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The Tories are dead aren't they? on 14:25 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
that is misrepresenting and distorting what he actually said though. you are just ascribing to him a narrative which is entirely your own creation. attacking an argument you have invented and which is different from the one he made is known as straw manning. the version in your imagination may be very clearly racist but it's not what he said.
“But the other thing I noticed there was that it was one of the worst integrated places I’ve ever been to. In fact, in the hour and a half I was filming news there I didn’t see another white face”
Explain, using small words, sentences and paragraphs, how Robert Jenrick knows that the people he saw hadn’t integrated. And please use the standard you just set. Just use the the facts that Jenrick used to explain his conclusion.
2
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 14:38 - Oct 8 with 938 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 14:25 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
that is misrepresenting and distorting what he actually said though. you are just ascribing to him a narrative which is entirely your own creation. attacking an argument you have invented and which is different from the one he made is known as straw manning. the version in your imagination may be very clearly racist but it's not what he said.
What is Jenrick's point then? Can a community only be integrated if you see a white face? If so, why? If not, why did he bring race in to it?
1
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 14:40 - Oct 8 with 931 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 14:25 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
that is misrepresenting and distorting what he actually said though. you are just ascribing to him a narrative which is entirely your own creation. attacking an argument you have invented and which is different from the one he made is known as straw manning. the version in your imagination may be very clearly racist but it's not what he said.
Surely you cannot deny that using terms such as slum and ghetto when also referring to a population that is entirely non white, all his words, will be parroted by the people that this type of rhetoric is aimed at?
It doesn't take much to join the dots does it and it is extremely distasteful. He knows exactly what he's doing and I would have thought someone as intelligent as you would also.
I really don't understand why you have become so contrary these past years other than to provoke a repetitive argument which you will call a debate that you will then claim to be right.
UTT
2
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 14:43 - Oct 8 with 911 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 14:25 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
that is misrepresenting and distorting what he actually said though. you are just ascribing to him a narrative which is entirely your own creation. attacking an argument you have invented and which is different from the one he made is known as straw manning. the version in your imagination may be very clearly racist but it's not what he said.
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 14:43 - Oct 8 by Herbivore
Shill away, amigo.
and you keep on with the disingenuous misrepresentation. plus ca change.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-4
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:16 - Oct 8 with 806 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 14:40 - Oct 8 by buoyant
Surely you cannot deny that using terms such as slum and ghetto when also referring to a population that is entirely non white, all his words, will be parroted by the people that this type of rhetoric is aimed at?
It doesn't take much to join the dots does it and it is extremely distasteful. He knows exactly what he's doing and I would have thought someone as intelligent as you would also.
I really don't understand why you have become so contrary these past years other than to provoke a repetitive argument which you will call a debate that you will then claim to be right.
slum i don't like. but ghetto historically has always been used to refer to a part of a city in which members of a minority group are concentrated. i think herbivore's version of what jenrick said wasn't joining the dots but inventing stuff.
in terms of your final line - i'll post what i honestly think, thanks. if i think people are posting nonsense it really is ok for me to say so. what you label 'contrary' is actually very main stream and it's very strange that some people seem shocked to hear it.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-4
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:21 - Oct 8 with 778 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:16 - Oct 8 by Herbivore
I think you've just permanently ended the production of irony meters with that one, pal.
but fortunately i've kept my bull sh1t meter just for your posts.
[Post edited 8 Oct 15:21]
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:18 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
slum i don't like. but ghetto historically has always been used to refer to a part of a city in which members of a minority group are concentrated. i think herbivore's version of what jenrick said wasn't joining the dots but inventing stuff.
in terms of your final line - i'll post what i honestly think, thanks. if i think people are posting nonsense it really is ok for me to say so. what you label 'contrary' is actually very main stream and it's very strange that some people seem shocked to hear it.
I disagree. I think you are wrong.
UTT
1
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:41 - Oct 8 with 725 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:18 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
slum i don't like. but ghetto historically has always been used to refer to a part of a city in which members of a minority group are concentrated. i think herbivore's version of what jenrick said wasn't joining the dots but inventing stuff.
in terms of your final line - i'll post what i honestly think, thanks. if i think people are posting nonsense it really is ok for me to say so. what you label 'contrary' is actually very main stream and it's very strange that some people seem shocked to hear it.
What do you honestly think about what Jenrick said, then? If he wasn't being racist then why did he bring race in to it, in your opinion?
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The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:45 - Oct 8 with 720 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:18 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
slum i don't like. but ghetto historically has always been used to refer to a part of a city in which members of a minority group are concentrated. i think herbivore's version of what jenrick said wasn't joining the dots but inventing stuff.
in terms of your final line - i'll post what i honestly think, thanks. if i think people are posting nonsense it really is ok for me to say so. what you label 'contrary' is actually very main stream and it's very strange that some people seem shocked to hear it.
Which minority group? To quote from Stephen Bush's excellent FT newsletter this morning:
"The vast majority of people in Handsworth are not white. The largest group are British Pakistanis, at 25.1 per cent of the population. The next largest are British Indians, at 23.1 per cent. About 10.2 per cent are British Bangladeshis. White British people make up 8.7 per cent of the ward. Then black British Caribbean people at 8.2 per cent and black British Africans at 7.8 per cent. Bringing up the rear are the “mixed” group who make up 3.4 per cent of the ward and Chinese people (0.4 per cent).
"A British Pakistani person living side by side with a British Indian person is an example of integration. That is the British model working! And as much as the likes of Jenrick often seem to believe that those of us in the “mixed” group are the result of pathogenesis, I can confirm that our existence runs through at least one act of integration, in the main."
In the case of Handsworth, there are several ethnic groups (including whites), so how can Jenrick know from such a short visit that they are not integrated?
The former mayor of the West Midlands certainly thinks they are.
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The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:59 - Oct 8 with 678 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:22 - Oct 7 by Radlett_blue
Well, it's easy to criticise the Tories because they were in power for 14 years & didn't do a good job. And the result (driven also by uncontrolled immigration) is the rise of Reform. This must be far less palatable to most reasonable people. T As with the rise of Trump, it's more sensible to ask why large proportions of both the USA & much of Europe are now supporting populists/extremists. I think it's largely because the life of Mr Average has become worse & that is likely to continue to do so, given low economic growth & poor demographics. And at a time when the top few percent (in USA more so, but also in Britain) are getting even richer.
If the Tories are dead then also, at the moment, are Labour.
If there was to be an election tomorrow the Conservatives and Reform would do a deal and Keir Starmer's party would be wiped out.
It is in both of their hands to beat Reform.
All they have to do is to go with the will of the voters. What do they want ? It is called democracy.
Unfortunately for the blues and the reds neither seem likely to do that at the moment. Luckily for them both they have 40 odd months to sort themselves out.
-2
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 16:51 - Oct 8 with 592 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:41 - Oct 8 by Blueschev
What do you honestly think about what Jenrick said, then? If he wasn't being racist then why did he bring race in to it, in your opinion?
the original jenrick quote in full seems to be:
"I went to Handsworth in Birmingham the other day to do a video on litter and it was absolutely appalling. It's as close as I've come to a slum in this country. But the other thing I noticed there was that it was one of the worst integrated places I've ever been to. In fact, in the hour-and-a-half I was filming news there, I didn't see another white face. That's not the kind of country I want to live in. I want to live in a country where people are properly integrated. It's not about the colour of your skin or your faith, of course it isn't, but I want people to be living alongside each other, not parallel lives. That's not the right way we want to live as a country."
i don't know handsworth. 'slum' would take some justifying - but he seems to have been there during the bin strike. it's entirely legitimate to raise the issue of integration - but integration is more complex than that and it doesn't imply having a nationally representative mix of ethnicities in every ward. even if the number of white residents is low that doesn't mean the ward isn't ethnically mixed. so there's a legitimate discussion about how we achieve integration, but i'm not sure the example he has chosen says what he thinks it does.
what concerns me more is that handsworth is in a constituency with an mp who was promoted by group campaigning on purely religious lines. i think that is unhealthy and does conflict with social cohesion and integration.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
1
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 16:52 - Oct 8 with 601 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:59 - Oct 8 by flykickingbybgunn
If the Tories are dead then also, at the moment, are Labour.
If there was to be an election tomorrow the Conservatives and Reform would do a deal and Keir Starmer's party would be wiped out.
It is in both of their hands to beat Reform.
All they have to do is to go with the will of the voters. What do they want ? It is called democracy.
Unfortunately for the blues and the reds neither seem likely to do that at the moment. Luckily for them both they have 40 odd months to sort themselves out.
Well, opinion polls when we are nowhere near a General Election are often very anti-government, as are by-elections & local elections. Governments usually have to do unpopular things early on in their term & people want to protest. While the polls might ask "if there was a general election tomorrow, how would you vote" but that's clearly hypothetical. According to the polls, Labour is going to get only 20% of the vote, down from 35% at the GE. while the Tories are going to poll in the high teens. Reform looks the big winner, with support of 30-35%. However, the Greens are also polling favourably, which indicates to me how much of this is b/s & protest. However, this does look like being the least predictable GE ever, particularly given that a party needs concentrated support to win seats under FPTP. I'm sure some of the Labour support will return, given the lack of alternatives, while support for Reform & the Greens will fall. It's the Tories who are in danger of being wiped out, especially through the right wing vote being split with Reform. I'm sure some senior Tories are considering a pact or merger with Reform, but that would be unpalatable to plenty of moderate Conservatives.
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 16:51 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
the original jenrick quote in full seems to be:
"I went to Handsworth in Birmingham the other day to do a video on litter and it was absolutely appalling. It's as close as I've come to a slum in this country. But the other thing I noticed there was that it was one of the worst integrated places I've ever been to. In fact, in the hour-and-a-half I was filming news there, I didn't see another white face. That's not the kind of country I want to live in. I want to live in a country where people are properly integrated. It's not about the colour of your skin or your faith, of course it isn't, but I want people to be living alongside each other, not parallel lives. That's not the right way we want to live as a country."
i don't know handsworth. 'slum' would take some justifying - but he seems to have been there during the bin strike. it's entirely legitimate to raise the issue of integration - but integration is more complex than that and it doesn't imply having a nationally representative mix of ethnicities in every ward. even if the number of white residents is low that doesn't mean the ward isn't ethnically mixed. so there's a legitimate discussion about how we achieve integration, but i'm not sure the example he has chosen says what he thinks it does.
what concerns me more is that handsworth is in a constituency with an mp who was promoted by group campaigning on purely religious lines. i think that is unhealthy and does conflict with social cohesion and integration.
So let’s see if you can get there.
When someone reaches a conclusion on a group of people, based on none of them being white, thats racist isn’t it?
1
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 18:17 - Oct 8 with 492 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 18:10 - Oct 8 by eireblue
So let’s see if you can get there.
When someone reaches a conclusion on a group of people, based on none of them being white, thats racist isn’t it?
discussing social integration and valuing social integration isn't racist. but i'll leave you there cos you've obviously got a label and you're determined to use it.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-7
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 18:22 - Oct 8 with 473 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 18:17 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
discussing social integration and valuing social integration isn't racist. but i'll leave you there cos you've obviously got a label and you're determined to use it.
His observation was that he didn't see another white person and concluded that this was why he was concerned about lack of integration in that community.
He didn't draw that conclusion when he last went out in his predominantly white populated constituency.
That's why it's clear that his comments were indeed racist.
UTT
3
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 18:37 - Oct 8 with 445 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 18:17 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue
discussing social integration and valuing social integration isn't racist. but i'll leave you there cos you've obviously got a label and you're determined to use it.
Nobody said it was, and I didn’t say it was.
I haven’t got a label, but I have experience of racists.
I didn’t ask you about social integration.
Now back to my question.
Robert Jenrick came to the conclusion that the people he saw during 90 minutes were not integrated simply based on them being non-white.
That is racist isn’t it?
Why are you avoiding a simple question?
2
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 18:57 - Oct 9 with 287 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 16:52 - Oct 8 by Radlett_blue
Well, opinion polls when we are nowhere near a General Election are often very anti-government, as are by-elections & local elections. Governments usually have to do unpopular things early on in their term & people want to protest. While the polls might ask "if there was a general election tomorrow, how would you vote" but that's clearly hypothetical. According to the polls, Labour is going to get only 20% of the vote, down from 35% at the GE. while the Tories are going to poll in the high teens. Reform looks the big winner, with support of 30-35%. However, the Greens are also polling favourably, which indicates to me how much of this is b/s & protest. However, this does look like being the least predictable GE ever, particularly given that a party needs concentrated support to win seats under FPTP. I'm sure some of the Labour support will return, given the lack of alternatives, while support for Reform & the Greens will fall. It's the Tories who are in danger of being wiped out, especially through the right wing vote being split with Reform. I'm sure some senior Tories are considering a pact or merger with Reform, but that would be unpalatable to plenty of moderate Conservatives.
Agreed that there is always a protest vote at this time in the electorial cycle. "I'm sure some of the Labour support will return ....."
Not so sure myself. Labour seem determined to shoot themselves in the feet at the moment. But we shalll see. The election is a long way off yet.
I believe votes will fall away from the extremist greens. For them it seems not to be about climate change but much more about social enginering.
-1
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 19:05 - Oct 9 with 272 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 15:42 - Oct 7 by DJR
His grand family home is in Herefordshire, a long way from his constituency. According to the 2021 Census, 96.9% of the population are white. The village he lives in is even more white.
[Post edited 7 Oct 15:45]
I wonder if the reason he left is the 96.9% or the 3.1%.
Probably neither, I know, but there's no need to let that get in the way of aiming another kick at a racist.
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 18:37 - Oct 8 by eireblue
Nobody said it was, and I didn’t say it was.
I haven’t got a label, but I have experience of racists.
I didn’t ask you about social integration.
Now back to my question.
Robert Jenrick came to the conclusion that the people he saw during 90 minutes were not integrated simply based on them being non-white.
That is racist isn’t it?
Why are you avoiding a simple question?
“Why are you avoiding a simple question?” Lol, good luck
The mention of Jenrick reminded me of this podcast I watched the other day about Enoch Powell. It’s not something I’d normally have the patience to watch/listen to, but I found it fascinating because it resonates so well with what we’re seeing now and also helped me understand what’s going on. Except now we have many rancid racists in the political classes and media and very few others prepared to condemn them in the strongest terms unlike in the 60s/70s, so the position has switched. There’s also been a switch in the general population from predominantly racist and anti-immigration in the 60s/70s to predominantly not racist/pro-immigration. You could argue that shows integration works, as people become less racist as immigrants become part of their lives and they realise they’re just people like us (the highest rates of racism are still seen in the whitest communities and I think that’s the key - people fear change and what they’re unfamiliar with).
Anyway, here’s the podcast (also available through podcast apps presumably). I’d recommend it to anyone interested in politics generally and specifically the weaponisation of race in politics. It’s a bit of a long watch/listen tho (about 1.5 hrs):
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 19:05 - Oct 9 by NthQldITFC
I wonder if the reason he left is the 96.9% or the 3.1%.
Probably neither, I know, but there's no need to let that get in the way of aiming another kick at a racist.
You’d think he’d be sensitive towards prejudice, or woke as it’s otherwise called, given he has a Jewish family. His wife’s grandparents survived the holocaust.
There’s a special place in hell for people who’ve failed to learn from their own family’s struggles (see also Badenoch for debasing herself by defending him for tribal and career gains).
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 19:22 - Oct 9 by Swansea_Blue
“Why are you avoiding a simple question?” Lol, good luck
The mention of Jenrick reminded me of this podcast I watched the other day about Enoch Powell. It’s not something I’d normally have the patience to watch/listen to, but I found it fascinating because it resonates so well with what we’re seeing now and also helped me understand what’s going on. Except now we have many rancid racists in the political classes and media and very few others prepared to condemn them in the strongest terms unlike in the 60s/70s, so the position has switched. There’s also been a switch in the general population from predominantly racist and anti-immigration in the 60s/70s to predominantly not racist/pro-immigration. You could argue that shows integration works, as people become less racist as immigrants become part of their lives and they realise they’re just people like us (the highest rates of racism are still seen in the whitest communities and I think that’s the key - people fear change and what they’re unfamiliar with).
Anyway, here’s the podcast (also available through podcast apps presumably). I’d recommend it to anyone interested in politics generally and specifically the weaponisation of race in politics. It’s a bit of a long watch/listen tho (about 1.5 hrs):
"There’s also been a switch in the general population from predominantly racist and anti-immigration in the 60s/70s to predominantly not racist/pro-immigration."
you are absolutely right that by a very large majority the uk public are not racist. where you are wrong is that by a very large majority the public does not support immigration at the current level.
according to ipsos in april "Two in three (67%) Britons believe the total number of people entering the UK is too high, with 43% stating it is "much too high.""
according to yougov in august only 22% now support immigration numbers remaining as they are.
what you are trying to do by contrasting your statement quoted above with "Except now we have many rancid racists in the political classes and media and very few others prepared to condemn them" is an intentional distortion. opposition to current immigration comes directly and very clearly from the public, as all the data shows it, it's not being imposed by politicians, and equally the public's opposition is not based in racism.
[Post edited 9 Oct 19:49]
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-1
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 20:55 - Oct 9 with 101 views
The Tories are dead aren't they? on 19:48 - Oct 9 by lowhouseblue
"There’s also been a switch in the general population from predominantly racist and anti-immigration in the 60s/70s to predominantly not racist/pro-immigration."
you are absolutely right that by a very large majority the uk public are not racist. where you are wrong is that by a very large majority the public does not support immigration at the current level.
according to ipsos in april "Two in three (67%) Britons believe the total number of people entering the UK is too high, with 43% stating it is "much too high.""
according to yougov in august only 22% now support immigration numbers remaining as they are.
what you are trying to do by contrasting your statement quoted above with "Except now we have many rancid racists in the political classes and media and very few others prepared to condemn them" is an intentional distortion. opposition to current immigration comes directly and very clearly from the public, as all the data shows it, it's not being imposed by politicians, and equally the public's opposition is not based in racism.
[Post edited 9 Oct 19:49]
Ok righto - must be so then Lucky the public down my way aren't swayed by endless myths and lies spread by the likes of Farage and co But we have been here before so I don't know why i bother
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