| Another nail in the coffin 11:40 - Sep 3 with 1949 views | DJR |
and further evidence of ineptitude on the part of individuals in the government.
There has also been some suggestion that the emergence of this story is the result of briefing by factions in the government who see Rayner as a threat to Starmer.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/03/angela-rayner-admits-underpayin
"Angela Rayner admits underpaying stamp duty on £800,000 seaside flat" [Post edited 3 Sep 11:41]
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| Another nail in the coffin on 11:46 - Sep 3 with 1716 views | SitfcB |
We all make mistakes. Sounds pretty genuine.
In a subsequent interview with Beth Rigby, a visibly upset Ms Rayner said: "I've been in shock, really, because I thought I'd done everything properly, and I relied on the advice that I received and I'm devastated because I've always upheld the rules and always have felt proud to do that.
"That it is devastating for me and the fact that the reason why those confidential clauses were in place was to protect my son, who, through no fault of his own, he's vulnerable, he's got this life changing, lifelong conditions and I don't want him or anything to do with his day-to-day life, to be subjected to that level of scrutiny."
Asked if she thought about quitting rather than disclose the details about her son, the cabinet minister added: "I spoke to my family about it. I spoke to my ex-husband, who has been an incredibly supportive person because he knows that all I've done is try and support my family and help them."
https://news.sky.com/story/angela-rayner-admits-she-should-have-paid-more-stamp- |  |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 11:52 - Sep 3 with 1638 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Did she not have the nous to make sure she was paying the full and correct tax given the position she was in? Presumably she asked those questions of her financial advisors, and if misled will now bring action against them?
Record national debt, failing services, and record levels of personal taxes - the optics are dreadful. Either greedy or complete lack of judgement, either way it’s poor. Not totally surprising given the complete ineptitude of this government.
It’s a shame there was so much optimism when the last dreadful government were ejected, unfortunately it seems they’ve just been replaced by other politicians of ineptitude and morally vacuous. |  | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 11:59 - Sep 3 with 1554 views | DJR |
| Another nail in the coffin on 11:52 - Sep 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Did she not have the nous to make sure she was paying the full and correct tax given the position she was in? Presumably she asked those questions of her financial advisors, and if misled will now bring action against them?
Record national debt, failing services, and record levels of personal taxes - the optics are dreadful. Either greedy or complete lack of judgement, either way it’s poor. Not totally surprising given the complete ineptitude of this government.
It’s a shame there was so much optimism when the last dreadful government were ejected, unfortunately it seems they’ve just been replaced by other politicians of ineptitude and morally vacuous. |
A common theme may well be incompetent advisers but you would have thought they had learnt their lesson after the furore early on about free clothes and tickets.
And with her role in relation to housing, she needed the best possible advisers in this case, particularly given concerns a year or so ago about the tax/council tax position in relation to her home in her constituency: assuming of course that it is bad advice which is the issue. [Post edited 3 Sep 12:00]
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| Another nail in the coffin on 12:04 - Sep 3 with 1507 views | _clive_baker_ |
Genuine question, how is it that these life long politicians often seem to have the means to buy £800k second homes on their salaries? Think I read somewhere politicians average about 2 homes each, with 40% owning more than 1. Obviously a lot of the Tories are from old money and positions of privilege, but I didn't have Rayner down as that as a single mother of 3.
I'm not judging at all, no reason why she can't or shouldn't, and appreciate they earn decent money, but I guess my question is are there other legitimate means of politicians making a lot of dough while serving? I don't know many people on civvy street who earn similar money being in a position to do that. |  | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:05 - Sep 3 with 1501 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Another nail in the coffin on 11:52 - Sep 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Did she not have the nous to make sure she was paying the full and correct tax given the position she was in? Presumably she asked those questions of her financial advisors, and if misled will now bring action against them?
Record national debt, failing services, and record levels of personal taxes - the optics are dreadful. Either greedy or complete lack of judgement, either way it’s poor. Not totally surprising given the complete ineptitude of this government.
It’s a shame there was so much optimism when the last dreadful government were ejected, unfortunately it seems they’ve just been replaced by other politicians of ineptitude and morally vacuous. |
I prefer to believe that she thought she could get away with it but got found out.
Not the first to be in that position and not the last. |  |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 12:06 - Sep 3 with 1486 views | Blueschev |
| Another nail in the coffin on 11:52 - Sep 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Did she not have the nous to make sure she was paying the full and correct tax given the position she was in? Presumably she asked those questions of her financial advisors, and if misled will now bring action against them?
Record national debt, failing services, and record levels of personal taxes - the optics are dreadful. Either greedy or complete lack of judgement, either way it’s poor. Not totally surprising given the complete ineptitude of this government.
It’s a shame there was so much optimism when the last dreadful government were ejected, unfortunately it seems they’ve just been replaced by other politicians of ineptitude and morally vacuous. |
Could she not have waited until she was out of office before buying her second home? It'll only be four years.
Rayner gets so much unwarranted and frankly disgusting abuse online, it's awful. But I cannot justify this in any way. What is a Labour Minister doing buying a second home in the midst of a housing crisis anyhow? |  | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:07 - Sep 3 with 1486 views | Kievthegreat |
| Another nail in the coffin on 11:52 - Sep 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Did she not have the nous to make sure she was paying the full and correct tax given the position she was in? Presumably she asked those questions of her financial advisors, and if misled will now bring action against them?
Record national debt, failing services, and record levels of personal taxes - the optics are dreadful. Either greedy or complete lack of judgement, either way it’s poor. Not totally surprising given the complete ineptitude of this government.
It’s a shame there was so much optimism when the last dreadful government were ejected, unfortunately it seems they’ve just been replaced by other politicians of ineptitude and morally vacuous. |
It seems bizarre to talk of nous when by all accounts she sought expert advice. If I seek expert advice on a legal or financial matter and their judgement or advice is wrong, that is not a lack of nous on my part.
If she supplied wrong information then it could perhaps be on her. It could well be an honest mistake on all parties because it's pretty unique circumstances with non-obvious implications. |  | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:14 - Sep 3 with 1427 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:07 - Sep 3 by Kievthegreat |
It seems bizarre to talk of nous when by all accounts she sought expert advice. If I seek expert advice on a legal or financial matter and their judgement or advice is wrong, that is not a lack of nous on my part.
If she supplied wrong information then it could perhaps be on her. It could well be an honest mistake on all parties because it's pretty unique circumstances with non-obvious implications. |
If she asked them searching questions then perhaps she should take action against them for negligent advice.
Plus as Deputy PM she has a literal world of resources available to her that us plebs don’t. She could easy have sought casual advice, or a second opinion from the wealth of government tax experts, lawyers, and advisors.
Again people will wave this kind of thing away, and that’s probably why MP’s do try and get away with things, and why we get the calibre of politicians that we do. | | | |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 12:17 - Sep 3 with 1405 views | giant_stow |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:06 - Sep 3 by Blueschev |
Could she not have waited until she was out of office before buying her second home? It'll only be four years.
Rayner gets so much unwarranted and frankly disgusting abuse online, it's awful. But I cannot justify this in any way. What is a Labour Minister doing buying a second home in the midst of a housing crisis anyhow? |
i get your general point about a labour mp buying a second home, but do we know why she bought this one? Doesn't her fella live down there? Or is it just an investment soon to be seen on Airbandb? |  |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 12:20 - Sep 3 with 1369 views | Rimsy |
Not difficult is it. Buy a house and pay stamp duty above the threshold. She's squirming now she's been rumbled. |  |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 12:31 - Sep 3 with 1305 views | BloomBlue |
Surely she could have asked the Secretary of State for Housing, for advise on property stamp duty?
Raynes problem is she criticised Sunak's wife around potential tax avoidance, a person who isn't a politican, and Rayner herself has now avoided tax. 'It was a mistake' doesn't wash. Tax is your personal responsibility, even if you use an adviser.
Part of me feels slightly sorry for her, the entire 2nd home stamp/council tax/CGT has been misused for too long. The ability to class a home as your main home but not live in, just to avoid CGT when you sell, is crazy, then throw in council tax.
People have been caught out with using that for ages, and advisers will always look to use that to avoid tax. Rayner is just one of those whose aim was to avoid tax.
She should sue the adviser, but I bet their argument will be that they explained everything and she agreed/signed off |  | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:32 - Sep 3 with 1301 views | Kievthegreat |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:20 - Sep 3 by Rimsy |
Not difficult is it. Buy a house and pay stamp duty above the threshold. She's squirming now she's been rumbled. |
She did pay stamp duty. However the complication is that she should have paid the higher rate because her son having a house in trust that she lives in part time still counts as her owning a home.
The question which presumably the ethic committee will investigate is whether she was given bad advice because the advisor made a mistake or whether she gave misleading information or failed to declare relevent interests. | | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:33 - Sep 3 with 1278 views | chicoazul |
“I relied on the advice I was given”
So weird how these clever people become so stupid when it comes to tax and their personal finances. Whatever can this mean??!!?? |  |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 13:33 - Sep 3 with 1097 views | soupytwist |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:04 - Sep 3 by _clive_baker_ |
Genuine question, how is it that these life long politicians often seem to have the means to buy £800k second homes on their salaries? Think I read somewhere politicians average about 2 homes each, with 40% owning more than 1. Obviously a lot of the Tories are from old money and positions of privilege, but I didn't have Rayner down as that as a single mother of 3.
I'm not judging at all, no reason why she can't or shouldn't, and appreciate they earn decent money, but I guess my question is are there other legitimate means of politicians making a lot of dough while serving? I don't know many people on civvy street who earn similar money being in a position to do that. |
In her case, she was able to by indirectly "using a payment that was granted after a deeply personal and distressing incident involving her son as a premature baby”.
That implies some kind of negligence case brought by Rayner, although the details are understandably not in the public domain. |  | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 13:44 - Sep 3 with 1041 views | CastroSito |
| Another nail in the coffin on 12:33 - Sep 3 by chicoazul |
“I relied on the advice I was given”
So weird how these clever people become so stupid when it comes to tax and their personal finances. Whatever can this mean??!!?? |
That she's not a tax expert and paid someone who, supposedly, was? | | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 13:46 - Sep 3 with 1026 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Another nail in the coffin on 11:46 - Sep 3 by SitfcB |
We all make mistakes. Sounds pretty genuine.
In a subsequent interview with Beth Rigby, a visibly upset Ms Rayner said: "I've been in shock, really, because I thought I'd done everything properly, and I relied on the advice that I received and I'm devastated because I've always upheld the rules and always have felt proud to do that.
"That it is devastating for me and the fact that the reason why those confidential clauses were in place was to protect my son, who, through no fault of his own, he's vulnerable, he's got this life changing, lifelong conditions and I don't want him or anything to do with his day-to-day life, to be subjected to that level of scrutiny."
Asked if she thought about quitting rather than disclose the details about her son, the cabinet minister added: "I spoke to my family about it. I spoke to my ex-husband, who has been an incredibly supportive person because he knows that all I've done is try and support my family and help them."
https://news.sky.com/story/angela-rayner-admits-she-should-have-paid-more-stamp- |
Who knows. I suppose she could not have been aware of the liability. Once she gave up her share of the family home she could well have thought that ended her association with it legally. Strictly speaking she did (does) only own one property. On the other hand, any financial adviser worth their salt would know that liabilities can continue if the trust of gifted to an offspring. It’s also very easy to find that out through an internet search. I find it hard to believe a bona fide advisor wouldn’t know the position. Maybe she asked her milkman for advice?
I think she’s dealt with it well, but also won’t be able to escape accusations she only acted because she’d been outed.
It’s certainly not ideal for her (if she can’t get her own housing affairs in order, how is she expected to sort out all ours, etc). Not good for the govt either. Not that there’s a shortage of other attack lines. |  |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 14:05 - Sep 3 with 973 views | DJR |
EDIT: further analysis required. [Post edited 3 Sep 14:11]
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| Another nail in the coffin on 15:18 - Sep 3 with 816 views | mutters |
| Another nail in the coffin on 11:46 - Sep 3 by SitfcB |
We all make mistakes. Sounds pretty genuine.
In a subsequent interview with Beth Rigby, a visibly upset Ms Rayner said: "I've been in shock, really, because I thought I'd done everything properly, and I relied on the advice that I received and I'm devastated because I've always upheld the rules and always have felt proud to do that.
"That it is devastating for me and the fact that the reason why those confidential clauses were in place was to protect my son, who, through no fault of his own, he's vulnerable, he's got this life changing, lifelong conditions and I don't want him or anything to do with his day-to-day life, to be subjected to that level of scrutiny."
Asked if she thought about quitting rather than disclose the details about her son, the cabinet minister added: "I spoke to my family about it. I spoke to my ex-husband, who has been an incredibly supportive person because he knows that all I've done is try and support my family and help them."
https://news.sky.com/story/angela-rayner-admits-she-should-have-paid-more-stamp- |
Of course we all make mistakes but I'd imagine a woman of her ability, her intelligence and overall position in society might have juts checked or even been interested in using one of those online calculators to see how much stamp duty you pay?
Or is she so far devolved from the running of her own finances that she genuinely didn't know? If so that's pretty damning, sounds like a Tory move to me. |  |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 17:24 - Sep 3 with 624 views | DJR |
| Another nail in the coffin on 13:46 - Sep 3 by Swansea_Blue |
Who knows. I suppose she could not have been aware of the liability. Once she gave up her share of the family home she could well have thought that ended her association with it legally. Strictly speaking she did (does) only own one property. On the other hand, any financial adviser worth their salt would know that liabilities can continue if the trust of gifted to an offspring. It’s also very easy to find that out through an internet search. I find it hard to believe a bona fide advisor wouldn’t know the position. Maybe she asked her milkman for advice?
I think she’s dealt with it well, but also won’t be able to escape accusations she only acted because she’d been outed.
It’s certainly not ideal for her (if she can’t get her own housing affairs in order, how is she expected to sort out all ours, etc). Not good for the govt either. Not that there’s a shortage of other attack lines. |
The Guardian says the trustees of the trust are Rayner, her ex-husband and the law firm Shoosmiths.
Shoosmiths is a pretty reputable and large UK law firm, and I would imagine that it set up the trust.
That being the case, it seems difficult to imagine that a firm such as that wouldn't know the law.
Maybe she used a local firm in Hove instead for the purchase which didn't have such expertise but if she wrong about the advice being wrong I imagine the solicitors firm concerned would not take this lying down.. [Post edited 3 Sep 17:26]
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| Another nail in the coffin on 17:31 - Sep 3 with 596 views | chicoazul |
| Another nail in the coffin on 13:44 - Sep 3 by CastroSito |
That she's not a tax expert and paid someone who, supposedly, was? |
I’m really glad she’s not, for instance, running the country in that case!1! | |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 18:47 - Sep 3 with 474 views | JammyDodgerrr |
I don't really have an issue with it, assuming it is in fact an error from the advisors who she would've paid, and then she clears the debt owed(which she said she will do). It sounds like a pretty complicated set up and it looks like the handling of it was done incorrectly.
Obviously if it's anything else like dodging, or she knowingly did it, then she has to resign. But given how strongly Starmer has defended her today, I suspect it's the former. [Post edited 3 Sep 18:50]
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| Another nail in the coffin on 18:57 - Sep 3 with 434 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Another nail in the coffin on 17:24 - Sep 3 by DJR |
The Guardian says the trustees of the trust are Rayner, her ex-husband and the law firm Shoosmiths.
Shoosmiths is a pretty reputable and large UK law firm, and I would imagine that it set up the trust.
That being the case, it seems difficult to imagine that a firm such as that wouldn't know the law.
Maybe she used a local firm in Hove instead for the purchase which didn't have such expertise but if she wrong about the advice being wrong I imagine the solicitors firm concerned would not take this lying down.. [Post edited 3 Sep 17:26]
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Firms, even big ones, make mistakes, especially in unusual situations. Happens all the time. | | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 19:04 - Sep 3 with 401 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Another nail in the coffin on 17:24 - Sep 3 by DJR |
The Guardian says the trustees of the trust are Rayner, her ex-husband and the law firm Shoosmiths.
Shoosmiths is a pretty reputable and large UK law firm, and I would imagine that it set up the trust.
That being the case, it seems difficult to imagine that a firm such as that wouldn't know the law.
Maybe she used a local firm in Hove instead for the purchase which didn't have such expertise but if she wrong about the advice being wrong I imagine the solicitors firm concerned would not take this lying down.. [Post edited 3 Sep 17:26]
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It’s routine wealth management stuff, so yes agreed; it’d be very surprising that this wasn’t known at the time the trust was set up. She could be innocent of tax evasion and just dopey I suppose. She doesn’t strike me as dopey though. | |
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| Another nail in the coffin on 19:06 - Sep 3 with 391 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Another nail in the coffin on 19:04 - Sep 3 by Swansea_Blue |
It’s routine wealth management stuff, so yes agreed; it’d be very surprising that this wasn’t known at the time the trust was set up. She could be innocent of tax evasion and just dopey I suppose. She doesn’t strike me as dopey though. |
I dont agree. Sounds like an unusual trust arrangement, court imposed or sanctioned, and "wealth management" people dont do conveyancing.... | | | |
| Another nail in the coffin on 19:10 - Sep 3 with 372 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Another nail in the coffin on 18:47 - Sep 3 by JammyDodgerrr |
I don't really have an issue with it, assuming it is in fact an error from the advisors who she would've paid, and then she clears the debt owed(which she said she will do). It sounds like a pretty complicated set up and it looks like the handling of it was done incorrectly.
Obviously if it's anything else like dodging, or she knowingly did it, then she has to resign. But given how strongly Starmer has defended her today, I suspect it's the former. [Post edited 3 Sep 18:50]
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