| Starmer’s judgement 21:20 - Jun 23 with 1566 views | Churchman |
There’s an interesting article in the Independent on Starmer continually getting it wrong with Trump. Specifically on Iran, Ukraine, Tariffs.
Is it correct? Does Starmer lack judgement? Is he just getting caught out sitting on the fence? Or is the orange shtgibbon completely unreadable and everyone bar Putin and Netanyahu getting it wrong too?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/starmer-trump-middle-east-crisis- [Post edited 23 Jun 22:48]
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 21:38 - Jun 23 with 1237 views | BlueBadger |
i suspect he's being exceptionally poorly advised and is sh1t scared to do ANYTHING that might upset the Sun, Mail and GB News.
Plus, he appears to have learnt precisely no lessons from the Biden regime in that he's won an election based on 'I'm not this corrupt, incompetent bigot' and is now clueless as to what to do with the hot seat now he's got it and is terrified of actually trying to DO anything for fear of some wänky focus group saying 'are you sure?'
I suspect he'd be a lot more popular if he'd actually showed some of the courage he's previously shown as a human rights lawyer and shadow Brexit secretary and dared to actually take on the far right, rather than trying to appease them and actually used his sizeable majority in parliament, (a lot of whom appear to genuinely want to do good and not, say, try to reenact Cameron's austerity failures) to actually genuinely do something REAL that benefits the country. [Post edited 23 Jun 22:30]
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 21:42 - Jun 23 with 1209 views | Swansea_Blue |
Being a small, isolated country stuck geographically and politically between two giants is probably dictating his response. His domestic policies suggest he focusses on minimising damage rather than charting a bold course towards a specific goal. I suspect he’s trying to not rock the boat with the US because they’re still hugely influential. It will inevitably make him look weak, but it’s probably best not to piss off the lunatic in the White House. |  |
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:11 - Jun 23 with 1136 views | Guthrum |
I'm not sure Starmer was wrong. When Trump left the G7, he probably did want to make peace in the Middle East. Then he changed his mind (likely because it wasn't a quick and easy fix, or someone told him he could bomb those bits and get away without repercussions).
The mistake is to think that Trump has a long-term plan or fixed positions on things (tho he does harbour longstanding grudges against people). He lives utterly in the moment, even his own past statements are irrelevant. It's not that he's difficult to read, so much as extremely changeable.
Trump likes Starmer. As a result, the UK has got better tariff deals than most places. They differ on Ukraine, but Trump might flip on that if Putin backs Iran against him too heavily. |  |
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:18 - Jun 23 with 1127 views | BlueBadger |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:11 - Jun 23 by Guthrum |
I'm not sure Starmer was wrong. When Trump left the G7, he probably did want to make peace in the Middle East. Then he changed his mind (likely because it wasn't a quick and easy fix, or someone told him he could bomb those bits and get away without repercussions).
The mistake is to think that Trump has a long-term plan or fixed positions on things (tho he does harbour longstanding grudges against people). He lives utterly in the moment, even his own past statements are irrelevant. It's not that he's difficult to read, so much as extremely changeable.
Trump likes Starmer. As a result, the UK has got better tariff deals than most places. They differ on Ukraine, but Trump might flip on that if Putin backs Iran against him too heavily. |
Trump doesn't have a long term position beyond 'will this make me money' and 'does this make me look good'.
The people backing/manipulating him, however.....they DO have an agenda and an idea of where they want to be. Trump will get them there, but there may be a speed bump or two.
The UK's ostensibly 'favourable' deal? That's optics on Trump's part to say 'bend the knee and see what happens. You get some scraps'.
Our position as an isolated nation makes us easy to bully, also. witness Macron and Carney openly taking the piss out of him at G7 last wee, [Post edited 23 Jun 22:26]
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:23 - Jun 23 with 1109 views | redrickstuhaart |
His judgment has been to be pragmatic.
It is impossible to know whether that is correct, because we dont know what the loon would do if he had done differnetly. |  | | |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:31 - Jun 23 with 1083 views | MattinLondon |
Starmer is at his best when he is more aggressive as he has the intelligence to think on his feet to dominate adversaries. Unfortunately he plays it too safe which simply comes across as timid and indecisive.
Whilst at the White House the Us Vice President tried to ambush KS about the supposed lack of free speech in the UK - KS simply brushed him off with relative ease.
I think the electorate needs to see a much more confident Prime Minister instead of one seating on the fence.
I may, or may not have answered your questions. |  | | |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:33 - Jun 23 with 1078 views | J2BLUE |
It's an incredibly complex situation. Some people on here will criticise him for everything as if it's all so simple. He hasn't got everything right but he isn't an idiot either. |  |
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:35 - Jun 23 with 1075 views | BlueBadger |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:33 - Jun 23 by J2BLUE |
It's an incredibly complex situation. Some people on here will criticise him for everything as if it's all so simple. He hasn't got everything right but he isn't an idiot either. |
On the foreign policy side, I broadly agree. Domestically? He's being a fücking coward and needs to stand up a bit, ditch the austerity, the pandering to the Reform crowd(who won't vote for him anyway) and actually look to enact real, positive change rather than offering free samples of Reform and yet more bloody austerity.
The early signs(making noises about a grown up relationship with the EU, the appointment of James Timpson to prisons, the immediate cancellation of the Rwanda farce) were encouraging but it would appear to be that he's lost his nerve in the face of a hostile press.
To his credit, Blair stuck to his guns over a lot of stuff that was fairly controversial at the time. I suspect if Starmer had been in charge in 1997, he'd have backtracked from repealing Section 28(for example) because 'there's a debate to had still as people have some real concerns'. [Post edited 23 Jun 22:39]
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:41 - Jun 23 with 1049 views | J2BLUE |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:35 - Jun 23 by BlueBadger |
On the foreign policy side, I broadly agree. Domestically? He's being a fücking coward and needs to stand up a bit, ditch the austerity, the pandering to the Reform crowd(who won't vote for him anyway) and actually look to enact real, positive change rather than offering free samples of Reform and yet more bloody austerity.
The early signs(making noises about a grown up relationship with the EU, the appointment of James Timpson to prisons, the immediate cancellation of the Rwanda farce) were encouraging but it would appear to be that he's lost his nerve in the face of a hostile press.
To his credit, Blair stuck to his guns over a lot of stuff that was fairly controversial at the time. I suspect if Starmer had been in charge in 1997, he'd have backtracked from repealing Section 28(for example) because 'there's a debate to had still as people have some real concerns'. [Post edited 23 Jun 22:39]
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Agree with that. | |
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:46 - Jun 23 with 1028 views | Guthrum |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:18 - Jun 23 by BlueBadger |
Trump doesn't have a long term position beyond 'will this make me money' and 'does this make me look good'.
The people backing/manipulating him, however.....they DO have an agenda and an idea of where they want to be. Trump will get them there, but there may be a speed bump or two.
The UK's ostensibly 'favourable' deal? That's optics on Trump's part to say 'bend the knee and see what happens. You get some scraps'.
Our position as an isolated nation makes us easy to bully, also. witness Macron and Carney openly taking the piss out of him at G7 last wee, [Post edited 23 Jun 22:26]
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The people backing/manipulating Trump do not have a single, unified agenda, either. They are a quite disparate constellation of groups, lobbies and interests, each trying to get the king's ear and to undermine rivals. They managed to keep it together enough to get their man into the White House, but don't even like each other.
That's partly why Trump flip-flops so badly. What's being whispered in his ear is not consistent, either.
"Bend the knee and get some scraps" has been the USA's international diplomatic position since the 1940s - and not just for the UK. About the only country in a closer relationship than that has been Israel, for somewhat individual reasons. | |
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:55 - Jun 23 with 987 views | BlueBadger |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:31 - Jun 23 by MattinLondon |
Starmer is at his best when he is more aggressive as he has the intelligence to think on his feet to dominate adversaries. Unfortunately he plays it too safe which simply comes across as timid and indecisive.
Whilst at the White House the Us Vice President tried to ambush KS about the supposed lack of free speech in the UK - KS simply brushed him off with relative ease.
I think the electorate needs to see a much more confident Prime Minister instead of one seating on the fence.
I may, or may not have answered your questions. |
That. We need more of the Starmer who casually but forensically destroyed Johnson, Truss and Sunak week in week out at the ballot box and less of the Starmer who says stuff like 'well actually Israel have some Very Real Concerns'. [Post edited 23 Jun 22:57]
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| Starmer’s judgement on 23:10 - Jun 23 with 927 views | Churchman |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:35 - Jun 23 by BlueBadger |
On the foreign policy side, I broadly agree. Domestically? He's being a fücking coward and needs to stand up a bit, ditch the austerity, the pandering to the Reform crowd(who won't vote for him anyway) and actually look to enact real, positive change rather than offering free samples of Reform and yet more bloody austerity.
The early signs(making noises about a grown up relationship with the EU, the appointment of James Timpson to prisons, the immediate cancellation of the Rwanda farce) were encouraging but it would appear to be that he's lost his nerve in the face of a hostile press.
To his credit, Blair stuck to his guns over a lot of stuff that was fairly controversial at the time. I suspect if Starmer had been in charge in 1997, he'd have backtracked from repealing Section 28(for example) because 'there's a debate to had still as people have some real concerns'. [Post edited 23 Jun 22:39]
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I agree with you and J2 on Starmer.
I get a sense of inertia about him in that in by trying to be all things to all people, he’s in reality getting nowhere with anyone. He’s been in the job about a year now and maybe what we see is not how it is behind the scenes. That is often the case.
Starmer is clearly a clever, thoughtful man (total opposite to say Trump or Truss, let alone that berk Farage). I couldn’t care a less that he is beyond dull or knows how to fill in expenses, as long as it’s in the rules. Even following Arsenal doesn’t worry me.
But does he have principles, judgement, can he lead and has he the capacity to make a decision? I just don’t know. | | | |
| Starmer’s judgement on 23:32 - Jun 23 with 865 views | giant_stow |
Some wise comments on this thread which don't need to be repeated, to be agreed with. Only thing id add is that it's too soon to judge Starmer's perfomace re Trump - only been 6 months or whatever so far. (Gawd the mind boggles at what could be to come) [Post edited 23 Jun 23:32]
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| Starmer’s judgement on 23:42 - Jun 23 with 829 views | Churchman |
| Starmer’s judgement on 23:32 - Jun 23 by giant_stow |
Some wise comments on this thread which don't need to be repeated, to be agreed with. Only thing id add is that it's too soon to judge Starmer's perfomace re Trump - only been 6 months or whatever so far. (Gawd the mind boggles at what could be to come) [Post edited 23 Jun 23:32]
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The other factor with Trump is just how do you deal with him? Unless you are powerfully like Xi and Putin will you get anywhere for long? Certainly internally it was here today gone tomorrow with Musk.
I know instinctively you have to hit bullies head on, but I’m no politician. Toadying to them will never work though, even if Trump does adore flattery. Or is Starmer playing hard ball behind the scenes? That’s where your point re 6 months is interesting and a fair one.. [Post edited 23 Jun 23:44]
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| Starmer’s judgement on 02:26 - Jun 24 with 712 views | Guthrum |
| Starmer’s judgement on 23:42 - Jun 23 by Churchman |
The other factor with Trump is just how do you deal with him? Unless you are powerfully like Xi and Putin will you get anywhere for long? Certainly internally it was here today gone tomorrow with Musk.
I know instinctively you have to hit bullies head on, but I’m no politician. Toadying to them will never work though, even if Trump does adore flattery. Or is Starmer playing hard ball behind the scenes? That’s where your point re 6 months is interesting and a fair one.. [Post edited 23 Jun 23:44]
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You can only hit bullies head on if you are strong enough. Otherwise, you may need to bide your time, gather allies, build up your strength, find their weaknesses - then they can be dealt with. | |
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 03:47 - Jun 24 with 674 views | Benters |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:31 - Jun 23 by MattinLondon |
Starmer is at his best when he is more aggressive as he has the intelligence to think on his feet to dominate adversaries. Unfortunately he plays it too safe which simply comes across as timid and indecisive.
Whilst at the White House the Us Vice President tried to ambush KS about the supposed lack of free speech in the UK - KS simply brushed him off with relative ease.
I think the electorate needs to see a much more confident Prime Minister instead of one seating on the fence.
I may, or may not have answered your questions. |
Did he ? He looked pretty unsettled to me. |  |
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| Starmer’s judgement on 06:50 - Jun 24 with 610 views | DJR |
There are things to criticise Starmer about but I am not really convinced about the premise of the article given that no one really knows what Trump will do (even Trump). And whilst the toadying has been rather distasteful, it is part of a strategy that has secured the only trade deal, albeit one which is not perfect. [Post edited 24 Jun 6:55]
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| Starmer’s judgemen on 09:29 - Jun 24 with 471 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 22:31 - Jun 23 by MattinLondon |
Starmer is at his best when he is more aggressive as he has the intelligence to think on his feet to dominate adversaries. Unfortunately he plays it too safe which simply comes across as timid and indecisive.
Whilst at the White House the Us Vice President tried to ambush KS about the supposed lack of free speech in the UK - KS simply brushed him off with relative ease.
I think the electorate needs to see a much more confident Prime Minister instead of one seating on the fence.
I may, or may not have answered your questions. |
Given Starmer's barrister/legal training, he's doing exactly what i'd expect him to.
Balancing attack and defence at the right time and knowing when there is no point arguing over smaller points. But that 'concession' is actually setting up a bigger 'win' further down the line.
Trump is so unpredictable (and a liar), it must be almost impossible to manage him. What he says 60 seconds ago can change and then he'll say it never changed too.
Starmer has dealt with him well imo, but will be hating every moment of having to deal with such an unethical and morally repugnant adversary.
The way his dealings are portrayed in the media are very different to the reality of within the civil service and Government departments. It's not what matters to the public though, which is a problem Starmer needs to address. |  | | |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 09:50 - Jun 24 with 445 views | Churchman |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 09:29 - Jun 24 by ElderGrizzly |
Given Starmer's barrister/legal training, he's doing exactly what i'd expect him to.
Balancing attack and defence at the right time and knowing when there is no point arguing over smaller points. But that 'concession' is actually setting up a bigger 'win' further down the line.
Trump is so unpredictable (and a liar), it must be almost impossible to manage him. What he says 60 seconds ago can change and then he'll say it never changed too.
Starmer has dealt with him well imo, but will be hating every moment of having to deal with such an unethical and morally repugnant adversary.
The way his dealings are portrayed in the media are very different to the reality of within the civil service and Government departments. It's not what matters to the public though, which is a problem Starmer needs to address. |
Re your last paragraph, do you know how he works with Civil Servants/Govt departments? I’m just curious, given I’ve not worked in that world since 2019 and have no idea how he operates.
Anyone from Blair/Brown to May/Hammond, yes - along with Yvette Cooper and Hilary Benn and one or two others but most of the ‘players’ have gone or slumbering in the HoL after those fine lunches.
You are right, politicians public face and media portrayal was for the most part very different to how they were behind the scenes. I guess when it comes to it, that’s why I started this thread | | | |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 09:51 - Jun 24 with 441 views | mellowblue |
| Starmer’s judgemen on 21:42 - Jun 23 by Swansea_Blue |
Being a small, isolated country stuck geographically and politically between two giants is probably dictating his response. His domestic policies suggest he focusses on minimising damage rather than charting a bold course towards a specific goal. I suspect he’s trying to not rock the boat with the US because they’re still hugely influential. It will inevitably make him look weak, but it’s probably best not to piss off the lunatic in the White House. |
there is a weight of history in this as well. As you say it would be the wisest to pee off the US with a resurgent Russia. Allies gotta be allies. (Or at least seen to be) | | | |
| Starmer’s judgement on 10:31 - Jun 24 with 391 views | jasondozzell |
He doesn't have any principles and is an extremely mediocre politician, orator and operator.
People who are desperate to save face still want to believe in the idea that he is a 'forensic' lawyer. The death throes of a professional managerial class
that are culpable for much of the state of the country. [Post edited 24 Jun 10:33]
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| Starmer’s judgement on 10:39 - Jun 24 with 366 views | Bigalhunter |
| Starmer’s judgement on 10:31 - Jun 24 by jasondozzell |
He doesn't have any principles and is an extremely mediocre politician, orator and operator.
People who are desperate to save face still want to believe in the idea that he is a 'forensic' lawyer. The death throes of a professional managerial class
that are culpable for much of the state of the country. [Post edited 24 Jun 10:33]
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Throes |  |
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| Starmer’s judgement on 10:40 - Jun 24 with 362 views | jasondozzell |
| Starmer’s judgement on 10:39 - Jun 24 by Bigalhunter |
Throes |
You'll have to take my word for it that I spelt it correctly and autocorrect changed it to throws. | | | |
| Starmer’s judgement on 11:03 - Jun 24 with 322 views | Steve_M |
It's far less that Starmer is 'getting Trump wrong' as much as that trying to deal with such an unstable, vain and capricious man allows for far less leeway than, say, firing off an opinion column.
The UK's nuclear weapons, and rather too much of our ability to use our armed forces are constrained by the USA, a result of decades of political choices - and ignoring that is naïve at very best.
It was very telling that Starmer's comments on Iran are broadly in line with those from the EU and European leaders pointing to a degree of co-ordination.
There are far more reasonable criticisms of Starmer domestically, even allowing for the constraints left by the last government, but internationally he's got a lot more right than wrong so far. |  |
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| Starmer’s judgement on 11:08 - Jun 24 with 311 views | jasondozzell |
| Starmer’s judgement on 11:03 - Jun 24 by Steve_M |
It's far less that Starmer is 'getting Trump wrong' as much as that trying to deal with such an unstable, vain and capricious man allows for far less leeway than, say, firing off an opinion column.
The UK's nuclear weapons, and rather too much of our ability to use our armed forces are constrained by the USA, a result of decades of political choices - and ignoring that is naïve at very best.
It was very telling that Starmer's comments on Iran are broadly in line with those from the EU and European leaders pointing to a degree of co-ordination.
There are far more reasonable criticisms of Starmer domestically, even allowing for the constraints left by the last government, but internationally he's got a lot more right than wrong so far. |
Just can't agree on that, sorry.
He's made blunder after blunder again through having no principles.
We've become a vassal state to the US because of a very tired idea of a pecial relationship that must be adhered to. That may have been fine at the end of the 20th Century but we're in a different world. Pragmatism only works if you're getting something out of it.
He's materially supported a genocide. It is shocking.
Labour this week couldn't even answer the question of whether they thought the US bombing of Iran was legal or not. [Post edited 24 Jun 11:09]
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