| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah 20:24 - Sep 10 with 77834 views | ElderGrizzly |
Was speaking at a University event and appears to have been shot (from distance) in the neck.
And actually shot, not the Donald Trump kind.
Horrific whatever your political views and has no place in politics
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:12 - Sep 15 with 611 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 09:19 - Sep 15 by itfcjoe |
An awful story, and shouldn't happen in any developed country but I always find the argument very bad faith about it in general, would hope not but wouldn't even be surprised if the 'gotcha' style of argument used these days is making things worse for the extremes at both ends of the debate and their real life consequences |
Sorry, it's probably obvious to others and I'm being a bit thick because I've just been woken up at six am. I don't understand your what you mean by "but I always find the argument very bad faith about it in general". What is "it" in this sentence? Is it abortion, 39 week term abortions, rape in relation to abortion, something else? |  |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:29 - Sep 15 with 563 views | itfcjoe |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:12 - Sep 15 by Kropotkin123 |
Sorry, it's probably obvious to others and I'm being a bit thick because I've just been woken up at six am. I don't understand your what you mean by "but I always find the argument very bad faith about it in general". What is "it" in this sentence? Is it abortion, 39 week term abortions, rape in relation to abortion, something else? |
Both sides of it, I feel like one side of debate gets backed into a corner of young girl being raped and having to carry to full term and the other ends up with any abortion ok up until birth when to me both sides of that are morally reprehensible* and the debate spends so long talking about such extreme positions we end up with actual talk of the massive nuance between those 2 extremes and no idea where the line should/could be drawn and why.
I just don't believe anyone talking about a 13 year old who is pregnant through rape would, in anything but a supposed hypothetical insist that they are not allowed to abort it
*I'm sure there are some situations amongst this where this isn't [i.e. if baby unviable and it likely to put mother life at risk to deliver] |  |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:34 - Sep 15 with 528 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:29 - Sep 15 by itfcjoe |
Both sides of it, I feel like one side of debate gets backed into a corner of young girl being raped and having to carry to full term and the other ends up with any abortion ok up until birth when to me both sides of that are morally reprehensible* and the debate spends so long talking about such extreme positions we end up with actual talk of the massive nuance between those 2 extremes and no idea where the line should/could be drawn and why.
I just don't believe anyone talking about a 13 year old who is pregnant through rape would, in anything but a supposed hypothetical insist that they are not allowed to abort it
*I'm sure there are some situations amongst this where this isn't [i.e. if baby unviable and it likely to put mother life at risk to deliver] |
The point here, again, is that is is kirks explicitly declared view. |  | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:37 - Sep 15 with 512 views | positivity |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:34 - Sep 15 by redrickstuhaart |
The point here, again, is that is is kirks explicitly declared view. |
except that it was apparently a 10 year old, not a 13 year old | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:38 - Sep 15 with 500 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:37 - Sep 15 by positivity |
except that it was apparently a 10 year old, not a 13 year old |
And his daughter... | | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:45 - Sep 15 with 463 views | itfcjoe |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:34 - Sep 15 by redrickstuhaart |
The point here, again, is that is is kirks explicitly declared view. |
At no doubt because he's been asked that question and ends up, because of how debate is now, in not being able to show any form of nuance - it has to be black vs white.
Kirk's views were that of an extremist, but every grifter is like that these days - and he certainly was one | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:51 - Sep 15 with 425 views | Herbivore |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:29 - Sep 15 by itfcjoe |
Both sides of it, I feel like one side of debate gets backed into a corner of young girl being raped and having to carry to full term and the other ends up with any abortion ok up until birth when to me both sides of that are morally reprehensible* and the debate spends so long talking about such extreme positions we end up with actual talk of the massive nuance between those 2 extremes and no idea where the line should/could be drawn and why.
I just don't believe anyone talking about a 13 year old who is pregnant through rape would, in anything but a supposed hypothetical insist that they are not allowed to abort it
*I'm sure there are some situations amongst this where this isn't [i.e. if baby unviable and it likely to put mother life at risk to deliver] |
Think this is a bit of false equivalence to be honest. If you are a hardliner (usually of a religious persuasion) and believe abortion is wrong in all circumstances then, however reluctantly, you have to believe that a child who has been raped must carry a baby to term. Indeed, where abortion is illegal, this is what happens. You can be pro-choice and not be in favour of terminations at 39 weeks. In fact I'd wager 99.9999999999999% of people who feel abortion should be legal don't support 39 week terminations other than in very extreme circumstances (e.g. late discovery of a horrific life limiting disability potentially). |  |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 15:45 - Sep 15 with 291 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:29 - Sep 15 by itfcjoe |
Both sides of it, I feel like one side of debate gets backed into a corner of young girl being raped and having to carry to full term and the other ends up with any abortion ok up until birth when to me both sides of that are morally reprehensible* and the debate spends so long talking about such extreme positions we end up with actual talk of the massive nuance between those 2 extremes and no idea where the line should/could be drawn and why.
I just don't believe anyone talking about a 13 year old who is pregnant through rape would, in anything but a supposed hypothetical insist that they are not allowed to abort it
*I'm sure there are some situations amongst this where this isn't [i.e. if baby unviable and it likely to put mother life at risk to deliver] |
I see some people have already replied that Charlie Kirk's stated view was that if his 10 year old daughter was raped he would insist the baby was delivered. It is not about him being backed into a position, he believes a human gets a soul at the point of conception and that soul has the right to life.
That position is widely supported amongst his evangelical base support and that support is significant. It underpins pressure on elected representatives and legal changes in the US. The movement has significant money and lobbying power behind it.
The nature of news is that extreme cases will come to the fore, as that is what makes the news interesting to people. The extreme cases happen though because this is the consequence of the laws that have been written.
These extreme cases don't just happen in the US. Famously Savita Halappanavar died in Ireland. She was 17 weeks into a pregnancy. She got an infection and was denied an abortion which would have saved her life. Thankfully in this case, it sparked a change in Irish law.
When we write things into law we create these extreme cases.
I think it is more difficult to articulate opinions than are not at the extremes on this issue.
I'm not 100% sure where the limits are myself. I do believe an unborn baby should have it's own rights at a certain stage. I also don't agree with the view that because women's carries the baby it gives her the sole right over the baby's life when there are two consenting adults and no health issues. I would have been devastated if my wife aborted our baby due to just choice after the first trimester.
With that said, I would rather start with a pro abortion legal framework and build out clauses than starting with an abortion ban and building out clauses. | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:04 - Sep 15 with 221 views | itfcjoe |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 15:45 - Sep 15 by Kropotkin123 |
I see some people have already replied that Charlie Kirk's stated view was that if his 10 year old daughter was raped he would insist the baby was delivered. It is not about him being backed into a position, he believes a human gets a soul at the point of conception and that soul has the right to life.
That position is widely supported amongst his evangelical base support and that support is significant. It underpins pressure on elected representatives and legal changes in the US. The movement has significant money and lobbying power behind it.
The nature of news is that extreme cases will come to the fore, as that is what makes the news interesting to people. The extreme cases happen though because this is the consequence of the laws that have been written.
These extreme cases don't just happen in the US. Famously Savita Halappanavar died in Ireland. She was 17 weeks into a pregnancy. She got an infection and was denied an abortion which would have saved her life. Thankfully in this case, it sparked a change in Irish law.
When we write things into law we create these extreme cases.
I think it is more difficult to articulate opinions than are not at the extremes on this issue.
I'm not 100% sure where the limits are myself. I do believe an unborn baby should have it's own rights at a certain stage. I also don't agree with the view that because women's carries the baby it gives her the sole right over the baby's life when there are two consenting adults and no health issues. I would have been devastated if my wife aborted our baby due to just choice after the first trimester.
With that said, I would rather start with a pro abortion legal framework and build out clauses than starting with an abortion ban and building out clauses. |
I definitely agree with the last part re where the starting point for legislation should be; and find these views and how mobilised and ongoing the campaigns are to be totally wrong.
It makes you realise that 'hard won right's , i.e. gay marriage in somewhere like America are not fixed forever, even when the battle is won it has to continue being fought and must be draining.
I think maybe because my world view is so far away from this dogmatic fundamentalist religious one, I just underestimate it to an extent because it just seems so mental how much people care about things that don't affect them in any way | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:14 - Sep 15 with 162 views | Libero |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:45 - Sep 15 by itfcjoe |
At no doubt because he's been asked that question and ends up, because of how debate is now, in not being able to show any form of nuance - it has to be black vs white.
Kirk's views were that of an extremist, but every grifter is like that these days - and he certainly was one |
In fairness, Joe - he was asked that question at one of his own events, where he sets the rules and tone.
It’s the kind of divisive situation Kirk repeatedly engineered and going to colleges where people’s frontal lobes haven’t fully developed yet was seemingly also a tactic of his to get the kind of reactions he wanted to then spread his ‘message’
It’s because of grifters like Kirk and the rise of social media that, that is ‘how debate is’ often. |  | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:26 - Sep 15 with 87 views | itfcjoe |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:14 - Sep 15 by Libero |
In fairness, Joe - he was asked that question at one of his own events, where he sets the rules and tone.
It’s the kind of divisive situation Kirk repeatedly engineered and going to colleges where people’s frontal lobes haven’t fully developed yet was seemingly also a tactic of his to get the kind of reactions he wanted to then spread his ‘message’
It’s because of grifters like Kirk and the rise of social media that, that is ‘how debate is’ often. |
Yeh I get that he has said it, guess it's just how people would actually be when push comes to shove.
Bit like the Gore Vidal quote about homosexuality, the further extreme the viewpoint, the more likely they are to be a total hypocrite in their own life anyway
I read a really good piece earlier, which mentioned about him being a 'great debater'
‘If your definition of a debater is somebody who is 10-plus years older than the people he is debating, spends hours and hours a day coming up with arguments for his belief system, who goes to communities of much younger people, finds topics in which he is a great expert and a great debater on, brings them into the fold to discuss these topics, then uses what they say on videos that his organisation edits, and puts them online to mock his opponents and the views of his opponents, then [Kirk’s] a good debater.’ | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:30 - Sep 15 with 67 views | positivity |
not if they're anti-abortionists who "believe... a human gets a soul at the point of conception and that soul has the right to life" | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:36 - Sep 15 with 35 views | lowhouseblue |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:14 - Sep 15 by Libero |
In fairness, Joe - he was asked that question at one of his own events, where he sets the rules and tone.
It’s the kind of divisive situation Kirk repeatedly engineered and going to colleges where people’s frontal lobes haven’t fully developed yet was seemingly also a tactic of his to get the kind of reactions he wanted to then spread his ‘message’
It’s because of grifters like Kirk and the rise of social media that, that is ‘how debate is’ often. |
"going to colleges where people’s frontal lobes haven’t fully developed yet was seemingly also a tactic of his to get the kind of reactions he wanted"
'people's frontal lobes haven't fully developed?
while that is of course true up to about 25 - what implication are you trying to draw? it's a question because your statement appears bizzare. if it's inappropriate to expose college students to the views of someone like kirk because they lack the higher cognitive functions to respond, then what other views do they lack the higher cognitive functions to process? does the syllabus need to be censored to protect them? what about left wing views are they also to be censored because students can't process them? should they be protected from all politics because they lack the higher cognitive functions required, or is it just politics you disagree with? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:40 - Sep 15 with 15 views | lowhouseblue |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:26 - Sep 15 by itfcjoe |
Yeh I get that he has said it, guess it's just how people would actually be when push comes to shove.
Bit like the Gore Vidal quote about homosexuality, the further extreme the viewpoint, the more likely they are to be a total hypocrite in their own life anyway
I read a really good piece earlier, which mentioned about him being a 'great debater'
‘If your definition of a debater is somebody who is 10-plus years older than the people he is debating, spends hours and hours a day coming up with arguments for his belief system, who goes to communities of much younger people, finds topics in which he is a great expert and a great debater on, brings them into the fold to discuss these topics, then uses what they say on videos that his organisation edits, and puts them online to mock his opponents and the views of his opponents, then [Kirk’s] a good debater.’ |
apart from the final 2 lines that pretty much describes every academic. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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