| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? 09:34 - Sep 7 with 5290 views | Backtoblue78A |
Walton played almost 40 games last season, looking largely solid and had a good understanding with his defenders.
We now revert to a strategically poor replacement who doesn't instill any sense of confidence. |  | | |  |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:55 - Sep 7 | JammyDodgerrr |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:49 - Sep 7 by Guthrum |
I don't think he was expecting Greaves to make it back in time to cover. Thus he was caught neither forward nor back when the defender tried to intervene, inadvertantly leaving Izak an open (if difficult) route to the goal. [Post edited 7 Sep 11:49]
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Yeah, this is how i read it. He definitely didn't think he would make it and then both of them got caught in the indecision - and it has to be said that Isak does really well to spin them a couple of times and then find the space. |  |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:56 - Sep 7 | homer_123 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 09:53 - Sep 7 by Swansea_Blue |
How is Scherpen a strategically poor replacement? |
It's simply not the same as the Schengen agreement - a poor substitute. |  |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:57 - Sep 7 | bluelady |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:36 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
Absolutely should have retreated. He was never going to get there. Maybe might have vs slower Belgium league strikers, but not Izak in the Prem. We cannot have a project in goal in the Premier League. We should have stuck with Walton. But if we were going to jettison him, it should have been a steady, Prem-experienced GK capable of stringing 7/10s.
Our entire new "sign top-league experience" transfer strategy will be undone if we've signed a dodgy keeper from a minnow league. I can't believe how Scherpen fitted the profile we otherwise signed this summer. [Post edited 7 Sep 11:40]
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Maybe you should be either managing town or be part of the recruitment team as you clearly have far more experience and knowledge than those insitu....... |  | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:59 - Sep 7 | homer_123 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:54 - Sep 7 by Guthrum |
Distribution, probably. All goalkeepers are a compromise between shot stopping and providing a base for playing out.
Scherpen is not rubbish, he was fine in the Sunderland game. Just made a couple of punished mistakes against top teams.
His very long and accurate throws may prove important in launching attacks as the season progresses. |
It's the same argument we see around strikers. Under both KM and GON it is clearly evident that the lone strikers role is much, much more than scoring goals. Not to say scoring goals isn't important but their role is pivotal in setting the press, winning the ball back high, linking the midfield and the forward line, bringing others in.
The GK is no different. Saving shots is important but GON (and KM) wanted more than just that - they need the keeper to be an 11th outfield player. Someone that can ping a pass or a throw, start a quick counter attack or offer themselves for a pass. | |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:07 - Sep 7 | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:57 - Sep 7 by bluelady |
Maybe you should be either managing town or be part of the recruitment team as you clearly have far more experience and knowledge than those insitu....... |
The old "all fans opinions are worthless" routine. Really? It's a wonder how the football manager position isn't a job for life considering their preternatural superpowers. [Post edited 7 Sep 12:10]
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| How do some of our fans manage to judge players so quickly? on 12:09 - Sep 7 | Vic |
We've seen Sherpen in 3 games - THREE games! He did OK on the first (we won), he did OK v 'Pool, apart from one big mistake in positioning. Can;t remember v United, but I'm not sure he was massively responsible for any of their goals.
THREE games and some are judging him as a 'strategically poor replacement!' Do we really, honestly, think that the recruitment team didn't analyse everything about him before we signed him? Plus, those who've watched in him regularly in Holland nearly all waxed lyrical about him.
I'll stop there because this criticism of players who have played less than a handful of games does my head! |  |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:11 - Sep 7 | jayessess |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:30 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
You wang on about shot-stopping, but it far from the be all and end all. Mistakes leading to a goal is more all-encompassing. Keepers can also flap crosses, pass to strikers, can be dispossessed, and come kamikazee off their line. Shot stopping % captures none of those mistakes. Mistakes leading to goal does. I've already said, I'm not too worried about Scherpen flapping Liv's first. It's the other, more fundamental mistakes that concern me. |
I'm "wanging on" about shot stopping because it's the fundamental skill of a goalkeeper? It's not everything but if you don't stop shots they go in the goal.
You want to make the case that there's all sorts of intangible things that make Walton a better goalkeeper than Scherpen or Walton, no worries, it's all subjective. Statistically though? Think the case is extremely weak and errors leading to goals is a relatively marginal aspect of goalkeeping and an extremely imprecise metric (so much so that Scherpen is still technically on 0!). |  |
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| How do some of our fans manage to judge players so quickly? on 12:18 - Sep 7 | grow_our_own |
| How do some of our fans manage to judge players so quickly? on 12:09 - Sep 7 by Vic |
We've seen Sherpen in 3 games - THREE games! He did OK on the first (we won), he did OK v 'Pool, apart from one big mistake in positioning. Can;t remember v United, but I'm not sure he was massively responsible for any of their goals.
THREE games and some are judging him as a 'strategically poor replacement!' Do we really, honestly, think that the recruitment team didn't analyse everything about him before we signed him? Plus, those who've watched in him regularly in Holland nearly all waxed lyrical about him.
I'll stop there because this criticism of players who have played less than a handful of games does my head! |
Warning signs were there in pre-season. " Scherpen almost gifted the Spanish side a goal when he dallied on the ball on his penalty spot", "Scherpen came out of his box to clear but realised he wasn’t going to get to it, leaving the goal open"
 Ipswich Town 3-0 Rayo Vallecano - Match Report 8th Aug 2026 17:02Two goals from Leif Davis and his first for the club from Emersonn, all before half-time, saw the Blues to a 3-0 victory over La Liga Rayo Vallecano at Portman Road in their penultimate friendly of the summer. Davis netted in the 12th and 17th minutes, before the Brazilian bagged his first for the club on 74.  41
This has continued into the Prem. Like I said, it's parts of his game other than shot-stopping (despite Liv's first) that I'm most worried about. [Post edited 7 Sep 12:19]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:20 - Sep 7 | homer_123 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:31 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
Top GKs make fewer mistakes than players in other positions. They gun for consistent 7/10 performances and being predictable for the CBs. They are expert on sensing danger and judging optimum position. Scherpen's shipped three goals in two games. I'm not too worried about the near post Liv first. All keepers occasionally miss a save. I'm worried about the two off-his-line mistakes. He was either physically two slow, or had poor judgement on through balls. Either way, that's much more difficult to fix.
Bring back Walton. He earned another shot at the Prem through his form last season. |
Hmm. I don't think that is an accurate assessment at all.
GKs do not necessarily make fewer mistakes relative to their volume of actions; they simply have drastically lower exposure to risk.
A central midfielder or fullback, for example, touches the ball 70 to 100 times a game, often under intense pressure. A keeper maybe 25 to 40 times, usually with time and space.
Now, if a forward misplaces 15 passes or fails to track a runner 3 times a game, it is rarely registered as a definitive 'mistake' because a defender bails them out. When a goalkeeper makes a mistake, it almost always registers on the scoreboard.
If you look at the stats, top CBs often cross-contaminate the data by registering more official 'errors leading to goals' than keepers because they contest far more high-stakes duels in the box.
There's a final point I'd make as well. The 7/10 mantra is a very 90's and early 00's. Keepers these days are actively 'asked' and 'coached' to take risks and significant ones at that, either to encourage a press or break one. | |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:29 - Sep 7 | Backtoblue78A |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 09:48 - Sep 7 by PMac13 |
100% this....
Fed up with reading about how terrible he is etc etc based on three games two of which were against 2 of the big 6. He came with a good pedigree and yes he's made few mistakes but so have the defence. Maybe we get behind him and perhaps try and help him get his confidence up with his new team?? |
He's one error away from a change of keeper in my opinion. I'd start Walton against Arsenal irrespective of what happens at the weekend, because we have a squad of players for a reason. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:33 - Sep 7 | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:11 - Sep 7 by jayessess |
I'm "wanging on" about shot stopping because it's the fundamental skill of a goalkeeper? It's not everything but if you don't stop shots they go in the goal.
You want to make the case that there's all sorts of intangible things that make Walton a better goalkeeper than Scherpen or Walton, no worries, it's all subjective. Statistically though? Think the case is extremely weak and errors leading to goals is a relatively marginal aspect of goalkeeping and an extremely imprecise metric (so much so that Scherpen is still technically on 0!). |
"shot stopping because it's the fundamental skill of a goalkeeper?" - of course it is fundamental. Agreed. But so is coming off line, cross-management, short-passing, and avoiding being caught in possession. None of these things is captured by shot-stopping %. This topic is is about the wider GK mistakes leading to goals, which you're mysteriously refusing to judge them on.
I get that I'm in the minority here right now. I hope I'm wrong and if GON refuses to reinstate Walton, then Scherpen stops leaking so many goals. But I've seen this story play out with us so many times and it feels like groundhog day. [Post edited 7 Sep 12:44]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:36 - Sep 7 | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:20 - Sep 7 by homer_123 |
Hmm. I don't think that is an accurate assessment at all.
GKs do not necessarily make fewer mistakes relative to their volume of actions; they simply have drastically lower exposure to risk.
A central midfielder or fullback, for example, touches the ball 70 to 100 times a game, often under intense pressure. A keeper maybe 25 to 40 times, usually with time and space.
Now, if a forward misplaces 15 passes or fails to track a runner 3 times a game, it is rarely registered as a definitive 'mistake' because a defender bails them out. When a goalkeeper makes a mistake, it almost always registers on the scoreboard.
If you look at the stats, top CBs often cross-contaminate the data by registering more official 'errors leading to goals' than keepers because they contest far more high-stakes duels in the box.
There's a final point I'd make as well. The 7/10 mantra is a very 90's and early 00's. Keepers these days are actively 'asked' and 'coached' to take risks and significant ones at that, either to encourage a press or break one. |
"[GKs] have drastically lower exposure to risk." [Post edited 7 Sep 12:42]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:37 - Sep 7 | homer_123 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:36 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
"[GKs] have drastically lower exposure to risk." [Post edited 7 Sep 12:42]
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Elaborate? | |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:45 - Sep 7 | jayessess |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:33 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
"shot stopping because it's the fundamental skill of a goalkeeper?" - of course it is fundamental. Agreed. But so is coming off line, cross-management, short-passing, and avoiding being caught in possession. None of these things is captured by shot-stopping %. This topic is is about the wider GK mistakes leading to goals, which you're mysteriously refusing to judge them on.
I get that I'm in the minority here right now. I hope I'm wrong and if GON refuses to reinstate Walton, then Scherpen stops leaking so many goals. But I've seen this story play out with us so many times and it feels like groundhog day. [Post edited 7 Sep 12:44]
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There's nothing mysterious about it. I am outright saying something quite straightforward.
It is better, statistically, to have a goalkeeper who makes lots of saves but makes errors compared to one who makes no errors but not many saves.
In any way you want to measure it we were defensively better with Muric in goal than we were with either Walton or Palmer.
We conceded less often with Muric in goal. We allowed fewer shots and he saved more of the shots we did allow. He claimed crosses more regularly, he swept up through balls more regularly than Walton. Whatever he did, it made us, statistically, a better defensive team than his successors.
It is a perfectly valid argument to say all these statistics are misleading and don't tell the full story. That in an intangible sense, having a mediocre shot stopper who doesn't make direct errors gives a sense of security to the back line that is worth more than any of the things I have listed above and the deterioration of our defensive record post-Muric is about other intangible things. But that isn't an argument about statistics, it's one about subjective impressions! [Post edited 7 Sep 12:46]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:56 - Sep 7 | WD19 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 09:53 - Sep 7 by Backtoblue78A |
It's utter nonsense to suggest he shouldn't be making any particular save because it's against Liverpool or United! His positioning and biscuit-wrists remain the same, whether we're playing against Liverpool or the Dog and Duck. |
Sorry, I thought you were a budgie. Turns out I misjudged and you are just an attention seeking kunt. My mistake and apologies. |  | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 13:12 - Sep 7 | tractor_lady |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:07 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
The old "all fans opinions are worthless" routine. Really? It's a wonder how the football manager position isn't a job for life considering their preternatural superpowers. [Post edited 7 Sep 12:10]
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Not all fans just those who wouldn't know a positive thought if it slapped them in the face :-) | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 13:30 - Sep 7 | longtimefan |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:32 - Sep 7 by trncbluearmy |
The OP is correct.
Happy to give Scherpen some time but time is not our friend in this league it can slip away very quickly to an unattainable postion.
We do seem to have purchased a series of keepers, at great expense, who were not up to the job or needed easing in.
The one keeper we have who is Prem ready always seems to get injured at the worst possible moment.
The whole goalkeeper situ. needs a good look at. [Post edited 7 Sep 10:33]
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"We do seem to have purchased a series of keepers, at great expense, who were not up to the job or needed easing in."
"great expense" isn't true though is it? Our last 4 goalkeeper purchase fees probably add up in total to less than Coventry have paid for Rushworth and two thirds of what Leeds have paid for Trafford | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 13:58 - Sep 7 | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:45 - Sep 7 by jayessess |
There's nothing mysterious about it. I am outright saying something quite straightforward.
It is better, statistically, to have a goalkeeper who makes lots of saves but makes errors compared to one who makes no errors but not many saves.
In any way you want to measure it we were defensively better with Muric in goal than we were with either Walton or Palmer.
We conceded less often with Muric in goal. We allowed fewer shots and he saved more of the shots we did allow. He claimed crosses more regularly, he swept up through balls more regularly than Walton. Whatever he did, it made us, statistically, a better defensive team than his successors.
It is a perfectly valid argument to say all these statistics are misleading and don't tell the full story. That in an intangible sense, having a mediocre shot stopper who doesn't make direct errors gives a sense of security to the back line that is worth more than any of the things I have listed above and the deterioration of our defensive record post-Muric is about other intangible things. But that isn't an argument about statistics, it's one about subjective impressions! [Post edited 7 Sep 12:46]
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Problem is, fans & most pundits see a missed save as a mistake, and stats don't. I agree with you that stats are limited. Sky Sports and most people on this site agree that Scherpen should have saved the hand-high, near-post shot and shouldn't have been in no-mans-land on Friday night for the two goals. Same when he came off his line and got lobbed at Utd. Yet stats say he's made zero mistakes leading to goals this season. Likewise I remember Muric making many more than five mistakes leading to goals in 2024/5. I don't know how they're defining "mistake" but I suspect it's very tight. I believe what I see with my eyes. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 15:26 - Sep 7 | bsw72 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:16 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
Follow the money. Belgium is 26th richest league in the world. Championship is 14th:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Champ clubs have almost double the revenue. Who do you think is capable of attracting the better players? I don't know how Opta judges its table. If it's by inter-league results, then Belgium teams don't progress far in Europe, and Championship clubs don't play there at all. |
By revenue?!?
Opta ranks football leagues by first giving over 15,000 individual clubs worldwide a dynamic 0 to 100 power score based on their match results and underlying performance data. It then determines each league's final position by calculating the mathematical average score of every single team competing within that division. |  | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 15:47 - Sep 7 | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 15:26 - Sep 7 by bsw72 |
By revenue?!?
Opta ranks football leagues by first giving over 15,000 individual clubs worldwide a dynamic 0 to 100 power score based on their match results and underlying performance data. It then determines each league's final position by calculating the mathematical average score of every single team competing within that division. |
Ah it's "performance data". Crystal clear now. Thanks.
I guess you can compare Walton's Championship with Scherpen's Belgian league on non-relative physical stats like distance run and top-speed, but not so much other stats. Eg I don't follow how one having more xG means it's a higher standard. Surely xG works both ways: attack beating defence also means defence is inferior to attack. Speaks nothing about whether one league is a higher standard. And just bc one set of keepers face more xG doesn't mean they're any more prepped for a much higher quality of attack. If it did then the keeper in the worst pub Sunday team in Britain, who faces extremely high xG should be Prem quality. [Post edited 7 Sep 15:56]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 15:55 - Sep 7 | mrfixit426 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:33 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
"shot stopping because it's the fundamental skill of a goalkeeper?" - of course it is fundamental. Agreed. But so is coming off line, cross-management, short-passing, and avoiding being caught in possession. None of these things is captured by shot-stopping %. This topic is is about the wider GK mistakes leading to goals, which you're mysteriously refusing to judge them on.
I get that I'm in the minority here right now. I hope I'm wrong and if GON refuses to reinstate Walton, then Scherpen stops leaking so many goals. But I've seen this story play out with us so many times and it feels like groundhog day. [Post edited 7 Sep 12:44]
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"So many times"
LOL |  | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 16:11 - Sep 7 | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 15:55 - Sep 7 by mrfixit426 |
"So many times"
LOL |
2/2 so far. Feels like many. If Scherpen is third time, will that be many? Four?
Just feels like we as a club panic and feel the need to experiment with a moon-shot project super-keeper every time we're promoted. Sereni was our record signing at £4.5m in 2001, which stood for 23 years until we signed Hutchinson in 2024. We just need a steady pair of hands, not 10/10, 4/10, 4/10, 4/10, 10/10. [Post edited 7 Sep 17:00]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 16:20 - Sep 7 | mrfixit426 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 16:11 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
2/2 so far. Feels like many. If Scherpen is third time, will that be many? Four?
Just feels like we as a club panic and feel the need to experiment with a moon-shot project super-keeper every time we're promoted. Sereni was our record signing at £4.5m in 2001, which stood for 23 years until we signed Hutchinson in 2024. We just need a steady pair of hands, not 10/10, 4/10, 4/10, 4/10, 10/10. [Post edited 7 Sep 17:00]
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Actually it's once so far. And as has been pointed out to you earlier, Muric was not as bad as you're making out, certainly in terms of underlying stats. Don't reply to that because I don't value your opinion at all.
So, once.
We're three games in this season. Every argument you've put forward has been dismissed using actual facts. Stop embarrassing yourself.
"So many times."
LOL 😂 | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 16:21 - Sep 7 | farkenhell |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 12:33 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
"shot stopping because it's the fundamental skill of a goalkeeper?" - of course it is fundamental. Agreed. But so is coming off line, cross-management, short-passing, and avoiding being caught in possession. None of these things is captured by shot-stopping %. This topic is is about the wider GK mistakes leading to goals, which you're mysteriously refusing to judge them on.
I get that I'm in the minority here right now. I hope I'm wrong and if GON refuses to reinstate Walton, then Scherpen stops leaking so many goals. But I've seen this story play out with us so many times and it feels like groundhog day. [Post edited 7 Sep 12:44]
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I'd go further and say that shot stopping is the single most important technique of a goalkeeper.
All of the other aspects that you mention (coming off line, cross-management, short passing, avoiding being caught in possession etc, etc) are less important. Taken to an extreme, a goalkeeper could stay rooted to the line, flap at every cross, persistently give the ball away, but at the end of the day, if he recovers and saves the shot, his team don't concede a goal. Conversely, he could be excellent at those other techniques, but if he's poor at shot stopping, then the team will inevitably end up losing more games than it wins.
For example, Nick Pope is not renowned for his ability on crosses or for his footwork, however he more than makes up for that with his very good shot stopping. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 16:28 - Sep 7 | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 16:21 - Sep 7 by farkenhell |
I'd go further and say that shot stopping is the single most important technique of a goalkeeper.
All of the other aspects that you mention (coming off line, cross-management, short passing, avoiding being caught in possession etc, etc) are less important. Taken to an extreme, a goalkeeper could stay rooted to the line, flap at every cross, persistently give the ball away, but at the end of the day, if he recovers and saves the shot, his team don't concede a goal. Conversely, he could be excellent at those other techniques, but if he's poor at shot stopping, then the team will inevitably end up losing more games than it wins.
For example, Nick Pope is not renowned for his ability on crosses or for his footwork, however he more than makes up for that with his very good shot stopping. |
But if you've come off your line and failed to win the ball, you're not in goal to save a shot! Did you feel that ability to come-off-line was secondary after Liverpool's second and Man Utd's fifth?
Enough. Like I say, hope you lot are right and Scherpen comes good. | | | |
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