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Voting age being lowered to 16 then 11:04 - Jul 17 with 5096 viewsNedPlimpton

can't say i'm 100% either way on this, but it feels like a positive

Will help to get young people more engaged in politics if they are able to actually have a voice. Also I suppose it's only fair that if you are paying NI or income tax at the age of 16 then you have a say on how that money is being spent

Any strong feelings either way?
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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:04 - Jul 17 with 498 viewsTrequartista

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 14:31 - Jul 17 by Herbivore

I said Brexit and Johnson have been terrible for the country, not that they have been a mistake. I'm not sure why I'm having to restate this once again. It is my opinion that Brexit is a mistake, yes, because Brexit has been terrible for the country, and I have provided you lots of evidence why this is the case. You are the one who has introduced the word mistake here because I think you've realised that the weight of evidence means it's hard to argue that Brexit hasn't been incredibly bad and thus it is not just an opinion to say so. I don't really want to play your games on this to be honest.

The point I was making is that Brexit has been terrible for the exact reasons that the majority of experts (but we've had enough of those!) said it would be terrible before the referendum. By contrast, the sunlit uplands promised by Farage and Johnson, which were always a fantasy, haven't materialised. This would suggest that older people, who disproportionately voted for Brexit, didn't do a great job of weighing up and evaluating the evidence in front of them.

Your view that experience somehow equals wisdom is incredibly outdated. We can learn from experience, but many don't. Saying that young people aren't going to be clued up in the way older people are is your opinion, I was countering your opinion with a worked example that suggests older people aren't clued up either.


Not playing any games. Quite happy to give my opinion that Brexit has been bad. Didn't vote for it. Accepted the vote. Wouldn't vote for it again if offered. I just introduced the word mistake to try to define a conclusion which is an opinion as opposed to the factual evidence that backs up that opinion.

We are already in agreement to all intents and purposes of the impact of Brexit, so why keep banging on about your evidence when that's not the argument I made.

I merely pointed out that "We ended up with Brexit" is only an argument for older people being less capable voters if Brexit was a mistake, which is only an opinion at the end of the day.

Not withstanding the opinion as fact argument, it's a bit one-dimensional just pick out Brexit and Boris Johnson. There are surely many other topics where older people have much more knowledge of how the world works as opposed to a utopian worldview of a younger voter for example.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:07 - Jul 17 with 473 viewsTrequartista

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 14:41 - Jul 17 by Herbivore

And in Scotland, I think Wales too.


Yep in their devolved government, but obviously not in their general election until the UK does.

Of course the short list shouldn't change anyone's opinion about it being good or bad, but was genuinely surprised how many countries are not there, given the ferocity of backing on here.
[Post edited 17 Jul 15:09]

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:07 - Jul 17 with 473 viewsBluecoin

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:03 - Jul 17 by StokieBlue

Given the crimes he's been charged with that would be horrible.

SB
[Post edited 17 Jul 15:05]


He has in the past actually. Not my words, Carol.

That was a quick edit, BTW!
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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:11 - Jul 17 with 455 viewsTrequartista

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 14:43 - Jul 17 by NedPlimpton

To be fair if those two think something is a bad idea, then it really doesn't take much critical thinking to know it's likely to be be a benefit to wider society!


This is exactly where we are going wrong.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:12 - Jul 17 with 448 viewsHerbivore

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:04 - Jul 17 by Trequartista

Not playing any games. Quite happy to give my opinion that Brexit has been bad. Didn't vote for it. Accepted the vote. Wouldn't vote for it again if offered. I just introduced the word mistake to try to define a conclusion which is an opinion as opposed to the factual evidence that backs up that opinion.

We are already in agreement to all intents and purposes of the impact of Brexit, so why keep banging on about your evidence when that's not the argument I made.

I merely pointed out that "We ended up with Brexit" is only an argument for older people being less capable voters if Brexit was a mistake, which is only an opinion at the end of the day.

Not withstanding the opinion as fact argument, it's a bit one-dimensional just pick out Brexit and Boris Johnson. There are surely many other topics where older people have much more knowledge of how the world works as opposed to a utopian worldview of a younger voter for example.


We're talking about people being able to vote, surely it's relevant to focus on the voting record of people rather than on their knowledge of how to fill out a tax return?

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:16 - Jul 17 with 424 viewsCheltenham_Blue

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 11:45 - Jul 17 by Trequartista

Ambivalent I would say. Pros and cons pretty much matched.

I can see why someone who pays taxes etc deserves a vote, on the other hand you're letting in proportionally more people who don't really have a clue what they are voting for, not because they're stupid but just inexperienced.

It's a bit like reducing the speed limits to 20mph on all 30mph roads. Fewer people will be injured, but then fewer people will also be injured at 1mph than 20mph, so you have to draw the line somewhere where proportionally the rate decreases the most (or the least with voting). I'm not convinced that's 20mph, and I'm not convinced that's 16 years old.


"the other hand you're letting in proportionally more people who don't really have a clue what they are voting for"

You remember Brexit don't you? And your argument against is pretty much word for word why women were denied a vote.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:16 - Jul 17 with 425 viewsTrequartista

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 14:48 - Jul 17 by baxterbasics

I do think more will vote to the right than some think.

My wife and I have 5 kids between us aged from 18 to 26.

All bar one would almost certainly be Conservative or Reform. Two have long term partners who are the same. The one that isn't is more likely to not bother at all out of apathy.

I really don't think they've just followed my lead because they mostly ignore or reject my opinions about anything!


Again anecdotally, so not making any claims here, but I get the feeling it is boys in the 16-17 group that may vote Reform in significant numbers, but not girls.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:17 - Jul 17 with 419 viewsitfcjoe

Good news for Reform and the Greens at the moment...!

But I think they should be able to vote, a lot of them will be working, they will eb adults for the majority of the term they vote in, no taxation without representation and all that.

Yes some/many won't know much about politics but that is true of the general population.

Getting people registered and engaged in civic activity whilst at school is a good thing as we are a politically stupid country - and also it will mean the main parties will have to start doing things to help the young as well as the old

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:19 - Jul 17 with 404 viewsfootball

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 14:48 - Jul 17 by baxterbasics

I do think more will vote to the right than some think.

My wife and I have 5 kids between us aged from 18 to 26.

All bar one would almost certainly be Conservative or Reform. Two have long term partners who are the same. The one that isn't is more likely to not bother at all out of apathy.

I really don't think they've just followed my lead because they mostly ignore or reject my opinions about anything!


I know many 16 year olds through my kids and none of them would vote labour. Without exception they are all conservative or reform
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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:21 - Jul 17 with 387 viewsTrequartista

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:16 - Jul 17 by Cheltenham_Blue

"the other hand you're letting in proportionally more people who don't really have a clue what they are voting for"

You remember Brexit don't you? And your argument against is pretty much word for word why women were denied a vote.


If women were denied a vote for not having the experience of men then that would have been based on a lie, whereas a 32-year-old having more experience of the world than a 16-year-old is not.
[Post edited 17 Jul 15:21]

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:21 - Jul 17 with 386 viewsHerbivore

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:19 - Jul 17 by football

I know many 16 year olds through my kids and none of them would vote labour. Without exception they are all conservative or reform


Another one. Isn't it odd that all the Tories/Reform lot on here only know 16/17 year olds that would also vote Tory/Reform. Who'd have thunk it!

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:22 - Jul 17 with 371 viewsBluecoin

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:19 - Jul 17 by football

I know many 16 year olds through my kids and none of them would vote labour. Without exception they are all conservative or reform


It's also the girls. And those I have spoken to are very open about Immigration being the main reason.

I really think this will be yet another own goal by labour, and they can't U turn from this one!
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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:29 - Jul 17 with 317 viewsTrequartista

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:12 - Jul 17 by Herbivore

We're talking about people being able to vote, surely it's relevant to focus on the voting record of people rather than on their knowledge of how to fill out a tax return?


I didn't really have tax returns in mind lol. If tax returns are online, 16-17 olds would be exactly the group I would expect to be the most adept!

More along the lines of how previous governments have acted when elected, how certain policies look great on paper but practical experience of living through them may suggest otherwise, that sort of thing.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:32 - Jul 17 with 309 viewsuefa81glory

this might sound silly but I've always advocated for 16-18 year olds to get 1/2 vote. They have a stake in the country, but most don't pay taxes.
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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:32 - Jul 17 with 308 viewsHerbivore

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:29 - Jul 17 by Trequartista

I didn't really have tax returns in mind lol. If tax returns are online, 16-17 olds would be exactly the group I would expect to be the most adept!

More along the lines of how previous governments have acted when elected, how certain policies look great on paper but practical experience of living through them may suggest otherwise, that sort of thing.


The older generations have lived through plenty of Tory governments and still vote Tory. Experience is one thing, the ability to learn from experience is quite another.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:45 - Jul 17 with 269 viewsTrequartista

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:32 - Jul 17 by Herbivore

The older generations have lived through plenty of Tory governments and still vote Tory. Experience is one thing, the ability to learn from experience is quite another.


Perhaps they felt an obligation to vote and felt it was the least worst option. I've never voted Tory, but you could make a case for that, certainly if you felt Jeremy Corbyn was a danger to national security.

Again we're straying into a political opinion of Tory being the worst governments, an opinion i agree with, but an opinion nonetheless.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:48 - Jul 17 with 259 viewsbartyg

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:22 - Jul 17 by Bluecoin

It's also the girls. And those I have spoken to are very open about Immigration being the main reason.

I really think this will be yet another own goal by labour, and they can't U turn from this one!


You must be so proud.
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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:55 - Jul 17 with 235 viewsHerbivore

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:45 - Jul 17 by Trequartista

Perhaps they felt an obligation to vote and felt it was the least worst option. I've never voted Tory, but you could make a case for that, certainly if you felt Jeremy Corbyn was a danger to national security.

Again we're straying into a political opinion of Tory being the worst governments, an opinion i agree with, but an opinion nonetheless.


Sure, but we're discussing your opinion that people living longer makes them better equipped to vote and thus far you aren't presenting a very compelling case to support that opinion.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:03 - Jul 17 with 211 viewsBluecoin

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:48 - Jul 17 by bartyg

You must be so proud.


I'm OK with them having an opinion. And I'm OK with them being able to vote for who they like. That's the whole point, isn't it?

I'm not sure what you mean, really.
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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:10 - Jul 17 with 191 viewsTrequartista

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 15:55 - Jul 17 by Herbivore

Sure, but we're discussing your opinion that people living longer makes them better equipped to vote and thus far you aren't presenting a very compelling case to support that opinion.


It's not really "living longer", I'm not saying all the best voters are over 70 or some such - maybe its 25-35, that would invalidate that whole Brexit argument at a stroke!

Anyway look at it like this. You wouldn't give a 9-year-old the vote, I hope we agree, so there is a gradual increase in competency, experience etc until let's say 18 where we would agree you are old enough to vote. An 18 year old is not as experienced as a 30 year old I would say, but where is the biggest incremental increase in this experience? I would say its between 16-18.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:14 - Jul 17 with 190 viewscressi

Vote most are snowflakes today
Don't want to work what they should introduce if you are fit and healthy don't work for two yrs you lose your right to vote, but to be honest they don't care. This country is in a right old muddle.
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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:18 - Jul 17 with 166 viewsHerbivore

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:10 - Jul 17 by Trequartista

It's not really "living longer", I'm not saying all the best voters are over 70 or some such - maybe its 25-35, that would invalidate that whole Brexit argument at a stroke!

Anyway look at it like this. You wouldn't give a 9-year-old the vote, I hope we agree, so there is a gradual increase in competency, experience etc until let's say 18 where we would agree you are old enough to vote. An 18 year old is not as experienced as a 30 year old I would say, but where is the biggest incremental increase in this experience? I would say its between 16-18.


A 16 year old developmentally is going to be much closer to an 18 year old than to a 9 year old. If a 16 year old was sleeping with an 18 year old it would be a consensual sexual relationship, if a 16 year old was sleeping with a 9 year old it'd be something quite different. I'd also say a 30 year old sleeping with an 18 year old is WAY more creepy than an 18 year old sleeping with a 16 year old. Basically, I'm not sure your argument that 16-18 is a massive developmental leap really holds.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:19 - Jul 17 with 161 viewsNedPlimpton

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:14 - Jul 17 by cressi

Vote most are snowflakes today
Don't want to work what they should introduce if you are fit and healthy don't work for two yrs you lose your right to vote, but to be honest they don't care. This country is in a right old muddle.


Vote most are snowflakes? Not sure what this means

Then I think you're saying that people don't want to work? Is that right?

Are you then saying that only working people should vote, but that people don't care (not sure if you mean they don't care about work or about voting here)?

I don't think the country is the only thing that's in a right old muddle!
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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:24 - Jul 17 with 142 viewsHerbivore

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:14 - Jul 17 by cressi

Vote most are snowflakes today
Don't want to work what they should introduce if you are fit and healthy don't work for two yrs you lose your right to vote, but to be honest they don't care. This country is in a right old muddle.


So you're saying that once people have been retired for 2 years they should no longer be able to vote? Not the worst idea.

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Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:26 - Jul 17 with 130 viewsStokieBlue

Voting age being lowered to 16 then on 16:14 - Jul 17 by cressi

Vote most are snowflakes today
Don't want to work what they should introduce if you are fit and healthy don't work for two yrs you lose your right to vote, but to be honest they don't care. This country is in a right old muddle.


I'm glad you're not in charge.

I think it's views like yours that are getting this country in a muddle. Read your post back, it's hardly democratic is it?

SB
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