| Ashes reaction... 09:12 - Dec 21 with 1209 views | bluelagos |
Can't see how Key and McCullum can stay on after the series. So much put into this and so little delivered.
Genuinely believe this Aussie side is far from a top one so to be so throughly outplayed has to come with a need for a reset.
Ironically we played well overall in the past 2 days but why has it taken so long to ditch the T20 bollox and actually recognise test cricket requires a different approach?
The preparations have clearly not been successful, but there are selection questions too. Carey has been outstanding and shows how important a role a wicketkeeper is yet we play without one. Same with the spin bowler, asking batters to cover that role.
Stokes isn't above criticism, especially the way the bowlers seemed to forget where the stumps were for large parts of the tests. Again, T20 nonsense instead of standard test bowling.
More than disappointed tbh |  |
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| Ashes reaction... on 09:26 - Dec 21 with 1165 views | Radlett_blue |
Agreed, but McCullum is contracted until the end of 2027. Key could demote him to just being white ball coach, but England are actually worse at white ball cricket than Tests. |  |
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| Ashes reaction... on 09:45 - Dec 21 with 1126 views | bluelagos |
| Ashes reaction... on 09:26 - Dec 21 by Radlett_blue |
Agreed, but McCullum is contracted until the end of 2027. Key could demote him to just being white ball coach, but England are actually worse at white ball cricket than Tests. |
He might be better suited to coaching pyjama cricket but I wonder if his ego would allow him to accept that.
Would a payoff be prohibitive for the ECB? | |
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| Ashes reaction... on 10:04 - Dec 21 with 1088 views | woodbridge_blue |
| Ashes reaction... on 09:26 - Dec 21 by Radlett_blue |
Agreed, but McCullum is contracted until the end of 2027. Key could demote him to just being white ball coach, but England are actually worse at white ball cricket than Tests. |
The ECB has the authority to dismiss both Key and McCullum and, in my opinion, should do so immediately. The series is lost and no time should be wasted in planning for future Test series.
For years we have been told that everything red ball is geared towards The Ashes 25/26, at the expense of everything else, ignoring the fact that other countries such as India, South Africa and New Zealand present at least if not tougher challenges than Australia.
The whole process has been a total shambles, interspersed admittedly with some thrilling run chases, but no solid foundations have been built.
Of course we need an international class wicketkeeper but we muddle through with part timers who can allegedly bat a bit. The spin bowling position is a complete joke, so we end up with a white ball batsman who has hardly played, let alone bowled, for Surrey in the past three years in the County Championship.
At least two County Head Coaches have said they have never seen or been contacted by a selector at their red ball games.
I could go on. I managed to survive some fairly shambolic England set-ups in the 80s and 90s, but this lot top the lot.
On the plus side, WB Junior has had the time of his life in Adelaide and is looking forward to Melbourne. |  | | |
| Ashes reaction... on 10:43 - Dec 21 with 1027 views | MaySixth |
It is simplistic to blame a coaching regime for this result. Any coach or director of cricket, taking over an England men's teams, will struggle with the dysfunctional domestic system and challenges between creating that high-performance environment and keeping players from the franchise circuit. Just sacking a coach and director of cricket probably wouldn't make a lot of difference.
Then again it's this team management who have stopped using specialist coaching. This team management who thought the preparation for this series was adequate. It was this team management who have encouraged players to go hard for several years and are now trying to claim they also urged them to absorb pressure.
GD |  |
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| Ashes reaction... on 10:48 - Dec 21 with 1013 views | Radlett_blue |
| Ashes reaction... on 10:43 - Dec 21 by MaySixth |
It is simplistic to blame a coaching regime for this result. Any coach or director of cricket, taking over an England men's teams, will struggle with the dysfunctional domestic system and challenges between creating that high-performance environment and keeping players from the franchise circuit. Just sacking a coach and director of cricket probably wouldn't make a lot of difference.
Then again it's this team management who have stopped using specialist coaching. This team management who thought the preparation for this series was adequate. It was this team management who have encouraged players to go hard for several years and are now trying to claim they also urged them to absorb pressure.
GD |
The trend in Test cricket has been towards more 1 sided contests & more home wins. given the lack of preparation of most touring sides these days, that shouldn't be a surprise.
The schedule the ECB have saddled England with (out of greed, or to keep the players from being lost to franchise cricket) doesn't help.
Selectorial "hunch" calls, such as discarding England's best spin bowler (Leach) for the untried Bashir don't help. The latter needs to play more cricket, not learn by playing Test matches, but he couldn't get a game for Somerset & was hopeless in a loan spell at Glamorgan. | |
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| Ashes reaction... on 10:52 - Dec 21 with 1012 views | woodbridge_blue |
| Ashes reaction... on 10:43 - Dec 21 by MaySixth |
It is simplistic to blame a coaching regime for this result. Any coach or director of cricket, taking over an England men's teams, will struggle with the dysfunctional domestic system and challenges between creating that high-performance environment and keeping players from the franchise circuit. Just sacking a coach and director of cricket probably wouldn't make a lot of difference.
Then again it's this team management who have stopped using specialist coaching. This team management who thought the preparation for this series was adequate. It was this team management who have encouraged players to go hard for several years and are now trying to claim they also urged them to absorb pressure.
GD |
Good points, and I agree it's not all down to Key and MCullum....but a large and significant part of it is and they must shoulder the bulk of the responsibility.
I suppose it boils down to whether we are satisfied with the occasional thrilling high-octane match or series, at the expense of some dismal defeats.
Looking ahead long term, our structure is not preparing first class cricketers for hard-nosed, attrition test cricket so maybe old fossils like me will just have to get used to it. | | | |
| Ashes reaction... on 14:17 - Dec 21 with 923 views | gordon |
The article on BBC is mind-boggling to me - most of the team, according to that article, most of the squad were drinking for 6 days in a row in Brisbane and the trip to Noosa. Only 3 players turned up for a 7:45am run. The culture sounds awful. [Post edited 21 Dec 14:19]
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| Ashes reaction... on 18:24 - Dec 21 with 806 views | bournemouthblue |
| Ashes reaction... on 10:43 - Dec 21 by MaySixth |
It is simplistic to blame a coaching regime for this result. Any coach or director of cricket, taking over an England men's teams, will struggle with the dysfunctional domestic system and challenges between creating that high-performance environment and keeping players from the franchise circuit. Just sacking a coach and director of cricket probably wouldn't make a lot of difference.
Then again it's this team management who have stopped using specialist coaching. This team management who thought the preparation for this series was adequate. It was this team management who have encouraged players to go hard for several years and are now trying to claim they also urged them to absorb pressure.
GD |
I do agree that the issues are more systematic
Personally I would make sure we are using Kookaburra balls in the home tests before the Ashes down under, consider playing on Drop In pitches for some of these tests as well and some decent warm up games/series before going to Australia
They probably need some pink ball tests, have they ever tried pink ball county games? |  |
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| Ashes reaction... on 11:43 - Dec 22 with 644 views | stonojnr |
| Ashes reaction... on 10:43 - Dec 21 by MaySixth |
It is simplistic to blame a coaching regime for this result. Any coach or director of cricket, taking over an England men's teams, will struggle with the dysfunctional domestic system and challenges between creating that high-performance environment and keeping players from the franchise circuit. Just sacking a coach and director of cricket probably wouldn't make a lot of difference.
Then again it's this team management who have stopped using specialist coaching. This team management who thought the preparation for this series was adequate. It was this team management who have encouraged players to go hard for several years and are now trying to claim they also urged them to absorb pressure.
GD |
undoubtedly the problem starts at the very top with the ECB setup that impacts the domestic county game setup, with the ECBs obsessions to chase money in limited overs games as the future at the expense of red ball cricket that eventually ends up with an England team who basically can only play one way now, and touring Australia and making a grand old muck up of it...again.
none of these are shocking revelations, these are things that have been pointed out for years now, and no changing the coach wont help fix it overnight.
but what exactly is Baz bringing to the team thats making them able to compete with Australia ? not alot anymore imo, he doesnt seem to understand whats needed, and is even trying to gaslight the media, it was him who said the Ashes was the biggest series, and yet theyre all trying to claim the media created that narrative, he claimed the preparation was perfect, it wasnt, then claimed they over prepped, now is claiming actually we think its under prepped.
and there seems to be a big breakdown within the squad, in terms of discipline, attitude, focus on whats at hand, that I dont think Ive ever seen before, and there have been terrible England setups & tours, with really big fissures among players who really couldnt stand each other, and yet they managed to still do better than this lot. | | | |
| Ashes reaction... on 11:49 - Dec 22 with 632 views | Bobbychase |
Australia last won a series in England in 2001, England last one in Australia in 2010-11. It's become very much "advantage home side" in the Ashes but the reason Australia keep drawing over here and are therefore able to retain the urn is that they seem to take it more seriously than us. What has happened this series, from our batting being underprepared for the conditions and Mark Wood being injured, was entirely predictable.
There was a chance, with Cummins missing two tests, Hazelwood out as well, Smith injured and now Lyon. But we play a brand of brainless cricket of which Harry Brook is the worst example, a generational talent who could have really hurt them but decided to chuck his wicket away as often as he could.
Maybe once Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Smith and Hazelwood retire there might be a reset.
And too many commentators cannot say anything about the root causes as they are on the payroll of competitions like the hundred. |  |
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| Ashes reaction... on 11:53 - Dec 22 with 627 views | stonojnr |
| Ashes reaction... on 18:24 - Dec 21 by bournemouthblue |
I do agree that the issues are more systematic
Personally I would make sure we are using Kookaburra balls in the home tests before the Ashes down under, consider playing on Drop In pitches for some of these tests as well and some decent warm up games/series before going to Australia
They probably need some pink ball tests, have they ever tried pink ball county games? |
the whole point of county matches using kookaburra balls was meant to give players the prep they'd need for an ashes tour.
its largely been accepted now it doesnt really change the fundamentals of bowling, so no we dont need to play with kookaburra balls to get better at playing Australia
we need to understand that if you push county games to the margins of the calendar, devote an entire month in the middle of summer, when conditions most match what we find on tours, to a hit and giggle contest, you are not developing test quality bowlers or batsmen.
and really the difference in Australian conditions is the bounce, and the relentless heat, neither can be replicated in England, you need to do practice matches in those conditions, unfortunately England have used the first 3 test matches of this series as those practice matches, and you can just now see their beginning to get the conditions.
pink ball games, well England have played pink ball games outside of Australia, but theyre quite rare, they were offered a game which they turned down, which was ridiculous considering so many of the squad had never even played one pink ball game, but clearly it would have disrupted some of their boozing. | | | |
| Ashes reaction... on 11:57 - Dec 22 with 622 views | stonojnr |
McCullum wont be sacked even if we lost 5-0, theres the T20 World Cup in February, the ECB will be worried about that more than trying to fix test cricket as theyve got till June before they worry about that again
and especially since he and Key are arguably simply following the ECBs lead anyway, ie theyre doing exactly what their employers asked them to do and who signed off on everything those two have setup since they came in, so why would they sack them ? | | | |
| Ashes reaction... on 12:42 - Dec 22 with 594 views | Bobbychase |
| Ashes reaction... on 11:53 - Dec 22 by stonojnr |
the whole point of county matches using kookaburra balls was meant to give players the prep they'd need for an ashes tour.
its largely been accepted now it doesnt really change the fundamentals of bowling, so no we dont need to play with kookaburra balls to get better at playing Australia
we need to understand that if you push county games to the margins of the calendar, devote an entire month in the middle of summer, when conditions most match what we find on tours, to a hit and giggle contest, you are not developing test quality bowlers or batsmen.
and really the difference in Australian conditions is the bounce, and the relentless heat, neither can be replicated in England, you need to do practice matches in those conditions, unfortunately England have used the first 3 test matches of this series as those practice matches, and you can just now see their beginning to get the conditions.
pink ball games, well England have played pink ball games outside of Australia, but theyre quite rare, they were offered a game which they turned down, which was ridiculous considering so many of the squad had never even played one pink ball game, but clearly it would have disrupted some of their boozing. |
Hit and giggle is the best description I have ever seen for the hundred | |
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| Ashes reaction... on 12:54 - Dec 22 with 576 views | mellowblue |
| Ashes reaction... on 11:49 - Dec 22 by Bobbychase |
Australia last won a series in England in 2001, England last one in Australia in 2010-11. It's become very much "advantage home side" in the Ashes but the reason Australia keep drawing over here and are therefore able to retain the urn is that they seem to take it more seriously than us. What has happened this series, from our batting being underprepared for the conditions and Mark Wood being injured, was entirely predictable.
There was a chance, with Cummins missing two tests, Hazelwood out as well, Smith injured and now Lyon. But we play a brand of brainless cricket of which Harry Brook is the worst example, a generational talent who could have really hurt them but decided to chuck his wicket away as often as he could.
Maybe once Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Smith and Hazelwood retire there might be a reset.
And too many commentators cannot say anything about the root causes as they are on the payroll of competitions like the hundred. |
"And too many commentators cannot say anything about the root causes as they are on the payroll of competitions like the hundred."
Too many wise heads have been either pensioned off or sadly died in the case of Bob Willis. There are few that challenge the party line. | | | |
| Ashes reaction... on 13:00 - Dec 22 with 508 views | mellowblue |
| Ashes reaction... on 18:24 - Dec 21 by bournemouthblue |
I do agree that the issues are more systematic
Personally I would make sure we are using Kookaburra balls in the home tests before the Ashes down under, consider playing on Drop In pitches for some of these tests as well and some decent warm up games/series before going to Australia
They probably need some pink ball tests, have they ever tried pink ball county games? |
pointless using Kookaburra balls in English conditions, they have tried it at county level and it failed. If they were to try it at test level there would be high scoring draws, as happened at county level. Can't recall any pink ball county games. Pointless again as the test players play so few county games now. And if they do they tend to be in April/ early May. Would be absolutely no appetite for night games under lights in April in the UK. | | | |
| Ashes reaction... on 13:08 - Dec 22 with 490 views | jontysnut |
Given the number of days they've had off for early finishes ' burnout' won't be appearing as an excuse. |  | | |
| Ashes reaction... on 15:16 - Dec 22 with 402 views | Radlett_blue |
| Ashes reaction... on 13:00 - Dec 22 by mellowblue |
pointless using Kookaburra balls in English conditions, they have tried it at county level and it failed. If they were to try it at test level there would be high scoring draws, as happened at county level. Can't recall any pink ball county games. Pointless again as the test players play so few county games now. And if they do they tend to be in April/ early May. Would be absolutely no appetite for night games under lights in April in the UK. |
We've tried this stuff with the balls before, once reducing the size of the seam on the Duke ball, in an attempt to make it harder for English medium pacers to get the ball to move around. I think, like the Kookaburra experiment, this was dropped after batting sides were racking up huge scores. English conditions are very different from Australia &other countries so, naturally, we produce bowlers who often aren't effective in foreign conditions. Chris Woakes is the prime example. | |
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| Ashes reaction... on 08:44 - Dec 24 with 229 views | Zx1988 |
| Ashes reaction... on 13:08 - Dec 22 by jontysnut |
Given the number of days they've had off for early finishes ' burnout' won't be appearing as an excuse. |
I see that they've trotted out the excuse that the players are allowed a blow-out, as they get so little time off.
What terrible optics.
Nobody forces these players to accept highly-paid central contracts, nor are they forced to sign up for every franchise league going. I'd gladly take a central contract, even if the downside was one Christmas in four away from home. Similarly, if I felt a bit burnt out, perhaps I'd take one fewer six-figure franchise contract next year.
It feels as if The Ashes has become an all-expenses-paid jolly for a lot of the team. I don't begrudge them having some fun, but they should at least have the common sense to do it behind closed doors. Doubly so when people have paid thousands of pounds to travel half way around the world, not to be able to even use their Day 3 tickets for Perth. | |
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| Ashes reaction... on 19:19 - Dec 24 with 112 views | Chrisd |
| Ashes reaction... on 11:49 - Dec 22 by Bobbychase |
Australia last won a series in England in 2001, England last one in Australia in 2010-11. It's become very much "advantage home side" in the Ashes but the reason Australia keep drawing over here and are therefore able to retain the urn is that they seem to take it more seriously than us. What has happened this series, from our batting being underprepared for the conditions and Mark Wood being injured, was entirely predictable.
There was a chance, with Cummins missing two tests, Hazelwood out as well, Smith injured and now Lyon. But we play a brand of brainless cricket of which Harry Brook is the worst example, a generational talent who could have really hurt them but decided to chuck his wicket away as often as he could.
Maybe once Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Smith and Hazelwood retire there might be a reset.
And too many commentators cannot say anything about the root causes as they are on the payroll of competitions like the hundred. |
The difference is the Aussies come over here and make a fight of it, look how many series they have drawn in that time or lost by the odd test. England head across to Oz and invariably get battered, it’s not even a contest.
In my opinion, the cricketing structure in Australia is far superior to what we have here with the County game. Sheffield Shield cricket breeds tough and mentally strong cricketers ready to play Test match cricket. It doesn’t matter when Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood and Lyon retire they’ll have others ready to step up. Look at England’s situation who are ready to challenge Crawley, Duckett and Pope? Bethell is yet another batsmen that has no patience, plays expansively and gives his wicket away cheaply. He’s a real gamble for me, he’s still trying to find his feet in cricket full-stop. | |
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| Ashes reaction... on 21:26 - Dec 24 with 60 views | bournemouthblue |
| Ashes reaction... on 11:53 - Dec 22 by stonojnr |
the whole point of county matches using kookaburra balls was meant to give players the prep they'd need for an ashes tour.
its largely been accepted now it doesnt really change the fundamentals of bowling, so no we dont need to play with kookaburra balls to get better at playing Australia
we need to understand that if you push county games to the margins of the calendar, devote an entire month in the middle of summer, when conditions most match what we find on tours, to a hit and giggle contest, you are not developing test quality bowlers or batsmen.
and really the difference in Australian conditions is the bounce, and the relentless heat, neither can be replicated in England, you need to do practice matches in those conditions, unfortunately England have used the first 3 test matches of this series as those practice matches, and you can just now see their beginning to get the conditions.
pink ball games, well England have played pink ball games outside of Australia, but theyre quite rare, they were offered a game which they turned down, which was ridiculous considering so many of the squad had never even played one pink ball game, but clearly it would have disrupted some of their boozing. |
The flaw there is that few of the test team actually play county cricket so the whole experiment was pretty meaningless.
It would be interesting to know they did it also to take some pressure of Dukes Balls, which have been having problems in recent years, their stitchers were going on strike and seemed to coincide with supply issues and the quality of the balls dropping.
I thought one of their findings with the Hundred is a good portion of red ball players don't play the Hundred and actually some red ball stuff could still be played, clearly nothing has come of that?
I actually wonder if they should have an overseas segment in somewhere like Dubai for April too, where the weather isn't really conducive to good batting conditions.
Edit: I was a big critic of the preparation and schedule going into this series, you can't beat some actual match practice and we seemed to have a policy of getting none in [Post edited 24 Dec 21:33]
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| Ashes reaction... on 21:37 - Dec 24 with 37 views | bournemouthblue |
| Ashes reaction... on 15:16 - Dec 22 by Radlett_blue |
We've tried this stuff with the balls before, once reducing the size of the seam on the Duke ball, in an attempt to make it harder for English medium pacers to get the ball to move around. I think, like the Kookaburra experiment, this was dropped after batting sides were racking up huge scores. English conditions are very different from Australia &other countries so, naturally, we produce bowlers who often aren't effective in foreign conditions. Chris Woakes is the prime example. |
That's why I would consider drop in pitches also
Heat and being systematically abused by an entire nation obviously isn't so easy to replicate | |
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| Ashes reaction... on 21:39 - Dec 24 with 35 views | jontysnut |
Can't say I was too convinced by Rob Key's appointment. It easy running England cricket from the SKY boundary hut. | | | |
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