| Starmer is a dead man walking 12:37 - Feb 4 with 15810 views | hype313 |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:55 - Feb 6 with 873 views | vapour_trail |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:43 - Feb 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
In my opinion that would just cause more economic damage, most of our regulation is still in line with that of the EEA so it in theory shouldn’t be a long transition. Another referendum first would just create more years of uncertainty for businesses, and EU accession would likely take years at the pace the EU moves. Rejoin the Single Market and have a referendum on full membership in the future. |
As someone who was a staunch remainer, I completely agree with this.
Then add on the amplification of social divisions for the decade around the vote.
That doesn’t mean you can’t look to undo some of the damage that was caused by brexit, and strengthen ties with the block. |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:03 - Feb 6 with 839 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:49 - Feb 6 by StokieBlue |
I think there are wider issues here though.
We are alone in a world increasingly run by large countries and blocks. We don't really have any good deals with any of them and in reality the US is moving further away from us and Europe.
Joining the single market would help economically but on the wider front we really need to be part of a block that can realistically push back on the superstates.
Not everything can be narrowed down to what is absolutely best economically.
However, if a referendum to rejoin was part of the plan after joining the single market then that would be a good step from where we are now.
SB |
But Europe’s power is access to the single market. It has much more influence economically than it does militarily. As part of the trading bloc you can apply tariffs and sanctions which is where Europe’s power comes from. Other EEA members who are not in the European Union like Norway follow the EU sanctions regime. Being part of the EU makes little difference in that respect. |  | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:10 - Feb 6 with 815 views | grow_our_own |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 15:35 - Feb 5 by DJR |
I suppose the irony is that when it came to Russian self-smearing (to use your term) Corbyn was an amateur compared to the man who beat him, Johnson.
As Peter Oborne said.
"Let’s imagine that Corbyn had somehow won the last election. That he had then filled up Labour Party coffers with Russian money; that his party chairman had an office in Moscow to advise oligarchs; that Corbyn personally had repeatedly visited a Russian oligarch whose father had been a KGB agent and close friend of Putin, and that he had been reported to have ignored security service objections to secure this friend a peerage, and funnelled government money towards his paper.
For day after day there would have been front-page denunciations of Corbyn. He couldn’t have survived. In my view rightly so. Yet Johnson is the one who’s done all of these things. But Corbyn is the one who’s supposed to be pro-Putin." |
Two leaders can both be Russian assets at the same time. Corbyn did regularly appear on Russia Today up until he became leader, and does oppose arming Ukraine. It's not a "smear" to state these facts. And Johnson did all those things Peter Osborne says. The choice shouldn't be between a corrupt Tory, and a Labour leader so far left that he's willing to excuse and promote the narratives of dictatorships that are or have been communist. | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:15 - Feb 6 with 781 views | Benters |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:53 - Feb 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I hardly think noting that there's been no response 9 hours later is being at someone's "beck and call". |
Well R thought there was a bit of pressure to answer you Mr.Important 🤓😂 |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:21 - Feb 6 with 763 views | WeWereZombies |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:03 - Feb 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
But Europe’s power is access to the single market. It has much more influence economically than it does militarily. As part of the trading bloc you can apply tariffs and sanctions which is where Europe’s power comes from. Other EEA members who are not in the European Union like Norway follow the EU sanctions regime. Being part of the EU makes little difference in that respect. |
Furthermore rejoining the European Union (even if we could meet the criteria as they now stand) would not be on the same favourable terms that we used to enjoy, we've thrown that away.
Consider also a point made by John Simpson on 'Unspun World', 2025 was a year like 1968 and 1989, a year in which the changes in the 'World Order' became evident. Demographics and improving technology have long driven these changes and it has led to two cynical and unaspiring old men like Putin and Trump to think they can carve the World up in two. They can't, there are five power blocks now (the United States, the European Union, Russia, China and India) and some are based on huge populations, some on nuclear weapons and some on economics - or a combination of two or three of those. On top of that you have significant powers who have alliances with one or more of the five (the United Kingdom, Japan, Canada, Turkey, Brazil, South Africa and upcoming Indonesia and Nigeria) with either economic or demographic strengths.
Add in the necessity of a reform of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation you can see that our relationship with Continental Europe (and indeed the Commonwealth) can be seen as fluid at present and we have critical choices to face. Labour might be the grown ups and the party most likely to achieve something but still appear unlikely to do the job unprompted . As far as the other parties currently extant in the United Kingdom go, they are not serious contenders, are they ? Anyone considering voting for 'Reform' or 'The Greens' are a little bit delusional, aren't they ? |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:25 - Feb 6 with 743 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:10 - Feb 6 by grow_our_own |
Two leaders can both be Russian assets at the same time. Corbyn did regularly appear on Russia Today up until he became leader, and does oppose arming Ukraine. It's not a "smear" to state these facts. And Johnson did all those things Peter Osborne says. The choice shouldn't be between a corrupt Tory, and a Labour leader so far left that he's willing to excuse and promote the narratives of dictatorships that are or have been communist. |
I’d be extremely surprised to find out Corbyn’s an actual asset. He’s a bit of a bumbling fool who plays into their hands with his student hippy routine. But he’s like that with every issue whether or not linked to Russia. He’s been more of a useful idiot I’d say; naive, yet often proved correct (he was one of the first to warn the West about Putin after all; he was openly talking to the active IRA while the government was doing so covertly). He’s been fundamentally correct in that the only way to resolve conflicts is through maintaining dialogue.
The trouble is, when he talks to people unilaterally it doesn’t lead to anything. He’s playing around the edges and just making noise. The real progress gets done by others after they’ve finished punching each other. Corbyn stands in the corner shouting ‘stop punching’ and nobody listens to him. |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:27 - Feb 6 with 738 views | grow_our_own |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:43 - Feb 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
In my opinion that would just cause more economic damage, most of our regulation is still in line with that of the EEA so it in theory shouldn’t be a long transition. Another referendum first would just create more years of uncertainty for businesses, and EU accession would likely take years at the pace the EU moves. Rejoin the Single Market and have a referendum on full membership in the future. |
"uncertainty for businesses" - uncertainty is only a problem when there's the possibility of a negative outcome. Unlike leaving the EU, rejoining it pretty much all upside. And yes I am coining a BS phrase from the spiv David Davis. We'll undo the 4% hit the OBR says Brexit is causing to our economy.
Joining the single-market alone is like non-voting remain. We'd follow most of the EU's rules without a say in shaping them. I'd prefer the real thing. 10-15 years is long enough considering the step change in public opinion and the new, urgent need to band with other middle powers.
Despite a big poll lead for rejoining, there's negative sentiment to "Freedom of Movement". This is the big argument to win. Truth is, there's no such thing as "freedom of movement". It doesn't exist. Only Freedom of Movement of Workers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Until the average Joe stops believing the claptrap that joining the EU will mean millions of eastern Europeans can come and sponge off the state and grab council houses, then rejoining will go nowhere. [Post edited 12 Feb 9:48]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:29 - Feb 6 with 727 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:03 - Feb 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
But Europe’s power is access to the single market. It has much more influence economically than it does militarily. As part of the trading bloc you can apply tariffs and sanctions which is where Europe’s power comes from. Other EEA members who are not in the European Union like Norway follow the EU sanctions regime. Being part of the EU makes little difference in that respect. |
As GB has pointed out, joining the single market includes freedom of movement which seems a difficult sell at the moment. If you are going to get freedom of movement you might as well rejoin given that was one of the biggest "reasons" for leaving.
You are correct that currently the EU military isn't a huge factor but given the direction of travel that is likely to change over the next decade.
SB |  | | |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:30 - Feb 6 with 720 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:21 - Feb 6 by WeWereZombies |
Furthermore rejoining the European Union (even if we could meet the criteria as they now stand) would not be on the same favourable terms that we used to enjoy, we've thrown that away.
Consider also a point made by John Simpson on 'Unspun World', 2025 was a year like 1968 and 1989, a year in which the changes in the 'World Order' became evident. Demographics and improving technology have long driven these changes and it has led to two cynical and unaspiring old men like Putin and Trump to think they can carve the World up in two. They can't, there are five power blocks now (the United States, the European Union, Russia, China and India) and some are based on huge populations, some on nuclear weapons and some on economics - or a combination of two or three of those. On top of that you have significant powers who have alliances with one or more of the five (the United Kingdom, Japan, Canada, Turkey, Brazil, South Africa and upcoming Indonesia and Nigeria) with either economic or demographic strengths.
Add in the necessity of a reform of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation you can see that our relationship with Continental Europe (and indeed the Commonwealth) can be seen as fluid at present and we have critical choices to face. Labour might be the grown ups and the party most likely to achieve something but still appear unlikely to do the job unprompted . As far as the other parties currently extant in the United Kingdom go, they are not serious contenders, are they ? Anyone considering voting for 'Reform' or 'The Greens' are a little bit delusional, aren't they ? |
I'm absolutely OK with taking the EUR and losing our veto and rebate.
That is the price we will have to pay for our foolish decision.
SB | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:31 - Feb 6 with 716 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:54 - Feb 6 by GlasgowBlue |
I understand what you are saying but a condition of joining the single market is accepting freedom of movement. With reform already holding a considerable lead in the polls that policy would basically hand them the next election on a plate.
The May deal would have allowed us to stay in the Customs Union but the no deal Tories and second referendum group from Labour and the Lib Dem’s ensured that never happened.
[Post edited 6 Feb 9:55]
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They hold a lead in the polls based on that point but when voters are asked about rejoining the EU as a whole there is a majority in favour given current polling. In fact the percentage who don't want to rejoin the EU looks pretty similar to the combined voting intention for Reform+Tories [1] [2].
If an honest debate could be had around it then that would be something but given the current state of politics across the globe, honest arguments are usually impossible given the fake narratives that are thrown around.
SB
[1]. https://www.whatukthinks.org/e
[2]. https://www.independent.co.uk/ | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:31 - Feb 6 with 704 views | lowhouseblue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:10 - Feb 6 by grow_our_own |
Two leaders can both be Russian assets at the same time. Corbyn did regularly appear on Russia Today up until he became leader, and does oppose arming Ukraine. It's not a "smear" to state these facts. And Johnson did all those things Peter Osborne says. The choice shouldn't be between a corrupt Tory, and a Labour leader so far left that he's willing to excuse and promote the narratives of dictatorships that are or have been communist. |
corbyn being a russian asset seemed far fetched. there's just something in his make up that means he always instinctively aligns with violent totalitarian regimes - russia, iran, venezula, etc. strange for a 'man of peace', but i guess not being america is enough, and at least the first two paid him to appear on their propaganda tv. i don't see highlighting his career long foreign policy stances as a smear.
but, no more. corbyn is sooo 2019 and best left there. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:50 - Feb 6 with 673 views | WeWereZombies |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:30 - Feb 6 by StokieBlue |
I'm absolutely OK with taking the EUR and losing our veto and rebate.
That is the price we will have to pay for our foolish decision.
SB |
If that's what you think then I guess you haven't taken my other points on board. There is a potentially catastrophic opportunity cost on rejoining. grow_our_own has pointed out the 4% hit our economy is enduring post-Brexit but we could have a 10% increase in our economic strength if we aligned ourselves more with, say, India as a forthcoming manufacturing and information technology powerhouse. I know many will ask if Modi is any different from Putin or Xi (or Trump for that matter) but I counter that with India's ability to surprise in terms of democratic reasoning and discourse (challenging as we may find it) which is seeing Modi's voting base shrink. Plus there is some degree of interdependency in that we can benefit from the demographic size and they can benefit from the United Kingdom's trading relationships (also true for Canada, another important and material rich partner we should foster.) I know it's not either/or but we shouldn't hamstring our prospects too much. | |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:54 - Feb 6 with 661 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:50 - Feb 6 by WeWereZombies |
If that's what you think then I guess you haven't taken my other points on board. There is a potentially catastrophic opportunity cost on rejoining. grow_our_own has pointed out the 4% hit our economy is enduring post-Brexit but we could have a 10% increase in our economic strength if we aligned ourselves more with, say, India as a forthcoming manufacturing and information technology powerhouse. I know many will ask if Modi is any different from Putin or Xi (or Trump for that matter) but I counter that with India's ability to surprise in terms of democratic reasoning and discourse (challenging as we may find it) which is seeing Modi's voting base shrink. Plus there is some degree of interdependency in that we can benefit from the demographic size and they can benefit from the United Kingdom's trading relationships (also true for Canada, another important and material rich partner we should foster.) I know it's not either/or but we shouldn't hamstring our prospects too much. |
But if we take the example of India, the EU has just secured a far better free trade deal with them than anything we have managed [1].
The EU has also done a trade deal with the Mercosur block [2].
If anything the EU has been far more successful at getting deals over the line than we have since we left, we just don't have the economic clout alone for these big players you mention to prioritise us.
SB
[1]. https://www.weforum.org/storie
[2]. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/art | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:01 - Feb 6 with 629 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:54 - Feb 6 by StokieBlue |
But if we take the example of India, the EU has just secured a far better free trade deal with them than anything we have managed [1].
The EU has also done a trade deal with the Mercosur block [2].
If anything the EU has been far more successful at getting deals over the line than we have since we left, we just don't have the economic clout alone for these big players you mention to prioritise us.
SB
[1]. https://www.weforum.org/storie
[2]. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/art |
I would agree with that - India and China are very restrictive markets to enter with a lot of invisible trade barriers, and somewhat hostile oversight of foreign firms. The Single Market gives much more leverage in terms of agreeing mutually beneficial trade agreements.
I would add, that perhaps more importantly, the EEA tends to offer better protection for domestic industry, some of the post-Brexit ‘deals’ are dreadful and will just see offshoring of jobs to cheaper jurisdictions. The EU - particularly France and Germany will always look to protect their industries (e.g. tougher tariffs on cheap Chinese vehicles). | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:11 - Feb 6 with 605 views | grow_our_own |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:50 - Feb 6 by WeWereZombies |
If that's what you think then I guess you haven't taken my other points on board. There is a potentially catastrophic opportunity cost on rejoining. grow_our_own has pointed out the 4% hit our economy is enduring post-Brexit but we could have a 10% increase in our economic strength if we aligned ourselves more with, say, India as a forthcoming manufacturing and information technology powerhouse. I know many will ask if Modi is any different from Putin or Xi (or Trump for that matter) but I counter that with India's ability to surprise in terms of democratic reasoning and discourse (challenging as we may find it) which is seeing Modi's voting base shrink. Plus there is some degree of interdependency in that we can benefit from the demographic size and they can benefit from the United Kingdom's trading relationships (also true for Canada, another important and material rich partner we should foster.) I know it's not either/or but we shouldn't hamstring our prospects too much. |
"opportunity cost on rejoining" - doesn't exist. Trade is like gravity. It's stronger with proximity. EU has just done a trade deal with India, but even if it hadn't, deals with distant countries pale into insignificance vs those with the biggest block of economies in the world on our doorstep. Our current trade deal with India adds 0.13% to GDP according to the govt, vs 4% hit from leaving the EU. Other deals since Brexit include Australia +0.08% and Japan +0.07%. We've been penny smart, and pound stupid.
Plus, if we've learned anything in the last few decades, it's like Mark Carney said: liberal democracies should club together. Countries that believe in rules-based international order, human rights, etc should prioritise and mutually benefit each other first and foremost. United we stand, divided we fall. [Post edited 6 Feb 11:12]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:11 - Feb 6 with 604 views | WeWereZombies |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:01 - Feb 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I would agree with that - India and China are very restrictive markets to enter with a lot of invisible trade barriers, and somewhat hostile oversight of foreign firms. The Single Market gives much more leverage in terms of agreeing mutually beneficial trade agreements.
I would add, that perhaps more importantly, the EEA tends to offer better protection for domestic industry, some of the post-Brexit ‘deals’ are dreadful and will just see offshoring of jobs to cheaper jurisdictions. The EU - particularly France and Germany will always look to protect their industries (e.g. tougher tariffs on cheap Chinese vehicles). |
Apologies to Stokie for using your reply to him to, in part, answer him as well as you. My point on India (and it could also apply to Nigeria, South Africa and a number of other Commonwealth nations) is one of making investment into those nations rather than depending on trade agreements. That does indeed bring the danger of offshoring or similar dangers if seen as a master / servant relationship but really this is thinking from the last century (and maybe the European Union are guilty of this.) Bear in mind that the King is no longer head of the Commonwealth, that the organisation is no longer centred on the United Kingdom. That it is somewhat moribund and very conflicted in its interests is fairly self evident, but the potential is there waiting to be released if enough political will can be shown. | |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:12 - Feb 6 with 604 views | DJR |
It has just struck me that the song for Nunez would be perfect for Corbyn.  |  | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:17 - Feb 6 with 586 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:11 - Feb 6 by WeWereZombies |
Apologies to Stokie for using your reply to him to, in part, answer him as well as you. My point on India (and it could also apply to Nigeria, South Africa and a number of other Commonwealth nations) is one of making investment into those nations rather than depending on trade agreements. That does indeed bring the danger of offshoring or similar dangers if seen as a master / servant relationship but really this is thinking from the last century (and maybe the European Union are guilty of this.) Bear in mind that the King is no longer head of the Commonwealth, that the organisation is no longer centred on the United Kingdom. That it is somewhat moribund and very conflicted in its interests is fairly self evident, but the potential is there waiting to be released if enough political will can be shown. |
That’s is fair, but what I would say is there is plenty of opportunity for FDI in such markets now. However largely they are held back by internal issues that make it unattractive to UK/European firms - political instability, corruption, poor regulation, and dubious legal systems. That makes it a very high risk investment, and why it’s mainly been from the energy/natural resources industry with their huge balance sheets. | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:21 - Feb 6 with 554 views | WeWereZombies |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:11 - Feb 6 by grow_our_own |
"opportunity cost on rejoining" - doesn't exist. Trade is like gravity. It's stronger with proximity. EU has just done a trade deal with India, but even if it hadn't, deals with distant countries pale into insignificance vs those with the biggest block of economies in the world on our doorstep. Our current trade deal with India adds 0.13% to GDP according to the govt, vs 4% hit from leaving the EU. Other deals since Brexit include Australia +0.08% and Japan +0.07%. We've been penny smart, and pound stupid.
Plus, if we've learned anything in the last few decades, it's like Mark Carney said: liberal democracies should club together. Countries that believe in rules-based international order, human rights, etc should prioritise and mutually benefit each other first and foremost. United we stand, divided we fall. [Post edited 6 Feb 11:12]
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Opportunity costs always exist, it's only chancers who don't see them. If you have done any scenario planning you will know that there are always unforeseen costs identified on the post event review. It's a process that enables you to stop those costs arising next time.
Whilst true that exporting and importing to places close by has a use we live in a globalised and electronically connected trading environment. Knowledge can be trade to the house next door or an office in Bangalore at the same cost and speed. We do need to be food and water secure but must also be aware that many of the materials vital to our modern lives come from Chile, Bolivia, DR Congo and are assembled in Taiwan, Indonesia or Vietnam. | |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:36 - Feb 6 with 524 views | grow_our_own |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:01 - Feb 6 by DJR |
Before you accuse Corbyn of being a Russian asset I suggest you read the whole of the article by Peter Oborne.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/
Indeed, why would a committed socialist have supported what amounted to an oligarchy? Indeed, any attempt to link supposedly Marxist Corbyn with Russia because it is supposedly communist is a complete nonsense, given Russia hasn't been communist for 30 years.
And don't forget the British banks, the City, the British legal and accountancy firms and even British football clubs who welcomed dodgy Russian money and clients with open arms. And there was also the role that British tax havens played in the laundering and hiding of what was rather dubious money. And all of this done with government support.
But it's always Corbyn.
[Post edited 6 Feb 11:16]
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"But it's always Corbyn." - it's always whataboutery. Multiple bad things can all be true. I never said Russia was communist at the time Corbyn was a fixture on RT, but it was prior, and much fewer than 30 years before.
Agreed the mainly American accountants/management consultancies who assisted and whitewashed the rise of corrupt oligarchy in Russia is a major reason we're where we are. The new-dawn there after the Berlin wall fell should have been institution led rather than the chaotic move of public assets into private hands. [Post edited 6 Feb 12:57]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 11:39 - Feb 6 with 505 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 10:15 - Feb 6 by Benters |
Well R thought there was a bit of pressure to answer you Mr.Important 🤓😂 |
I hardly think asking 9 hours later is "pressure", or me in some way acting important.
I also find it hilarious the Glassers is getting involved without even being able to see what I've written.
We're now at 22 hours later and I've only asked once for a reply rather than just a downarrow. You have a strange definition of pressure and importance! |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 12:14 - Feb 6 with 435 views | DJR |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 12:05 - Feb 6 by GlasgowBlue |
I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure you were the first person to bring Corbyn into this thread. Page 3. |
I bet you're fun at parties. | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 12:34 - Feb 6 with 389 views | DJR |
Great front page on the latest Private Eye with a picture of Mandelson in his underpants and various captions.
My favourite is.
"I've let myself down, my party down and my trousers down."
But others are good too.
"He will need some decent briefs.
"Can we have a cover-up, pleaseI"
"Oh no! He's into M&S!" [Post edited 6 Feb 12:46]
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