| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' 08:35 - Jul 16 with 7146 views | jasondozzell |
He was narked after Norway and rightly.
I think he felt he had to go 5 at the back because we were so passive and weren't able to follow direction. No bite in midfield after the goal.
It's a psychological thing. English players are weak mentally compared to international counterparts.
Anyway glad we can get back to Town and proper football.
[Post edited 16 Jul 8:36]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 19:40 - Jul 16 with 857 views | darkhorse28 |
The players didn’t sub off every forward players for defenders, and drop ‘arry to an 8 leaving zero counter or out ball.
That was definitely Tuchel. They did drop and fear of winning was a cultural thing, but his only job at this tournament was to counter that with actual decisions and tactics, he failed the test.
Watkins or indeed many of our pacey players against their centre backs who were both booked, are not great 1 on 1 and have just lost the CDM to go all out attack.
We should have been licking our lips to sit in, yes, but have a real counter threat - we did EXACTLY what THEY wanted 100%.
If the Argentinian manager had made the decisions for us - he would have done 100% what Tuchel did.
That’s damning. |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 19:52 - Jul 16 with 826 views | Ryorry |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 19:40 - Jul 16 by darkhorse28 |
The players didn’t sub off every forward players for defenders, and drop ‘arry to an 8 leaving zero counter or out ball.
That was definitely Tuchel. They did drop and fear of winning was a cultural thing, but his only job at this tournament was to counter that with actual decisions and tactics, he failed the test.
Watkins or indeed many of our pacey players against their centre backs who were both booked, are not great 1 on 1 and have just lost the CDM to go all out attack.
We should have been licking our lips to sit in, yes, but have a real counter threat - we did EXACTLY what THEY wanted 100%.
If the Argentinian manager had made the decisions for us - he would have done 100% what Tuchel did.
That’s damning. |
Mm, the old tactic of "do what your opponent least wants you to do". |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 20:01 - Jul 16 with 810 views | LeoMuff |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 14:21 - Jul 16 by Blueschev |
I'm not really sure it was either camps fault. For the last 20 minutes the players looked completely knackered against the world champions. Not surprising given that they had travelled 14000 miles during the tournament. |
Use the offensive subs then ? Most of those guys have been rested and swapped throughout, should be fresh as daisies.
Mainoo for rice, Watkins for Kane , rashford for Gordon, Saka for Rogers. Play Anderson’s deep with Mainoo and Bellingham in front. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 20:08 - Jul 16 with 799 views | BlueBoots |
"No bite in midfield after the goal."
I'm guessing part of that is aimed at Declan Rice - can't help yourself having a pop at the central dads, can you?  |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 20:23 - Jul 16 with 770 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 20:08 - Jul 16 by BlueBoots |
"No bite in midfield after the goal."
I'm guessing part of that is aimed at Declan Rice - can't help yourself having a pop at the central dads, can you? |
😁😁😁 | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 20:42 - Jul 16 with 741 views | jasondozzell |
Mandy Rice Davies comes to mind. 'Well they would, wouldn't they...'
😉 | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 20:55 - Jul 16 with 715 views | LeoMuff |
Bellingham looked furious | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 21:11 - Jul 16 with 669 views | Vic |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:45 - Jul 16 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
I mean the players always have to take some responsibility as they are the ones playing.
But Tuchel got that so wrong last night. He gave Argentina exactly what they wanted, bet they couldn't believe their luck. |
I disagree.
Tuchel has said that it wasn’t the plan to drop back so quickly, he has said he wanted the players to step up and engage the Argies sooner. What happened after the goal is completely on the players. He even said that the subs were an attempt to try the help the team close down the wide areas where the cross were coming in from sooner.
No idea why they did it, but they did and we could all see it. We all knew the goal was going to come - and what would happen after that! I really don’t like to criticise players, but why didn’t Kane show some leadership on the pitch and demand the players get back into their positions and do what they had been doing before. He should have been screaming at them - instead he was back in his own penalty area leaving us with no outball. It was such a painful watch. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 21:15 - Jul 16 with 655 views | Vic |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:57 - Jul 16 by itfc48 |
There’s a video going around on Twitter where Cesc sums it up perfectly of how a player’s mentality can change when a manager makes subs like that.
It was dreadful, we weren’t an underdog ranked 50 places below taking a shock 1-0 lead. We are a side with some of the most expensive players in world football.
It wasn’t just we parked the bus, everyone was in the box meaning the Argentinians could select whatever shooting or crossing angle they wanted. You give players of that quality those options they will eventually pick out a cross or bang one in from distance. Even if not you’re relying on the second ball after a duel in the box falling your way. |
But didn’t the players go totally defensive before the substitutions - or was I watching a different match?
Yes he the subs could have been different, but it started so much earlier than them. | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 21:46 - Jul 16 with 613 views | BlueForYou |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:57 - Jul 16 by IP1Blue |
This is solely on Tuchel!
5 at the back was the worst thing you could of done against this Argentinian side, all of a sudden from 72nd minute, they had all the ball outside of our box. Their biggest strength is midfield and have Fernandes, MacAllister and Messi who can make things happen and all love a late run into the box which we couldn’t stop because we were pushed back to our 6 yard box. There was 2/3 warning signs before there first goal, to not then change it at 1-1 is criminal.
We needed 5 in midfield to stop there midfield from playing and then had not outlet upfront to get us up the pitch. He should have swapped Rashford for Gordon and Saka/Madueke for Rogers and then if Rice was unfit, bring Mainoo on and bought Bellingham back to the 8. 4-5-1 and compact in midfield to stop them from playing and also having fresh legs outside to get us up the pitch.
His squad selection was Abysmal, people will say Mainoo didn’t play because Tuchel doesn’t think he’s good enough but then why bring him! You can’t rely on Rice/Anderson every game and then not trust you only otherr natural CM to play. Palmer showed last Euros that he can impact these big games off the bench and defo should have been there. Trent as well should have been there, ended up having to play Konsa RB as makeshift cover and same with Quansah! Chalobah by the looks of it was called up to go on holiday!
If you would have been offered Congo, Mexico and Norway to get you through to a semis, you would have bit your hand off for it. You can see off games against Mexico and Norway with 5 at the back, but against Argentina, you can’t as you play into there strengths that way.
We crumbled! |
Well said. IP1Blue. Pretty much exactly as I saw it. We should have gone five across the midfield & tackled like terriers! Stifle any of their creativity. Very naive from our manager. Wonder how much longer he’ll last after that..?? |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:35 - Jul 17 with 506 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 21:15 - Jul 16 by Vic |
But didn’t the players go totally defensive before the substitutions - or was I watching a different match?
Yes he the subs could have been different, but it started so much earlier than them. |
It amazes me how many people don't watch the game closely.
The narrative that we went defensive after the subs and it's Tuchel's fault is just mad.
We collapsed immediately after our goal. Tuchel no doubt (and for the umpteenth time this tournament) brassed off that we instantly started worrying about being the player to screw up the lead.
Argentina had 3 good chances before Konsa came on on 72.
What the subs told you was Tuchel knew the players didn't have the belief or control to deal with the situation. We had to go defensive because we couldn't keep the ball.
This is psychological and the need to blame Tuchel just reveals that the real problem is players taking responsibility. It's why Jude's comments after Norway were poor.
Tuchel isn't daft. He's an elite coach. I think he cut a frustrated figure during the tournament because the players went against his direction.
That first half against Croatia. The fearful patterns.
Players are pampered at huge PL clubs. And are they as good as they think they are?
Argentina were ice cool. No panic. The opposite of us. [Post edited 17 Jul 8:41]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:02 - Jul 17 with 465 views | DJR |
This articulates well a point I made earlier in the thread.
https://www.theguardian.com/fo
The knockout games are often decided by those slack, disorderly periods late in the day, when the ability to control the tempo and the ball, the skillset of the elite self-governing midfielders becomes the greatest team asset. And England’s midfield still lacks the extreme possession-based craft that wins tight knockout games. They lost like this to Croatia in 2018, where Luka Modric just took the game away. The lost like this to Italy in 2021, when the ball just steadily disappeared into that calm blue cloud. International football rewards a cultural connectivity, a degree of intelligence and game awareness, off-the-cuff creativity. And the fact is England just don’t make the really high-end controlling midfielder whose game is entirely craft and intelligence.
And this is the real point here. Tuchel may have failed to reverse engineer a fix, to add a gloss from the top on a culture of haphazard development. But maybe this is a stupid idea in the first place. England have tried to game the system, to find a cheat code, to buy a very expensive high-end club manager, outsourced expertise.
The Football Association’s plan never really made much sense. Eighteen months to fix it all, and with a late start too because this saves a bit of money. This, right here, is the culture of short cuts, bodge jobs, confusion, lack of game intelligence, just expressed at an executive tier.
You can’t make a culture. There is no real English way of playing. There is a Premier League way, kind of. But what is that? The league is an international talent clearing house, rootless, acquisitive, cannibalistic, where very few of the key players in the best teams are home products.
What would England winning the World Cup even mean? What message would it express? This is how you win a World Cup? Neglect your coaching culture. Produce no managers. Create academy players who fulfil a brief but don’t really have a coherent style, in the way Thierry Henry has described the Spanish development system so eloquently. Then stick a highly paid internationalist club manager on top and hope it all makes sense when the pips squeak and a genius level player asks what are you actually made of?
Tuchel’s mistakes in defeat can be picked out, re-run, dissected. But he is also part of a much wider process, choices made, turns taken over many decades. England are much better and more coherent as a team. So much effort has gone into bridging that gap. It has narrowed. But this is still England, still out there being true to itself, still crashing in the same car. [Post edited 17 Jul 9:03]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:05 - Jul 17 with 449 views | DJR |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:35 - Jul 17 by jasondozzell |
It amazes me how many people don't watch the game closely.
The narrative that we went defensive after the subs and it's Tuchel's fault is just mad.
We collapsed immediately after our goal. Tuchel no doubt (and for the umpteenth time this tournament) brassed off that we instantly started worrying about being the player to screw up the lead.
Argentina had 3 good chances before Konsa came on on 72.
What the subs told you was Tuchel knew the players didn't have the belief or control to deal with the situation. We had to go defensive because we couldn't keep the ball.
This is psychological and the need to blame Tuchel just reveals that the real problem is players taking responsibility. It's why Jude's comments after Norway were poor.
Tuchel isn't daft. He's an elite coach. I think he cut a frustrated figure during the tournament because the players went against his direction.
That first half against Croatia. The fearful patterns.
Players are pampered at huge PL clubs. And are they as good as they think they are?
Argentina were ice cool. No panic. The opposite of us. [Post edited 17 Jul 8:41]
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This is Barney Ronay's take.
The real event here was not minutes 72-92. It was the thing Tuchel failed to respond to in that span, the key event in Atlanta, the complete unravelling of England’s players on the pitch after taking the lead 17 minutes earlier. At that moment England cowered, dropped deep, held on, saw the whole of the moon, felt the line in sight, victory against Argentina, and shrank from it.
Tuchel’s failure was not in failing to foresee this. His rant (translation: controlled explanation of failings) after the Norway game looks prescient now. He saw this coming. He could do nothing to prevent it. And so England lost as they always do at this stage. Fail again. Fail exactly the same way. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:06 - Jul 17 with 444 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:05 - Jul 17 by DJR |
This is Barney Ronay's take.
The real event here was not minutes 72-92. It was the thing Tuchel failed to respond to in that span, the key event in Atlanta, the complete unravelling of England’s players on the pitch after taking the lead 17 minutes earlier. At that moment England cowered, dropped deep, held on, saw the whole of the moon, felt the line in sight, victory against Argentina, and shrank from it.
Tuchel’s failure was not in failing to foresee this. His rant (translation: controlled explanation of failings) after the Norway game looks prescient now. He saw this coming. He could do nothing to prevent it. And so England lost as they always do at this stage. Fail again. Fail exactly the same way. |
Think that's spot on. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:12 - Jul 17 with 432 views | SWLondonBlue93 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 21:15 - Jul 16 by Vic |
But didn’t the players go totally defensive before the substitutions - or was I watching a different match?
Yes he the subs could have been different, but it started so much earlier than them. |
You are correct, which is why what happened in the second half ad break was so infuriating. Some people are pushing a narrative that Tuchel had no choice but to lean into the more defensive approach, which is patently untrue. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:22 - Jul 17 with 415 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:12 - Jul 17 by SWLondonBlue93 |
You are correct, which is why what happened in the second half ad break was so infuriating. Some people are pushing a narrative that Tuchel had no choice but to lean into the more defensive approach, which is patently untrue. |
Don't agree. We had gone. You could have put R9 and all the attacking talent in the world on at that point and they wouldn't have seen the ball. We couldn't get out. He did the only thing he could do at that point - try and shore us up.
Listen to his rant after Norway again. He was spot on but no one wanted to listen to it, not least the players. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:27 - Jul 17 with 411 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:05 - Jul 17 by DJR |
This is Barney Ronay's take.
The real event here was not minutes 72-92. It was the thing Tuchel failed to respond to in that span, the key event in Atlanta, the complete unravelling of England’s players on the pitch after taking the lead 17 minutes earlier. At that moment England cowered, dropped deep, held on, saw the whole of the moon, felt the line in sight, victory against Argentina, and shrank from it.
Tuchel’s failure was not in failing to foresee this. His rant (translation: controlled explanation of failings) after the Norway game looks prescient now. He saw this coming. He could do nothing to prevent it. And so England lost as they always do at this stage. Fail again. Fail exactly the same way. |
What do you think an extraordinarily well paid and experienced coach is there to do out of interest?
Without sounding like Roy Keane - that’s his job. To do what Gareth couldn’t do.
For example - people love to hate on Ashton but he has changed the entire culture of ITFC following a decade and a half of nonsense. It’s not easy this type of thing but thats why they get paid the big bucks. Ditto young Kieran.
Creating these big structural changes and shifts in mentality and attitude is what they are paid handsomely to do. And he failed miserably at that. [Post edited 17 Jul 9:31]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:32 - Jul 17 with 396 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:27 - Jul 17 by nrb1985 |
What do you think an extraordinarily well paid and experienced coach is there to do out of interest?
Without sounding like Roy Keane - that’s his job. To do what Gareth couldn’t do.
For example - people love to hate on Ashton but he has changed the entire culture of ITFC following a decade and a half of nonsense. It’s not easy this type of thing but thats why they get paid the big bucks. Ditto young Kieran.
Creating these big structural changes and shifts in mentality and attitude is what they are paid handsomely to do. And he failed miserably at that. [Post edited 17 Jul 9:31]
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If you think elite coaching is making a binary decision ('go for it' or 'drop and defend') then there's no helping you!
Do people really think a Champions League winning coach shrugged and pressed the 'let's just sit' button?
He'll say it was a failure and of course it is. But it's on the players. They should pin up Anthony Barry's half time interview from Croatia on the wall at St George's. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:35 - Jul 17 with 382 views | oldbeardy |
The players on the pitch after we scored (our only meaningful effort on goal all game?) caved and in doing so presented Tuchel with a choice. Like-for-like subs and go back to what had been working albeit against a by then more attacking Argentinian line up or do what he did. As an intelligent coach with a good team supporting him they will have discussed it and decided the defensive option provided the better chance of success. Quite an indictment of the players and their ability to exert any control I'd have thought. Like everyone else I was shouting at the TV at the time that we wouldn't be able to keep them out but actually I think we're just not good enough and Tuchel's choices and comments post Norway confirm it. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:37 - Jul 17 with 371 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Argentina were really struggling with our aggressive press and energy in the first half, hence they failed to threaten our goal. Backing off and sitting back as we did was borderline negligent, and embarrassing given the quality and value of players at his disposal.
I’d be on the fence of letting him learn from it and carry on but for his doubling down in the press. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:39 - Jul 17 with 357 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:32 - Jul 17 by jasondozzell |
If you think elite coaching is making a binary decision ('go for it' or 'drop and defend') then there's no helping you!
Do people really think a Champions League winning coach shrugged and pressed the 'let's just sit' button?
He'll say it was a failure and of course it is. But it's on the players. They should pin up Anthony Barry's half time interview from Croatia on the wall at St George's. |
Worth noting from the BBC and Athletic reporting today that the players don’t agree with you…the inference very firmly being that that’s exactly what Tuchel told them to do.
They’re probably all wrong too though and you’re right.
Have a lovely day. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:41 - Jul 17 with 353 views | SWLondonBlue93 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:22 - Jul 17 by jasondozzell |
Don't agree. We had gone. You could have put R9 and all the attacking talent in the world on at that point and they wouldn't have seen the ball. We couldn't get out. He did the only thing he could do at that point - try and shore us up.
Listen to his rant after Norway again. He was spot on but no one wanted to listen to it, not least the players. |
You've obviously decided that this is a binary issue and Tuchel can do no wrong, so this is a waste of time, but if you think putting six defenders on the pitch is the best way to see out a game then I don't know what to say. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:43 - Jul 17 with 351 views | DJR |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:27 - Jul 17 by nrb1985 |
What do you think an extraordinarily well paid and experienced coach is there to do out of interest?
Without sounding like Roy Keane - that’s his job. To do what Gareth couldn’t do.
For example - people love to hate on Ashton but he has changed the entire culture of ITFC following a decade and a half of nonsense. It’s not easy this type of thing but thats why they get paid the big bucks. Ditto young Kieran.
Creating these big structural changes and shifts in mentality and attitude is what they are paid handsomely to do. And he failed miserably at that. [Post edited 17 Jul 9:31]
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I think things are more deep-rooted than a change in coach. After all, Tuchel joins a list of foreign coaches who were meant to change things.
Did you see my earlier post which quoted Barney Roney who echoed the point I made earlier that English players are not great at retaining possession in a way that the top national teams are? [Post edited 17 Jul 9:47]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:48 - Jul 17 with 326 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:39 - Jul 17 by nrb1985 |
Worth noting from the BBC and Athletic reporting today that the players don’t agree with you…the inference very firmly being that that’s exactly what Tuchel told them to do.
They’re probably all wrong too though and you’re right.
Have a lovely day. |
Re the players - Mandy Rice Davies 😉 | | | |
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