numbers - but they were nearly all economically active, well educated and productive. a high proportion were also short-term. brexit in terms of immigration has been a disaster - i voted remain. the difference post brexit is that net immigration has almost tripled, and there has been a shift towards more non-economically active people (excluding students) and lower skilled workers. we now have some 1.2 million foreign nationals in the uk between 18 and 64 (excluding students) who are not economically active. it makes no sense.
i would be extremely happy just to admit people who we need to come to work be it the nhs, the wider care sector, or high skill sectors. (plus obviously refugees and other humanitarian cases). but the number would then be hugely lower than it is today. we also have a huge number of uk citizens who are currently economically inactive who we need back in the labour market. an economic strategy of importing low skill workers to do low skill work is a disaster. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 16:34 - May 12 with 399 views | Herbivore |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 15:47 - May 12 by nrb1985 |
Afternoon Gary.
I've got to the point of not really caring about fairness or otherwise.
I care about making people's lives better and increasing the standard of living, health and public services.
Given we haven't grown the economy organically for two decades, then I'd like to actually grow the tax base by incentivising higher tax payers to come in not doing everything in our power to make them leave whether it be Brexit, Reform or this nonsense.
I assume from your childish and naïve snipe that you think shrinking the tax base in addition to a low growth economy will make things better not worse? if so, please show your workings. [Post edited 12 May 16:00]
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You've provided a small amount of anecdotal evidence that moves to increase the tax burden on higher earners and non-doms will decrease the tax base while dismissing actual analysis by people qualified to undertake such analysis as being "pie in the sky" or other derogatory terms. You'll forgive me for not taking your scorn badly. | |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 17:11 - May 12 with 339 views | nrb1985 |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 16:34 - May 12 by Herbivore |
You've provided a small amount of anecdotal evidence that moves to increase the tax burden on higher earners and non-doms will decrease the tax base while dismissing actual analysis by people qualified to undertake such analysis as being "pie in the sky" or other derogatory terms. You'll forgive me for not taking your scorn badly. |
By Private Banking sector you mean people at the coal face? As opposed to academics who mostly come from a public policy background.
You're sounding awfully like Michael Gove in as much as we've all had enough of experts...
Believe what you want but you are wrong. | | | |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 17:20 - May 12 with 311 views | Herbivore |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 17:11 - May 12 by nrb1985 |
By Private Banking sector you mean people at the coal face? As opposed to academics who mostly come from a public policy background.
You're sounding awfully like Michael Gove in as much as we've all had enough of experts...
Believe what you want but you are wrong. |
That second paragraph is such delicious irony I'll be tasting it in my dreams.
And lolz at private banking ever being described as "the coal face". You work in finance for very rich people, mate, not A&E. | |
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| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 17:28 - May 12 with 296 views | nrb1985 |
| Starmer's principled positioning .... on 17:20 - May 12 by Herbivore |
That second paragraph is such delicious irony I'll be tasting it in my dreams.
And lolz at private banking ever being described as "the coal face". You work in finance for very rich people, mate, not A&E. |
And even if I did work in A&E I'm sure you'd still rather listen to some Oxbridge type who works in a QUANGO than me :)
P.s. rich people that fund your A&E and contribute more in tax than you will in 10 lifetimes.
Boooo down with more tax revenue to fund our public services. | | | |
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