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First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:30 - Sep 18 by redrickstuhaart
The uni was fined for limiting free speech? They key here being that in one place the state intervenes to ensure free speech. In the other, the state intervenes to the opposite effect.
Not remotely comparable.
Go and have a look at what Kimmel actually did and said. Nothing disrespectful about Kirk at all (though that would plainly be permitted under the constitution in any event). Rather he played a clip of Trumps response to being asked how he was holding up following Kirk's death- to which he excitedly talked about his new ballroom.
Criticism is being criminalised.
[Post edited 18 Sep 17:32]
exactly this - he was critical but his words were careful and could easily be defended.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:46 - Sep 18 with 2216 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 09:59 - Sep 18 by Guthrum
The US system has very limited avenues to do anything about it. If one faction has control of all branches of the government and the Supreme Court, however marginal or contrived, all checks and balances are out of the window. The Founding Father do not seem to have thought of this - as Enlightenment thinkers educated in the Classics, they ought to have known better (just look at the fall of the Roman Republic).
A vote of no confidence in the President does not exist as a mechanism, or has no practical effect, even if it could be got through a partisan Congress. Illness or criminal activity are the only ways of removing the incumbent - and the judges of that are his own supporters in the House.
Street protests have no practical effect and, in any case, the effectively binary political setup ensures that pretty much half the population will support whoever is in power. This doubly so with someone who does not care what those not backing him think (indeed revels in their discomfiture) and takes an imaginary view of the balance of public opinion.
Presumably that why pressure builds and then they have a collective crisis (the Civil War, unrest during suffrage in 1920s, unrest and gangster trade related to prohibition in 20s/30s, civil rights unrest in the 60s). Each of these ultimately lead to/forced new constitutional amendments. It seems we’re some way off another crisis, but if ever an administration is going to create one it will be this one.
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:30 - Sep 18 by redrickstuhaart
The uni was fined for limiting free speech? They key here being that in one place the state intervenes to ensure free speech. In the other, the state intervenes to the opposite effect.
Not remotely comparable.
Go and have a look at what Kimmel actually did and said. Nothing disrespectful about Kirk at all (though that would plainly be permitted under the constitution in any event). Rather he played a clip of Trumps response to being asked how he was holding up following Kirk's death- to which he excitedly talked about his new ballroom.
Criticism is being criminalised.
[Post edited 18 Sep 17:32]
I’m not talking about the UK Govt vs US Govt; I’m talking about cultural institutions from the left here and how things have been over last few years etc vs how now the right will be and are fighting back with the power of the press behind him
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 18:11 - Sep 18 by itfcjoe
I’m not talking about the UK Govt vs US Govt; I’m talking about cultural institutions from the left here and how things have been over last few years etc vs how now the right will be and are fighting back with the power of the press behind him
Its not remotely comparable.
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First Colbert … now Kimmel on 07:35 - Sep 19 with 1525 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 16:43 - Sep 18 by lowhouseblue
i think you're right that what is happening now in the US is different in scale and character. when the state gets involved in seeking to censor and punish speech and views which it disagrees with it is quite a different issue. it has a more frightening feel. a lot of what trump is doing is yet to be tested in court - and a lot of it is a second round effect where companies and institutions fear punishment and therefore self-censor.
but the issue in the uk shouldn't be underestimated - even though different. we have had a form on institutional narrowing whereby in key cultural institutions - universities, the arts sector, the not-profit sector, state agencies - only one political view on key cultural issues it acceptable. there is a narrowing of what views are tolerated and as a result a huge degree of self-censorship. people avoid controversial issues and if they have views that differ from the orthodoxy they keep silent. there have been many cases where such institutional narrowing has resulted n discriminatory behaviour by institutions which has been successfully challenged in the courts and in tribunals. my career has been spent in one of the types of institutions listed above and through practical experience i know this to be true.
That's certainly one way of looking at it, although there are others.
All of the organisations you mention seem to me to be both welcoming to and attractive to people from diverse backgrounds, and I, for one, think that is a good thing. In contrast, for example, professional football in the UK has never had any player brave enough to "come out". I imagine much the same is true of those who work in, say, the various trades.
I have experience as a City lawyer and as a lawyer in Whitehall and the contrast couldn't have been greater. As a City lawyer to be gay or to express socialist views would have been a death knell to one's prospects not least because of the attitude of clients. In contrast, the civil service was a place where people of all sorts were welcome and thrived, although people kept their political opinions to themselves. To take one example, the civil service was ahead of the game when it came to part-time working which meant that many very talented female lawyers could job share, something that they just couldn't do in the City.
The concern I have is that there is now a backlash generally, and especially in the private sector, against diversity, so any progress that might have been made is rolled back.
[Post edited 19 Sep 8:55]
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First Colbert … now Kimmel on 09:11 - Sep 19 with 1302 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 07:35 - Sep 19 by DJR
That's certainly one way of looking at it, although there are others.
All of the organisations you mention seem to me to be both welcoming to and attractive to people from diverse backgrounds, and I, for one, think that is a good thing. In contrast, for example, professional football in the UK has never had any player brave enough to "come out". I imagine much the same is true of those who work in, say, the various trades.
I have experience as a City lawyer and as a lawyer in Whitehall and the contrast couldn't have been greater. As a City lawyer to be gay or to express socialist views would have been a death knell to one's prospects not least because of the attitude of clients. In contrast, the civil service was a place where people of all sorts were welcome and thrived, although people kept their political opinions to themselves. To take one example, the civil service was ahead of the game when it came to part-time working which meant that many very talented female lawyers could job share, something that they just couldn't do in the City.
The concern I have is that there is now a backlash generally, and especially in the private sector, against diversity, so any progress that might have been made is rolled back.
[Post edited 19 Sep 8:55]
"both welcoming to and attractive to people from diverse backgrounds"
i agree with that and it is good that people from diverse backgrounds are welcomed. but diversity also includes diversity of opinion. what these institutions no longer foster is diversity of opinion. they have become narrow in terms of the opinions they express and tolerate. many have become institutionally intolerant of beliefs which diverge from their current orthodoxy. and a string of discrimination claims have proved that to be the case.
"people kept their political opinions to themselves". exactly that, people self-censor out of fear of repercussions. when institutions are adopting policies which are inherently political and staff are too afraid to speak out that is very unhealthy. in academia staff self-censoring narrows debate and discussion and to leads poor research. elsewhere, the sandi peggie case has yet to be concluded - the degree of bias and intolerance and closed-mindedness alleged against nhs administrators is shocking - it suggests a very unhealthy culture which wouldn't exist if staff felt free to express their views openly. i don't know of one management theory that says having staff who are afraid to speak is a good thing.
[Post edited 19 Sep 9:13]
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-1
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 09:23 - Sep 19 with 1274 views
Siri, is this state interference in media motivated by an ultranationalist, authoritarian political philosophy, that combines elements of nationalism, militarism, economic self-sufficiency, and totalitarianism?
Because the TWTD right wing inteligensia told me I was "making it up" lol.
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First Colbert … now Kimmel on 09:57 - Sep 19 with 1192 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 09:11 - Sep 19 by lowhouseblue
"both welcoming to and attractive to people from diverse backgrounds"
i agree with that and it is good that people from diverse backgrounds are welcomed. but diversity also includes diversity of opinion. what these institutions no longer foster is diversity of opinion. they have become narrow in terms of the opinions they express and tolerate. many have become institutionally intolerant of beliefs which diverge from their current orthodoxy. and a string of discrimination claims have proved that to be the case.
"people kept their political opinions to themselves". exactly that, people self-censor out of fear of repercussions. when institutions are adopting policies which are inherently political and staff are too afraid to speak out that is very unhealthy. in academia staff self-censoring narrows debate and discussion and to leads poor research. elsewhere, the sandi peggie case has yet to be concluded - the degree of bias and intolerance and closed-mindedness alleged against nhs administrators is shocking - it suggests a very unhealthy culture which wouldn't exist if staff felt free to express their views openly. i don't know of one management theory that says having staff who are afraid to speak is a good thing.
[Post edited 19 Sep 9:13]
A few observations.
1. My point about people keeping their views to themselves was not self-censorship in the sense you suggest but but instead what, when I worked, seemed to be the prevailing idea that one didn't talk about politics at work.
2. It is clear that the trans debate has given rise to issues because of the interaction between competing rights but leaving that aside are you saying, for example, that academic freedom has been curtailed in the way you suggest outside that area? And are there as many cases as you suggest whether in that arena or elsewhere?
3. If you regard something like personal pronouns as part of the problem, I might add that they have been used in the Cabinet Office and I am not aware of people I know objecting to their use. Indeed, Billy Bragg even changed the lyrics of Sexuality from: “Just because you’re gay, I won’t turn you away / If you stick around, I’m sure that we can find some common ground” to “Just because you’re they, I won’t turn you away / If you stick around, I’m sure that we can find the right pronoun”.
EDIT: No point in wasting an opportunity to post a video of what is a cracking song featuring Kirsty McColl.
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 09:23 - Sep 19 by Libero
Siri, is this state interference in media motivated by an ultranationalist, authoritarian political philosophy, that combines elements of nationalism, militarism, economic self-sufficiency, and totalitarianism?
Because the TWTD right wing inteligensia told me I was "making it up" lol.
I've never heard 'right wing' and 'intelligentsia' used together before.
1
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 14:36 - Sep 19 with 657 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 09:57 - Sep 19 by DJR
A few observations.
1. My point about people keeping their views to themselves was not self-censorship in the sense you suggest but but instead what, when I worked, seemed to be the prevailing idea that one didn't talk about politics at work.
2. It is clear that the trans debate has given rise to issues because of the interaction between competing rights but leaving that aside are you saying, for example, that academic freedom has been curtailed in the way you suggest outside that area? And are there as many cases as you suggest whether in that arena or elsewhere?
3. If you regard something like personal pronouns as part of the problem, I might add that they have been used in the Cabinet Office and I am not aware of people I know objecting to their use. Indeed, Billy Bragg even changed the lyrics of Sexuality from: “Just because you’re gay, I won’t turn you away / If you stick around, I’m sure that we can find some common ground” to “Just because you’re they, I won’t turn you away / If you stick around, I’m sure that we can find the right pronoun”.
EDIT: No point in wasting an opportunity to post a video of what is a cracking song featuring Kirsty McColl.
[Post edited 19 Sep 10:34]
i don't have an issue with pronouns - i would always try to use what people want out of politeness. if there was an issue with pronouns it was people a few years ago adding a footer to their emails - which almost without exception meant that their employer had arranged training by stonewall.
in terms of your point 1 that's sort of the problem. we moved from a situation where politics belonged outside work and wasn't discussed with colleagues, to one in which employers were taking strong one sided political stances and bringing in fairly extreme groups like stonewall. that brought politics into many work places in a very one-sided and intolerant way.
in terms of 2 - yes it has had a much wider effect. in terms of student welfare and institutional policies a one sided political view has been adopted with complete intolerance to those who disagree. people who disagree have tried to keep quiet as a rule. across a whole range of social science / arts subjects there are now topics which are as good as untouchable if you want to have a pleasant life. but it may be changing very slowly now.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-1
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 15:42 - Sep 19 with 569 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 14:36 - Sep 19 by lowhouseblue
i don't have an issue with pronouns - i would always try to use what people want out of politeness. if there was an issue with pronouns it was people a few years ago adding a footer to their emails - which almost without exception meant that their employer had arranged training by stonewall.
in terms of your point 1 that's sort of the problem. we moved from a situation where politics belonged outside work and wasn't discussed with colleagues, to one in which employers were taking strong one sided political stances and bringing in fairly extreme groups like stonewall. that brought politics into many work places in a very one-sided and intolerant way.
in terms of 2 - yes it has had a much wider effect. in terms of student welfare and institutional policies a one sided political view has been adopted with complete intolerance to those who disagree. people who disagree have tried to keep quiet as a rule. across a whole range of social science / arts subjects there are now topics which are as good as untouchable if you want to have a pleasant life. but it may be changing very slowly now.
We could obviously carry on this discussion for ages but it is interesting to see that you refer to Stonewall in two paragraphs.
As regards student welfare, my son is currently in his fourth year at university and he and all the people he knows must live in a different world to the one you suggest exists. Nor is there any evidence in the art-based subjects that he is studying that there are any topics which are off-limit.
[Post edited 19 Sep 15:52]
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First Colbert … now Kimmel on 15:51 - Sep 19 with 539 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 15:42 - Sep 19 by DJR
We could obviously carry on this discussion for ages but it is interesting to see that you refer to Stonewall in two paragraphs.
As regards student welfare, my son is currently in his fourth year at university and he and all the people he knows must live in a different world to the one you suggest exists. Nor is there any evidence in the art-based subjects that he is studying that there are any topics which are off-limit.
[Post edited 19 Sep 15:52]
you raised the trans debate - in terms of understanding what has happened in many public institutions stonewall are key part of the story.
very good that your son has avoided all of this.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-1
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 15:54 - Sep 19 with 527 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 15:54 - Sep 19 by DJR
I asked for examples outside the trans debate but you didn't give any.
[Post edited 19 Sep 15:57]
sorry, i missed that. i guess the other areas in which diversity of opinion has been crushed is any thing to do with expressions of critical race theory (again that has a widespread impact across the social sciences), you'd also be a very brave person now to question the dominant narrative on israel, to oppose bds, to support investment in the arms industry, and any debate on immigration is an absolute no no. diversity of opinion now is often expressed as coerced silence on one side.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-1
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 16:51 - Sep 19 with 378 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 14:36 - Sep 19 by lowhouseblue
i don't have an issue with pronouns - i would always try to use what people want out of politeness. if there was an issue with pronouns it was people a few years ago adding a footer to their emails - which almost without exception meant that their employer had arranged training by stonewall.
in terms of your point 1 that's sort of the problem. we moved from a situation where politics belonged outside work and wasn't discussed with colleagues, to one in which employers were taking strong one sided political stances and bringing in fairly extreme groups like stonewall. that brought politics into many work places in a very one-sided and intolerant way.
in terms of 2 - yes it has had a much wider effect. in terms of student welfare and institutional policies a one sided political view has been adopted with complete intolerance to those who disagree. people who disagree have tried to keep quiet as a rule. across a whole range of social science / arts subjects there are now topics which are as good as untouchable if you want to have a pleasant life. but it may be changing very slowly now.
Why on earth was the pronouns in signatures an issue? Many people at the council I worked at used them - not because we'd had any training from Stonewall, but because we saw other people using them and thought it was a good idea. As a senior manager, I included it in mine to demonstrate inclusivity. It was also very useful in a highly multicultural setting as we had many colleagues with non-English names that it was hard to determine their gender by.
I think another point that is being overlooked is that public sector bodies (including universities) have a legal duty on equalities. These bodies had to take a side.
2
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:04 - Sep 19 with 329 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 16:51 - Sep 19 by Clapham_Junction
Why on earth was the pronouns in signatures an issue? Many people at the council I worked at used them - not because we'd had any training from Stonewall, but because we saw other people using them and thought it was a good idea. As a senior manager, I included it in mine to demonstrate inclusivity. It was also very useful in a highly multicultural setting as we had many colleagues with non-English names that it was hard to determine their gender by.
I think another point that is being overlooked is that public sector bodies (including universities) have a legal duty on equalities. These bodies had to take a side.
the legal equality duty is very important, but it extends to all protected characteristics including belief. many institutions have ignored that element. they didn't need to take a side, and indeed they have strict duties to remain neutral and administer processes fairly, when is comes to a conflict between different sets of rights.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
0
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:15 - Sep 19 with 300 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 14:36 - Sep 19 by lowhouseblue
i don't have an issue with pronouns - i would always try to use what people want out of politeness. if there was an issue with pronouns it was people a few years ago adding a footer to their emails - which almost without exception meant that their employer had arranged training by stonewall.
in terms of your point 1 that's sort of the problem. we moved from a situation where politics belonged outside work and wasn't discussed with colleagues, to one in which employers were taking strong one sided political stances and bringing in fairly extreme groups like stonewall. that brought politics into many work places in a very one-sided and intolerant way.
in terms of 2 - yes it has had a much wider effect. in terms of student welfare and institutional policies a one sided political view has been adopted with complete intolerance to those who disagree. people who disagree have tried to keep quiet as a rule. across a whole range of social science / arts subjects there are now topics which are as good as untouchable if you want to have a pleasant life. but it may be changing very slowly now.
Was gonna let you get on with it. But you do make a lot of unsubstantiated claims as if they are fact - as if all universities are in turmoil and the email signature thing really is nonsense. My organisation has it and there was no such training. For someone so pedantic to the point of obsession about Doller's degree contents to causally lob in opinions as fact is hypocritical really. And no this is no a gang or tribe or any other such thing - just me
2
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:27 - Sep 19 with 256 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:15 - Sep 19 by reusersfreekicks
Was gonna let you get on with it. But you do make a lot of unsubstantiated claims as if they are fact - as if all universities are in turmoil and the email signature thing really is nonsense. My organisation has it and there was no such training. For someone so pedantic to the point of obsession about Doller's degree contents to causally lob in opinions as fact is hypocritical really. And no this is no a gang or tribe or any other such thing - just me
yes we can disagree about email footers - i don't really have a strong view but in my experience it is usually organisations who have a particular sort of training. your experience is clearly different. fine.
but why does it have to be followed by personal put downs and jibes? really, what's the point?
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-1
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:30 - Sep 19 with 249 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:27 - Sep 19 by lowhouseblue
yes we can disagree about email footers - i don't really have a strong view but in my experience it is usually organisations who have a particular sort of training. your experience is clearly different. fine.
but why does it have to be followed by personal put downs and jibes? really, what's the point?
Let's leave it there
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First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:41 - Sep 19 with 206 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 16:11 - Sep 19 by lowhouseblue
sorry, i missed that. i guess the other areas in which diversity of opinion has been crushed is any thing to do with expressions of critical race theory (again that has a widespread impact across the social sciences), you'd also be a very brave person now to question the dominant narrative on israel, to oppose bds, to support investment in the arms industry, and any debate on immigration is an absolute no no. diversity of opinion now is often expressed as coerced silence on one side.
I can only assume from what you have been saying is thar you are an academic, and that this is the angle you are coming from.
I must admit I don't really know what critical race theory is. It appears to emanate from the US and is something that Republicans want to ban.
Is it something that is taught widely in universities in this country, and are you saying academic criticism of the theory doesn't take place?
Going on to Israel and the BDS (and I am not sure to what extent that is an academic subject), I imagine the prevailing view in universities is pro-Palestinian not least because I imagine there are many Muslim students. If that leads to antisemitism, it is to be condemned but I can't imagine Jewish organisations in universities taking it lying down. In any event, support in universities for Palestine has been more than counter-balanced for a long time by establishment and media support for Israel, which admittedly in some quarters is these days wearing thin.
As regards immigration, are you saying that there is no academic criticism or analysis of immigration? As regards the issue more widely, it is no surprise that universities and their students don't have discussions on immigration given the reliance of universities on overseas students.
Finally, if you think there is an issue with academic freedom, do you think the Office of Students is doing or will do the trick?
Finally, I will be heading off to Blackburn in the not-to-distant future, so if you do respond, I may not get back to you until Sunday at the earliest.
[Post edited 19 Sep 17:55]
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First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:45 - Sep 19 with 182 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:41 - Sep 19 by DJR
I can only assume from what you have been saying is thar you are an academic, and that this is the angle you are coming from.
I must admit I don't really know what critical race theory is. It appears to emanate from the US and is something that Republicans want to ban.
Is it something that is taught widely in universities in this country, and are you saying academic criticism of the theory doesn't take place?
Going on to Israel and the BDS (and I am not sure to what extent that is an academic subject), I imagine the prevailing view in universities is pro-Palestinian not least because I imagine there are many Muslim students. If that leads to antisemitism, it is to be condemned but I can't imagine Jewish organisations in universities taking it lying down. In any event, support in universities for Palestine has been more than counter-balanced for a long time by establishment and media support for Israel, which admittedly in some quarters is these days wearing thin.
As regards immigration, are you saying that there is no academic criticism or analysis of immigration? As regards the issue more widely, it is no surprise that universities and their students don't have discussions on immigration given the reliance of universities on overseas students.
Finally, if you think there is an issue with academic freedom, do you think the Office of Students is doing or will do the trick?
Finally, I will be heading off to Blackburn in the not-to-distant future, so if you do respond, I may not get back to you until Sunday at the earliest.
[Post edited 19 Sep 17:55]
this is a good article which reflects my experience. but i'm heading off out and must go.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
0
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:56 - Sep 19 with 150 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 17:04 - Sep 19 by lowhouseblue
the legal equality duty is very important, but it extends to all protected characteristics including belief. many institutions have ignored that element. they didn't need to take a side, and indeed they have strict duties to remain neutral and administer processes fairly, when is comes to a conflict between different sets of rights.
If someone's beliefs are discriminatory, IMO they do need to (and would be right to) take a side. The council I worked for disciplined someone for refusing to register civil partnerships (which she didn't want to because of her religious beliefs). She took it all the way the ECHR and lost.
This goes back to the tolerating intolerance paradox.
[Post edited 19 Sep 20:07]
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First Colbert … now Kimmel on 20:16 - Sep 19 with 0 views
First Colbert … now Kimmel on 12:30 - Sep 18 by Whos_blue
Yes. But sometimes you have to dance with the devil. I think KCs words at the state banquet were very carefully crafted.
The level of engagement by Charles is instructive, I think. Like him or not, he is possibly the most left leaning monarch we’ve ever had. Certain, his attitude towards climate change is diametrically opposed to Trump’s. And yet he has been willing to cast himself as toady in chief throughout the trip. Because he realises we are so isolated post-Brexit that we have little choice.
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