| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador 07:54 - Aug 12 with 5300 views | StokieBlue |
Their plan is to take all foreign prisoners currently serving time and move them to El Salvador, one of the most brutal prison systems in the world:
https://www.independent.co.uk/
The policies would seem to be getting more deliberately headline catching in order to distract from the financial investigations at the top of the party. First it was ignoring international law with regards to France and now this.
SB [Post edited 12 Aug 9:17]
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:00 - Aug 12 with 837 views | Churchman |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 10:34 - Aug 12 by BarcaBlue |
If it's a total guess, how is there an obvious financial saving to be had? |
It’s a guess because I don’t know how much it would cost to deport somebody to El Salvador, but there surely has to be a financial reason to this beyond any political one. |  | | |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 11:01 - Aug 12 with 833 views | balcombeblue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 10:51 - Aug 12 by Cheltenham_Blue |
El Salvador seems an expensive way to deport people.
Surprised he hasn't suggested Gruinard Island. |
I thought this might have been a misspelling of Grauniad! Maybe a place to expel their readers (only joking...) |  | | |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:04 - Aug 12 with 826 views | jayessess |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 10:42 - Aug 12 by balcombeblue |
I'm confused. There are 10,000 foreign nationals is UK prisons. They are not UK citizens. Why is it racist to propose a policy to deport them? Can you please point out the racism? They don't form one homogenous race and I wouldn't propose deporting UK citizens.
As I regularly repeat, I don't vote reform, don't support Farage and won't in the future. |
Well, it is a discriminatory punishment structure administered according to nationality (one set of punishments for UK citizens, an additional punishment for non-citizens). National citizenship is a personal characteristic that is often connected to race, even if nationalities aren't in themselves races.
Since 1983 the British Nationality Act also explicitly racialises British citizenship, shifting the basis from place of birth to parental nationality (again if not a racial category, a racialised one in this context). Since the 2019 Supreme Court decision against Shamima Begum, the British state is also allowed to revoke the citizenship of UK citizens eligible for citizenship of another country, which, again, reinforces the extent to which UK citizenship can be a racialised category. |  |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:08 - Aug 12 with 804 views | positivity |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 10:59 - Aug 12 by balcombeblue |
I don't think he will be deporting anyone to El Salvador. The headline grab was actually being done by The Independent and the original post rather than Reform.
Put El Salvador to one side, as that wasn't the main thrust of the argument. A plan to deport foreign criminals would be in line with a significant number of other countries. Also, many countries either rent prison space abroad or are considering doing so. |
where will he be deporting us citizens to, then? will trump roll over and let this happen?
it's an unworkable, nonsense policy to deflect from his racism and corruption |  |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:09 - Aug 12 with 800 views | positivity |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:00 - Aug 12 by Churchman |
It’s a guess because I don’t know how much it would cost to deport somebody to El Salvador, but there surely has to be a financial reason to this beyond any political one. |
since when have reform policies been financially literate? it's pure culture war politics and deflection | |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 11:10 - Aug 12 with 802 views | Guthrum |
Reform won't actually do any of those things, should they ever form a government. Largely down to practicability.
In any case, they'll be too busy deregulating the City, removing environmental/health & safety/workers rights legislation to save costs for business owners and cutting all public services so they can dismantle the tax system for the rich (and creating further plundering opportunities from privatisation). |  |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:13 - Aug 12 with 786 views | balcombeblue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:04 - Aug 12 by jayessess |
Well, it is a discriminatory punishment structure administered according to nationality (one set of punishments for UK citizens, an additional punishment for non-citizens). National citizenship is a personal characteristic that is often connected to race, even if nationalities aren't in themselves races.
Since 1983 the British Nationality Act also explicitly racialises British citizenship, shifting the basis from place of birth to parental nationality (again if not a racial category, a racialised one in this context). Since the 2019 Supreme Court decision against Shamima Begum, the British state is also allowed to revoke the citizenship of UK citizens eligible for citizenship of another country, which, again, reinforces the extent to which UK citizenship can be a racialised category. |
Yes, it's discriminatory by definition, but not on the basis of race. Quite the opposite I would say in that it ignores race completely. Being a British citizen is not, quite rightly, defined by race.
Is there any specific reason to oppose the idea of deporting dangerous criminals at the end of their sentences? Or even at the start of them like Australia attempts to do?
I think revoking British citizenship is a dangerous slope. I wouldn't support that. | | | |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 11:19 - Aug 12 with 774 views | lazyblue |
Not saying deport to El Salvador but something has to be done with the amount of foreign criminals in UK and gets worse everyday so until more much needed prisons are built then we are going to continue to release unwanted prisoners early back in to society. | | | |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 11:26 - Aug 12 with 754 views | positivity |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 11:19 - Aug 12 by lazyblue |
Not saying deport to El Salvador but something has to be done with the amount of foreign criminals in UK and gets worse everyday so until more much needed prisons are built then we are going to continue to release unwanted prisoners early back in to society. |
it's not just (or primarily) foreign criminals that are clogging up the prison system.
you're right about the need to invest in prisons (and alternatives), something that was never prioritised in the austerity years. it's underway now, but will take a while to come online | |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:30 - Aug 12 with 743 views | jayessess |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:13 - Aug 12 by balcombeblue |
Yes, it's discriminatory by definition, but not on the basis of race. Quite the opposite I would say in that it ignores race completely. Being a British citizen is not, quite rightly, defined by race.
Is there any specific reason to oppose the idea of deporting dangerous criminals at the end of their sentences? Or even at the start of them like Australia attempts to do?
I think revoking British citizenship is a dangerous slope. I wouldn't support that. |
Well, it does run counter to the idea that sentences are just punishments for the particular crime committed, in that you've added an additional punishment according to the citizenship status of the perpetrator.
(It's also a bit of a beggar-thy-neighbour situation. Maybe returning a dangerous Canadian criminal to Canada makes us a little safer but it would make Canada a little less safe, so I'm not sure there's much benefit for humanity in general here).
Categories can be shaped by race (racialised) without being racial categories. If you proposed deporting every hindu, buddhist and muslim from Britain, I think we'd definitely recognise that as something that was about race rather than religion, though those aren't racial categories and those religions have adherents of all races.
Or, for instance, if you proposed a different schedule of punishments for people with dreadlocks that too could be racially discriminatory, though ostensibly race blind. | |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 11:32 - Aug 12 with 748 views | Guthrum |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 11:19 - Aug 12 by lazyblue |
Not saying deport to El Salvador but something has to be done with the amount of foreign criminals in UK and gets worse everyday so until more much needed prisons are built then we are going to continue to release unwanted prisoners early back in to society. |
Probably something needs to be done about those consuming vast quantities of cocaine in the UK, thus supporting and funding networks of criminal gangs, smugglers and dealers who are contributing a large number of the prisoners (including those of foreign origin) now overfilling the country's prisons. | |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:40 - Aug 12 with 710 views | balcombeblue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:30 - Aug 12 by jayessess |
Well, it does run counter to the idea that sentences are just punishments for the particular crime committed, in that you've added an additional punishment according to the citizenship status of the perpetrator.
(It's also a bit of a beggar-thy-neighbour situation. Maybe returning a dangerous Canadian criminal to Canada makes us a little safer but it would make Canada a little less safe, so I'm not sure there's much benefit for humanity in general here).
Categories can be shaped by race (racialised) without being racial categories. If you proposed deporting every hindu, buddhist and muslim from Britain, I think we'd definitely recognise that as something that was about race rather than religion, though those aren't racial categories and those religions have adherents of all races.
Or, for instance, if you proposed a different schedule of punishments for people with dreadlocks that too could be racially discriminatory, though ostensibly race blind. |
I agree with the last couple of paragraphs, but nobody has proposed this.
I am happy with the idea of the extra punishment. I'm not a globalist and trust in the nation state being a sensible way of protecting our citizens. | | | |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:40 - Aug 12 with 711 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 10:42 - Aug 12 by balcombeblue |
I'm confused. There are 10,000 foreign nationals is UK prisons. They are not UK citizens. Why is it racist to propose a policy to deport them? Can you please point out the racism? They don't form one homogenous race and I wouldn't propose deporting UK citizens.
As I regularly repeat, I don't vote reform, don't support Farage and won't in the future. |
As far as I have read "only" about 6000 of those foreign national prisoners are eligible for deportation under the current rules/process.
I don't disagree that early deportation of those seems a logical step but for all I know the existing process to undertake such deportations is already in progress (in which case I suspect that in common with many such processes it is complex, time-consuming and almost certainly expensive). |  |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:45 - Aug 12 with 692 views | balcombeblue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:40 - Aug 12 by You_Bloo_Right |
As far as I have read "only" about 6000 of those foreign national prisoners are eligible for deportation under the current rules/process.
I don't disagree that early deportation of those seems a logical step but for all I know the existing process to undertake such deportations is already in progress (in which case I suspect that in common with many such processes it is complex, time-consuming and almost certainly expensive). |
I think we are coming to some agreement that this is a complex issue to solve, but that action is definitely needed. I don't really support the policy on the grounds of practicability, but it is still nothing like the headline that the OP suggests | | | |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:47 - Aug 12 with 690 views | positivity |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:45 - Aug 12 by balcombeblue |
I think we are coming to some agreement that this is a complex issue to solve, but that action is definitely needed. I don't really support the policy on the grounds of practicability, but it is still nothing like the headline that the OP suggests |
so, basically a nonsense policy to divert attention from nigel's racism and corruption then? thought so! | |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 11:48 - Aug 12 with 695 views | Plums |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to El Salvador on 11:32 - Aug 12 by Guthrum |
Probably something needs to be done about those consuming vast quantities of cocaine in the UK, thus supporting and funding networks of criminal gangs, smugglers and dealers who are contributing a large number of the prisoners (including those of foreign origin) now overfilling the country's prisons. |
This. This and this again.
Until the correlation is made between putting marching powder up your nose and your granny being mugged or knocked over by an illegal ebike delivering the stuff along with loads of other petty crime we're not going to fix much of this.
Yes lads, that queue at the bogs at away games is funding large chunks of the disintegration of society your mum and dad are complaining about and will sell your future down the river for - because Moscow Nige says he can fix it by getting rid of brown people. |  |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:03 - Aug 12 with 636 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:45 - Aug 12 by balcombeblue |
I think we are coming to some agreement that this is a complex issue to solve, but that action is definitely needed. I don't really support the policy on the grounds of practicability, but it is still nothing like the headline that the OP suggests |
Oh the OP has somewhat over-simplified the stated Reform position but in their defence it was Farage who used El Salvador as a prime example. I have no interest in the OP's motivation for such. What has interested me is the wider debate the post has engendered.
There are a number of issues which have caused prisons to be "over populated" (changing sentencing guidelines, the use of remand, the decimation of the judicial system, insufficient prison spaces, social/societal problems increasing criminality?, etc) many of which have been highlighted in the thread and as you say there is much commonality regarding the need to address these.
Resolving many of those will take time which it seems, as ever, is the one option the government does not have - hence I assume the proposed "early release" scheme which, whatever way you cut it, seems fraught with difficulty. | |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:11 - Aug 12 with 621 views | eireblue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:45 - Aug 12 by balcombeblue |
I think we are coming to some agreement that this is a complex issue to solve, but that action is definitely needed. I don't really support the policy on the grounds of practicability, but it is still nothing like the headline that the OP suggests |
I think people in Reform would want to deport foreign criminals to El Salvador.
Why check it out if thats what you want to do. They may not end up doing it, they may choose another country, but seems quite clear that would be happy to do that.
Anyhoo, the recent case about the people being allowed early release.
People quite rightly wan them to stay in prison.
Deporting a foreign criminal, doesn’t mean they get to serve their full term in a prison.
It is complex. If a foreign person, say the people that poisoned UK citizens, had been caught and convicted, would you send them back to Russia.
If an Iranian, acting under the orders of Iran, committed a terrorist act, would we send them back to Iran.
Would you want some that violently assaulted gay people in the UK, to be allowed back and walk free in another country.
I think OP is general correct, Reform would want to deport foreign criminals to a Central American prison if they possible could.
Trying to infer that Reform have some nuanced position on this topic is nonsense. [Post edited 12 Aug 12:13]
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:11 - Aug 12 with 619 views | balcombeblue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:03 - Aug 12 by You_Bloo_Right |
Oh the OP has somewhat over-simplified the stated Reform position but in their defence it was Farage who used El Salvador as a prime example. I have no interest in the OP's motivation for such. What has interested me is the wider debate the post has engendered.
There are a number of issues which have caused prisons to be "over populated" (changing sentencing guidelines, the use of remand, the decimation of the judicial system, insufficient prison spaces, social/societal problems increasing criminality?, etc) many of which have been highlighted in the thread and as you say there is much commonality regarding the need to address these.
Resolving many of those will take time which it seems, as ever, is the one option the government does not have - hence I assume the proposed "early release" scheme which, whatever way you cut it, seems fraught with difficulty. |
Absolutely, and for this reason it was a good thread to start. | | | |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:46 - Aug 12 with 564 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:13 - Aug 12 by balcombeblue |
Yes, it's discriminatory by definition, but not on the basis of race. Quite the opposite I would say in that it ignores race completely. Being a British citizen is not, quite rightly, defined by race.
Is there any specific reason to oppose the idea of deporting dangerous criminals at the end of their sentences? Or even at the start of them like Australia attempts to do?
I think revoking British citizenship is a dangerous slope. I wouldn't support that. |
Rights would be one reason. It’s a slippery slope outsourcing justice. What happens when someone is tortured or killed by a brutal regime? Imagine you had a foreign partner who’d been found guilty of a crime and deported and then tortured and/or killed? Would you be happy? Who would listen to any grievances you’d have? How could you argue they’d been mistreated by the state if our official position is to absolve the UK of responsibility for their care?
It’s a hypothetical question for the UK thankfully and I doubt Reform would be able to do it (although leaving the ECHR could pave the way). But it does happen elsewhere as you say, and not always with good results. El Salvador is notorious for its brutal prison network.
My own view is we need to be better than threatening punishment beatings for cheap political point scoring. |  |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:56 - Aug 12 with 528 views | balcombeblue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:46 - Aug 12 by Swansea_Blue |
Rights would be one reason. It’s a slippery slope outsourcing justice. What happens when someone is tortured or killed by a brutal regime? Imagine you had a foreign partner who’d been found guilty of a crime and deported and then tortured and/or killed? Would you be happy? Who would listen to any grievances you’d have? How could you argue they’d been mistreated by the state if our official position is to absolve the UK of responsibility for their care?
It’s a hypothetical question for the UK thankfully and I doubt Reform would be able to do it (although leaving the ECHR could pave the way). But it does happen elsewhere as you say, and not always with good results. El Salvador is notorious for its brutal prison network.
My own view is we need to be better than threatening punishment beatings for cheap political point scoring. |
I can definitely agree on your last point!
I wouldn’t be too happy with the torturing or killing of course, but it is an interesting thought experiment on who is actually responsible for this? Is it the UK or the torturers? The other way to turn it around is if harm was done to you or others close to you by someone who is not a UK corizen who we didn’t deport? It’s all round tricky territory.
I suspect you are slightly more sympathetic to complying with international law than I am, but I am trying! It just goes against my nature | | | |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:59 - Aug 12 with 517 views | Churchman |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 11:09 - Aug 12 by positivity |
since when have reform policies been financially literate? it's pure culture war politics and deflection |
According to the BBC, ‘Other countries have pursued similar arrangements - in 2021, Denmark agreed to pay Kosovo an annual fee of £12.8m for an initial five-year period to rent 300 of their prison spaces.’
This equates to £8,333 a year per prisoner. If this is anywhere near correct, that’s cheaper than £60,000 a year it costs to keep criminals here, assuming that’s ’all In’ costs.
I’d be interested in what the true maths are. | | | |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 13:03 - Aug 12 with 496 views | balcombeblue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:59 - Aug 12 by Churchman |
According to the BBC, ‘Other countries have pursued similar arrangements - in 2021, Denmark agreed to pay Kosovo an annual fee of £12.8m for an initial five-year period to rent 300 of their prison spaces.’
This equates to £8,333 a year per prisoner. If this is anywhere near correct, that’s cheaper than £60,000 a year it costs to keep criminals here, assuming that’s ’all In’ costs.
I’d be interested in what the true maths are. |
Yes. It’s far from a new idea of policy. The main gripe appears to be the mentioning of El Salvador. This was for headline grabbing reasons. Something Labour would never do…….
I think various governments have looked at a similar policy over the last decade. Building prison spaces is notoriously difficult as nobody wants them in their backyard | | | |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 14:16 - Aug 12 with 400 views | positivity |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:59 - Aug 12 by Churchman |
According to the BBC, ‘Other countries have pursued similar arrangements - in 2021, Denmark agreed to pay Kosovo an annual fee of £12.8m for an initial five-year period to rent 300 of their prison spaces.’
This equates to £8,333 a year per prisoner. If this is anywhere near correct, that’s cheaper than £60,000 a year it costs to keep criminals here, assuming that’s ’all In’ costs.
I’d be interested in what the true maths are. |
given that none have been sent so far and there is likely to be legal appeals, i don't think this is a solution for an urgent problem.
how much per immigrant did the rwanda "scheme" cost? likely to be a similar waste of money
if it's going to take several years and vast amounts of money, then you've got time to create british prisons, employing people in britain to build and staff it | |
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| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 14:18 - Aug 12 with 398 views | BarcaBlue |
| Reform want to deport all foreign prisoners to San Salvador on 12:59 - Aug 12 by Churchman |
According to the BBC, ‘Other countries have pursued similar arrangements - in 2021, Denmark agreed to pay Kosovo an annual fee of £12.8m for an initial five-year period to rent 300 of their prison spaces.’
This equates to £8,333 a year per prisoner. If this is anywhere near correct, that’s cheaper than £60,000 a year it costs to keep criminals here, assuming that’s ’all In’ costs.
I’d be interested in what the true maths are. |
Five years later, how many prisoners have been sent to Kosovo?
How much has been spent on upgrading prisons there, admin and legal fees and then dividing that by the number of people deported.
Your figures are far too simplistic.
I just had a quick look and can't find any examples of prisoners moved to Kosovo but plenty of headlines talking about the policy and using it as an example of what could be done in other countries. |  | | |
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