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They know they don't deserve to be there, excellent stuff here, especially from 33 minutes in with the Boro caller, as usual, the excellent Simon Jordan nails it.
Please Hull save football! We can't let playoff losers get promoted!
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 14:13 - May 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
It’s the biggest story in world football at the moment, I’ll start as another many threads as I want, or be as passionate as I want on any issue, not really for you to say is it. Look how passionate people are on here about all kinds of rubbish on here. I hate cheese anyway. It’s shite.
At least it invokes discussion instead of an “Ashton out” protest or something.
If it’s getting under your skin don’t read them, just because you can’t understand that your opinion is might not be as cut dry at you think outside of main TWTD clique. There’s a few on here that agree with me as well.
Hull won their semi final on the pitch, Boro fluffed their opportunity. Southampton cheated against multiple teams in the EFL this year and no other side gets a benefit or awarded a win this season. it’s unprecedented so, the EFL have shown bottle against the cheats, fine. Boro are the only one to benefit from it in such an extreme way. Didn’t earn their opportunity on the pitch. I’m glad a lot of their fans from podcasts to phone in’s have good integrity to say so.
Again Hull won their semi final, they’re the only team in the tournament to do so and shouldn’t face such an unfair disadvantage from this saga.
It's not your interest in the story I'm surprised about, it's the passion with which you're anti-Boro. You're fully entitled to keep doing it, I'm not stopping you. I reserve the right to be surprised though!
You just keep repeating the same stuff over and over. We know the state of play. What you won't address is why Hull should benefit, from a situation they weren't involved in, to the tune of £200m and the associated trappings of Prem status. There's never been a team getting that for just winning a semi final, so I'm not sure why Hull should.
Southampton cheated against Boro, not Hull.
"At least it invokes discussion" - seems like you don't want a discussion, you just want everyone to join your weird anti-Boro crusade, and get rude/angry when they don't!
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 14:31 - May 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
Hull won, Boro lost. Southampton beat loads of teams in important season defining games for playoff chasing sides at the end of the season, Wrexham, Norwich, Derby. Unless of course they only cheated against us an Oxford, lol. Just kick them out, don’t reward losing, the others haven’t had that advantage for their chance to make the tournament.
Hull won one game v Millwall. Given that wasn't the play off final, I'm not sure why that result should entitle them to prem status and a £200m windfall, while Boro, the team actually cheated against, get nothing.
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 14:39 - May 21 by The_Flashing_Smile
Hull won one game v Millwall. Given that wasn't the play off final, I'm not sure why that result should entitle them to prem status and a £200m windfall, while Boro, the team actually cheated against, get nothing.
And by the looks of it, so did half the division trying to make the tournament and they get nothing overturned in their games or awarded the victory. Hull the only team that have won in it.
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 14:31 - May 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
Hull won, Boro lost. Southampton beat loads of teams in important season defining games for playoff chasing sides at the end of the season, Wrexham, Norwich, Derby. Unless of course they only cheated against us an Oxford, lol. Just kick them out, don’t reward losing, the others haven’t had that advantage for their chance to make the tournament.
nonsense, if you kick them out, stick to the rules of a knockout competition and let the team who qualified for the semi-finals, (and narrowly lost having been cheated against) through
blatantly ridiculous to reward hull a guaranteed £200m without having to win a play-off final, just because boro were cheated
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 14:52 - May 21 by positivity
nonsense, if you kick them out, stick to the rules of a knockout competition and let the team who qualified for the semi-finals, (and narrowly lost having been cheated against) through
blatantly ridiculous to reward hull a guaranteed £200m without having to win a play-off final, just because boro were cheated
It’s not nonsense though is it, just listen to any rules/legal sports analyst trying to explain it to you on various networks. That’s half the problem, it’s completely unprecedented with no actual sanction in place for what said consequences are, which in turns throws up a lot of debate about who is benefited at disadvantaged from the call that is made.
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 15:08 - May 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
It’s not nonsense though is it, just listen to any rules/legal sports analyst trying to explain it to you on various networks. That’s half the problem, it’s completely unprecedented with no actual sanction in place for what said consequences are, which in turns throws up a lot of debate about who is benefited at disadvantaged from the call that is made.
Is there a precedent for expelling a team from a knockout competition for breaching the rules (in a game directly affecting an opponent) and the defeated opponent not being reinstated?
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 14:31 - May 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
Hull won, Boro lost. Southampton beat loads of teams in important season defining games for playoff chasing sides at the end of the season, Wrexham, Norwich, Derby. Unless of course they only cheated against us an Oxford, lol. Just kick them out, don’t reward losing, the others haven’t had that advantage for their chance to make the tournament.
You continually ignore that Soton's proven cheating may well have been the reason for the Boro losing. Fine margins etc. as others have said.
You're like a flat earther refusing to look at globes & photos of planet earth from space.
I'm guessing you won't be taking your blackout glasses off anytime soon
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:24 - May 21 by bluelagos
Jordan's argument seems to revolve around the fact that Boro battered Soton in the first leg (which they did) and therefore Soton got no advantage from their cheating (which he accepts)
He lays the failure of Boro to beat Soton at the feet of Boro and therefore they do not deserve to benefit from Soton cheating.
But - and it is a huge but - we can never know what would have happened without the cheating. For example did Soton defend any set pieces based on any info gathered and therefore limit Boro's scoring opportunities from those?
Of course we can never know - but what we do know is that it is fairly standard to kick out a side from a cup game if they play an illegible player. A small infringement is treated as destroying the sporting integrity of the game - therefore the team that has erred is kicked out - irrespective of the score. You can win 3-0 and bring on an illegible sub for the last min and you are still kicked out.
So once we accept Soton are rightly punished given the sporting integrity of the results in the playoffs were compromised - Boro can't possibly get a fair result unless they are reinstated.
Or would you also look to ban both teams in the cup scenario described?
Boro - yep they get lucky for sure, but anything else is to simply ignore the wrong done to them, which can only be put right by them going to the final.
The end of your 4th paragraph shows how vital it is that your coaching staff have good handwriting!
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 15:08 - May 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
It’s not nonsense though is it, just listen to any rules/legal sports analyst trying to explain it to you on various networks. That’s half the problem, it’s completely unprecedented with no actual sanction in place for what said consequences are, which in turns throws up a lot of debate about who is benefited at disadvantaged from the call that is made.
you're arguing against a potential advantage for a wronged team and in favour of a massive confirmed advantage for a 3rd party.
there's no precedence for that, but plenty of precedence in myriad cup competitions for the reinstatement of the wronged team
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 08:40 - May 21 by TheMoralMajority
His argument entirely falls down under any scrutiny. Saying the punishment was too severe and then simply responding with "I don't know" when asked what a suitable punishment would be was enlightening.
Ultimately, if you attempt to mug someone, but they don't have anything to steal, it is still a crime.
If you do 100 MPH on the motorway, but subsequently get caught in traffic, it is still a crime.
If you attempt armed robbery, but fail to steal any money, it is still a crime.
In any of those scenarios, the perpetrator would not benefit.
Whether you benefit or not is not a marker of what the punishment should be. The marker is whether you sought to benefit, which Soton did.
I think both Jordan and Mills were well off the wider opinion on this. It's a rare thing to say, but all credit to the EFL on this one. They have set a precedent. If you seek to gain advantage by cheating you will be severely punished.
A lot of ex pros think that the punishment is harsh (and too harsh). I find that interesting, and I do generally want to have respect to those with more experience of something than myself.
But I think the reason the punishment seems so extreme is because the potential prize in the game in which they cheated was extreme. If it were one league game, and they were docked some points to reflect the one cheated game, then I don't think many people would raise too many eyebrows. Especially if it just took them from 4th to 5th/6th or similar. But it was a knockout game. It wouldn't be the harshest thing in the world to be removed from the FA Cup because of fielding an ineligible player, even if everyone knew that you had a player who was just as good on the bench. Forfeiting a game is essentially what we're talking about here. They spied in 3 games, they've forfeited one.
I can't really get excited about their 4 point deduction next season - I don't care one way or another. But I think Jordan has to realise that it was a sporting offence, and it's a sporting sanction. The same as if it were in the Carabao Cup or whatever.
Now you could argue that the penalty should be /more/ severe where the money they stand to gain is greater, to disincentivise the same sort of thing in future. Again, I'm not bothered overly. I think this punishment is about right, and gives a substantial deterrent effect. Whether we'll now see freelance spies who are more difficult to pin to one club, I don't know.
I do think that Jordan often speaks sense (and he's always quite nice about us). But I think he's on the wrong side here. And yes, his inability to offer an alternative punishment shows that he's not thought it through as well as he should have.
And in relation to your "attempt" point - you are of course right. In fact, the rule they broke doesn't just prohibit spying, but it also prohibits attempting to spy. So even if the guy had never got any data or information from the spying, let alone being able to deploy that so as to benefit them, it's still an offence under that rule.
Just playing devil's advocate for a moment though - if Soton had lost the semi-final, and this had all come out afterwards, what should the penalty have been then? Just 4 points next season? If so, the extent to which they may have benefitted will have affected the punishment strongly. Or should have got a bigger points penalty in that event? Not sure exactly how I feel on that. Maybe we should ask Jordan?! (NB not Katie Price...)
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Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 15:50 - May 21 with 197 views
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 15:08 - May 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
It’s not nonsense though is it, just listen to any rules/legal sports analyst trying to explain it to you on various networks. That’s half the problem, it’s completely unprecedented with no actual sanction in place for what said consequences are, which in turns throws up a lot of debate about who is benefited at disadvantaged from the call that is made.
Can you explain to me why Swindon got knocked out of the Pizza Cup this season please, and how the EFL righted that situation?
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Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 15:56 - May 21 with 176 views
Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 15:08 - May 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
It’s not nonsense though is it, just listen to any rules/legal sports analyst trying to explain it to you on various networks. That’s half the problem, it’s completely unprecedented with no actual sanction in place for what said consequences are, which in turns throws up a lot of debate about who is benefited at disadvantaged from the call that is made.
As has been pointed out multiple times, there is every precedent. Can you find an example of a club breaking the rules of a UK football competition and not forfeited the match or been expelled from that competition (aside from financial rules)?
I can only imagine that the reason the punishment is not specifically laid out is that there are situations where it would be nuanced. For example, the team found to have broken the rules lost in a knockout competition anyway.
I'm really surprised there's major controversy about this, especially from non Boro or Saints fans. They've been found to be cheating in two seperate competitions (as the EFL define them). The nature of the cheating clearly warrants sporting sanctions. In the cup competition there is clear precedent for cheating team's opponents being reinstated - the cheating team accrued an advantage over this team specifically. The extent to which this influenced the final result is both impossible to measure and irrelevant. For the league competition a points deduction is appropriate because an advantage was gained over multiple teams.
No other sanction is appropriate. Boro are fortunate sure, but that's irrelevant again. Hull were fortunate to make the playoffs on the back of an offside goal and dodgy (non-)penatly decision, that's football.
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Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 18:54 - May 21 with 54 views
Let's not all take the holier than though high ground here. What's happened is beyond Boro's control, I'm sure everyone at the club including supporters know just how fortunate they are. They're not going to turn it down, would we? The obvious best solution is a Hull win, but Boro are just complying with the wishes of the EFL. I hope for a Hull win, but I'm not kicking the metaphorical cat if they don't. And if they don't, well this sorry saga is going to take another twist, I think.
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Boro fans going up in my estimation! on 19:19 - May 21 with 29 views
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