| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? 09:34 - Sep 7 with 3870 views | Backtoblue78A |
Walton played almost 40 games last season, looking largely solid and had a good understanding with his defenders.
We now revert to a strategically poor replacement who doesn't instill any sense of confidence. |  | | |  |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:30 - Sep 7 with 481 views | DavoIPB |
Goal keeper is least of our worries. He has made a few mistakes but every keeper does. A bigger problem is our defence. Especially how Liverpool keeper was able to play a diagonal call for the left winger to control unchallenged on the edge of our box. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:31 - Sep 7 with 490 views | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:21 - Sep 7 by baxterbasics |
Players all over the pitch make any number of mistakes through the game. Some of which can lead to goals.
When your defence allows so many shots through on goal, the 'keeper can't be expected to save everything.
Scherpen is not the problem, and Walton probably isn't the solution. A better organised defence and a more cohesive defensive midfield might be. |
Top GKs make fewer mistakes than players in other positions. They gun for consistent 7/10 performances and being predictable for the CBs. They are expert on sensing danger and judging optimum position. Scherpen's shipped three goals in two games. I'm not too worried about the near post Liv first. All keepers occasionally miss a save. I'm worried about the two off-his-line mistakes. He was either physically two slow, or had poor judgement on through balls. Either way, that's much more difficult to fix.
Bring back Walton. He earned another shot at the Prem through his form last season. |  | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:31 - Sep 7 with 485 views | jayessess |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:13 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
Yes, plus Utd's fifth. Off his line, didn't get there and was lobbed.
We had these exact same conversations with Muric. Statistically the worst keeper in Prem, nearly single-handedly relegated us. By the time he was dropped, we were already in relegation spots and it was as good as too late. Palmer has his flaws, yet was miles better than Muric that season. I don't buy this "fans fault for being on his back". They're supposed to be professional sportsmen. If they wilt under criticism, then it's still their fault.
Fresh starts at new clubs can bring about a change in form. Muric' better form in Italy not necessarily due to us hounding him. Maybe he just got his head down and became more focussed. While with us, Muric was in nightclub partying scandal while away on Kosovo duty. Could be that Muric was just a bit of a playboy dick in those days, and decided to sort himself out.
With two off-his-line mistakes in two games, I worry that Scherpen will over-correct and be much more cautious from now on. Modern keepers act as pivots outside the box and intercept through balls. I can't see Scherpen being that keeper any time soon. Perhaps lack of acceleration (being 6ft 9") means he'll never be that keeper. We cannot have a goalkeeper who ships a goal a game **again** in the Premier League and expect to stay in it.
Walton was statistically the second or fourth best keeper in the Champ last season, on goals prevented and save percentage respectively:
https://www.fotmob.com/en-GB/l
https://www.fotmob.com/en-GB/l
Given our history of signing dodgy keepers, who almost single handedly relegate us in our last two Prem stints, you'd think we'd err on the side of caution and show some faith to one of the instrumental players who got us here this time. [Post edited 7 Sep 10:17]
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Muric was not statistically the worst keeper in the Prem but Walton might well have been.
Muric save percentage: 67.6% vs Walton 51.3% and Palmer 60%
We faced 216 shots that season, so that's the difference between conceding 70 goals or 105 or 86, over the course of the whole year.
Same on xGOT:
Muric -0.06 per 90 on goals prevented, Walton -0.24, Palmer -0.17
You can chuck in other stats on high claims and acted as sweeper where we've not faced a shot because Muric commanded his box better.
There was only one stat that Muric was worse in - errors leading to goals - 5 vs. 0 vs. 0. Even if you scale it up for the rest of the season, still would have had Muric in credit relative to the other two guys on the basis of his shot stopping alone.
We also got worse results without him, so the claim that he "nearly single-handedly relegated us" falls too.
None of this is to say Muric was a good signing or that we shouldn't have sold him (relationships had clearly broken down) or any of that. It's just that there is a lesson here that limiting errors is not the only thing (or even the main thing!) that makes a keeper effective. |  |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:32 - Sep 7 with 481 views | trncbluearmy |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 09:47 - Sep 7 by Bellevue_Blue |
You are basing your opinion of him on games against United and Liverpool ... Sunderland he was absolutely fine.
It is absolutely mad how quick fans are to turn on players. You are a 'supporter', support FFS. [Post edited 7 Sep 9:48]
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The OP is correct.
Happy to give Scherpen some time but time is not our friend in this league it can slip away very quickly to an unattainable postion.
We do seem to have purchased a series of keepers, at great expense, who were not up to the job or needed easing in.
The one keeper we have who is Prem ready always seems to get injured at the worst possible moment.
The whole goalkeeper situ. needs a good look at. [Post edited 7 Sep 10:33]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:34 - Sep 7 with 475 views | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:24 - Sep 7 by Bellevue_Blue |
Here is the league save % for Scherpen last season which is better than Walton FYI.
Absolutely don't let that get in the way of your really solid argument though.
https://www.fotmob.com/en-GB/l |
Belgium is a mickey mouse league. Nowhere near Championship standard. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:34 - Sep 7 with 475 views | bsw72 |
Tell me you don’t understand goalkeeping without saying you don’t understand goalkeeping. |  | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:39 - Sep 7 with 456 views | bsw72 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:07 - Sep 7 by JammyDodgerrr |
100%. This is what makes the goalkeeper conversation so frustrating. The guy on the bench somehow would've saved all of them, even though they wouldn't.
Just a reminder that we brought a keeper in, instead of trying Walton last time in the Prem. He played a few games and we looked for another keeper, and we've got promoted and done it again. Clearly the club (and multiple managers) don't think he's a PL no.1.
Scherpen made a howler for the first one, was caught out in the second(that will be fixed over time, building familiarity with the defence) but he also saved a few shots that had an xG of over 1, so as ever, swings and roundabouts. |
Classic sports fam psychology; “Immortality of Potential” When an active player makes mistakes that erode supporter affection and subsequently a non-playing member remains a blank canvas onto which supporters project their ideal solutions, in this case Walton being better than his record suggests. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:40 - Sep 7 with 456 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:32 - Sep 7 by trncbluearmy |
The OP is correct.
Happy to give Scherpen some time but time is not our friend in this league it can slip away very quickly to an unattainable postion.
We do seem to have purchased a series of keepers, at great expense, who were not up to the job or needed easing in.
The one keeper we have who is Prem ready always seems to get injured at the worst possible moment.
The whole goalkeeper situ. needs a good look at. [Post edited 7 Sep 10:33]
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We are currently 14th in the league!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are absolutely fine. There is no need to throw our toys out of the pram now.
Do it after we go on a bad run by all means but this weekend has highlighted the fragile and impatient mentality of some of ours fans.
We have three points having played three teams who finished 3rd, 5th and 7th last season. We are fine, we do not need to pile on a goalkeeper who has not been perfect. [Post edited 7 Sep 10:45]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:41 - Sep 7 with 452 views | HighgateBlue |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 09:55 - Sep 7 by bluelady |
so wrong that a certain Muric is now very highly thought of and playing really well in the Italian league? How do some of our fans get is sooooo wrong and hound players 3 games in and rather than support and help them develop and grow, knock the stuffing out of them with their constant negativity?? ALL keepers make mistakes, even the very best, yet our fans prefer to over analyse every move our new keeper makes in a bid to find fault? |
This is right, and I would personally have liked to have stuck with Muric.
However, that on its own does not yet mean that Scherpen is definitely good enough. Time will tell. Muric's stats were better than our other keepers in terms of save percentage and goals per game. Scherpen is yet to convince on those metrics, but (a) he must be given time before any real conclusion can be reached, and (b) if he does convince on those metrics, then he should not be hounded out of the club just because a couple of the few goals he concedes may have come from bad mistakes.
A striker who scores plenty in a season, but misses a couple of sitters is generally applauded. The same logic should have applied to Muric.
Our goalkeeping signings looked exciting. Who doesn't love a big goalie, who doesn't love a Dutchman, and who doesn't love a transfer strategy that might replicate the successful mid size clubs who pick up bargains from Europe in the £8m-£10m range?
But we know that some signings work out and others don't. To some extent it's a numbers game. If one right winger doesn't work out (or four), there's another option. The same is not really true with keepers. I personally would have liked us to have invested more heavily and bought certainty, as Hull did.
If Scherpen turns out like Sereni/Muric then our transfer business overall will not be quite as rosy as it has thus far appeared. And it will exacerbate the fact that we've not invested heavily in the defence, we don't have a RB starting at RB, and Leif's strongest suit is not his defending.
I thought he cost us the Liverpool game, which was over inside 10 minutes. But that happens, and can happen with any keeper. So he must be given support and time on the pitch. I don't know what Kayne's loan deal says about a recall, but that doesn't become an issue for a lot longer yet. |  | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:44 - Sep 7 with 439 views | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:31 - Sep 7 by jayessess |
Muric was not statistically the worst keeper in the Prem but Walton might well have been.
Muric save percentage: 67.6% vs Walton 51.3% and Palmer 60%
We faced 216 shots that season, so that's the difference between conceding 70 goals or 105 or 86, over the course of the whole year.
Same on xGOT:
Muric -0.06 per 90 on goals prevented, Walton -0.24, Palmer -0.17
You can chuck in other stats on high claims and acted as sweeper where we've not faced a shot because Muric commanded his box better.
There was only one stat that Muric was worse in - errors leading to goals - 5 vs. 0 vs. 0. Even if you scale it up for the rest of the season, still would have had Muric in credit relative to the other two guys on the basis of his shot stopping alone.
We also got worse results without him, so the claim that he "nearly single-handedly relegated us" falls too.
None of this is to say Muric was a good signing or that we shouldn't have sold him (relationships had clearly broken down) or any of that. It's just that there is a lesson here that limiting errors is not the only thing (or even the main thing!) that makes a keeper effective. |
"Muric was not statistically the worst keeper" - he had most errors leading to a goal:
https://www.footballcritic.com
Quite an achievement considering he only played half the season. I don't know how you can gloss over that.
We were second bottom mid December 2024 when we finally dropped Muric: https://www.football365.com/pr
Palmer made far fewer mistakes. Our poor form from then onwards was not due to our GK leaking goals. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:53 - Sep 7 with 404 views | bsw72 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:34 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
Belgium is a mickey mouse league. Nowhere near Championship standard. |
Oh dear. Based on the Opta global league ranking the Belgian Pro League ranks 7th globally, while the English Championship ranks 10th.
In fact the style of Belgian pro league football is well known to be highly experimental, fast, and transitional. Top teams generate a high volume of xG because games are often open and fast. Therefore a high performing GK in Belgium is often performing much higher than the EFL Championship equivalent due to the more defensive nature of the Championship which is now dominated by teams playing deeper and relatively low XG. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:56 - Sep 7 with 392 views | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:32 - Sep 7 by trncbluearmy |
The OP is correct.
Happy to give Scherpen some time but time is not our friend in this league it can slip away very quickly to an unattainable postion.
We do seem to have purchased a series of keepers, at great expense, who were not up to the job or needed easing in.
The one keeper we have who is Prem ready always seems to get injured at the worst possible moment.
The whole goalkeeper situ. needs a good look at. [Post edited 7 Sep 10:33]
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"The one keeper we have who is Prem ready always seems to get injured at the worst possible moment." - if you're talking about Walton, he was fit (on the bench) in time for our first game this season. Palmer, who was excellent in the Prem last time, could have deputied fine. We'd signed Van Oevelen early summer and he could have backed-up Palmer if there was worry Walton wouldn't make it in time.
2001, 2024, 2026? When will we ever learn? Stick with what we have or sign a steady 7/10 keeper. [Post edited 7 Sep 11:17]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:59 - Sep 7 with 392 views | bsw72 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:44 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
"Muric was not statistically the worst keeper" - he had most errors leading to a goal:
https://www.footballcritic.com
Quite an achievement considering he only played half the season. I don't know how you can gloss over that.
We were second bottom mid December 2024 when we finally dropped Muric: https://www.football365.com/pr
Palmer made far fewer mistakes. Our poor form from then onwards was not due to our GK leaking goals. |
Picking one statistic does not support your argument, otherwise I would highlight that he picked up 3 MotM awards in 18 games which was statistically the best in the league for keepers playing less than 30 games. In fact the one every 6 games was only bettered by Flekken who pick up one every 5.5. [Post edited 7 Sep 11:02]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:00 - Sep 7 with 380 views | jayessess |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:44 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
"Muric was not statistically the worst keeper" - he had most errors leading to a goal:
https://www.footballcritic.com
Quite an achievement considering he only played half the season. I don't know how you can gloss over that.
We were second bottom mid December 2024 when we finally dropped Muric: https://www.football365.com/pr
Palmer made far fewer mistakes. Our poor form from then onwards was not due to our GK leaking goals. |
How am I glossing over something that is literally addressed in the post?
If keeper A concedes an extra goal every two games because their shot stopping is mediocre and keeper B concedes an extra one every three games because they're error prone, the second keeper is statistically a better keeper. If you want to play stats, that's how the stats work!
I am 5'8", you could put me in goal and I would stay rooted to my line. I'd concede from any shot that was not straight at me. None of the resulting goals would technically constitute "an error". Am I doing better than a professional keeper? Of course not. | |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:04 - Sep 7 with 375 views | bsw72 |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 09:51 - Sep 7 by Dubtractor |
Have you made a single positive post in your brief time on twtd?
There seems to be an influx of new posters who only seem to be here to post negativity.
Pretty annoying tbh. |
Happened in 24/25 as well. Seems the be the idiot ratio increases with league standing. Bless ‘em. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:16 - Sep 7 with 338 views | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:53 - Sep 7 by bsw72 |
Oh dear. Based on the Opta global league ranking the Belgian Pro League ranks 7th globally, while the English Championship ranks 10th.
In fact the style of Belgian pro league football is well known to be highly experimental, fast, and transitional. Top teams generate a high volume of xG because games are often open and fast. Therefore a high performing GK in Belgium is often performing much higher than the EFL Championship equivalent due to the more defensive nature of the Championship which is now dominated by teams playing deeper and relatively low XG. |
Follow the money. Belgium is 26th richest league in the world. Championship is 14th:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Champ clubs have almost double the revenue. Who do you think is capable of attracting the better players? I don't know how Opta judges its table. If it's by inter-league results, then Belgium teams don't progress far in Europe, and Championship clubs don't play there at all. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:21 - Sep 7 with 330 views | homer_123 |
I think if we bricked up the goal, you'd still be unhappy with the pointing. |  |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:24 - Sep 7 with 321 views | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 10:59 - Sep 7 by bsw72 |
Picking one statistic does not support your argument, otherwise I would highlight that he picked up 3 MotM awards in 18 games which was statistically the best in the league for keepers playing less than 30 games. In fact the one every 6 games was only bettered by Flekken who pick up one every 5.5. [Post edited 7 Sep 11:02]
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Mistakes leading to goals quite an important stat for GK, no? Save % can mean he stopped a bunch of mis-hit pea-rollers, who knows? Did you actually watch Muric play in goal for us that season?
When it comes to GK, you want strings of 7/10 performances. Not an occasional 10/10 performance interspersed with 4/10s. A defender wants his keeper to be predictable, not a skittish gambler. That's what Muric was in 24/25. Terminally inappropriately off his line and playing risky passes. Scherpen's footwork hasn't been as bad as Muric' so far, but just as bad off his line in the last two games. We cannot wait until December. We'll be as good as relegated again. [Post edited 7 Sep 11:58]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:28 - Sep 7 with 315 views | SWLondonBlue93 |
There is no point in relitigating Muric's time at the club so I'm going to gloss over that and stick with Scherpen.
It took me a few replays to understand what happened with the second goal against Liverpool, if you watch the angle from behind the goal you'll see that Scherpen's starting position is close to the edge of the box, he doesn't rush out as a response to the pass. I presume this is to try to sweep up through balls, but the pass on this occasion was too accurate. It looked a bit daft in the end but is he supposed to retreat towards his own goal in that scenario? Maybe he should have done and left Greaves to try to hold up Isak. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:28 - Sep 7 with 308 views | OldFart71 |
I think the guy needs a few more games before we pass judgement. Several player have come in and not all are showing why we bought them. Some have already departed due to never really proving their worth.
No matter what the criteria you apply for buying a player it still doesn't guarantee that despite what he has achieved in the past he will do the same for you. But some will excel and surpass any expectation.
I don't have illusions of grandeur regarding what Town will achieve this season.
Games such as Palace,Fulham etc will determine whether we survive and not playing Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool as the chances of beating them is minimal.
We don't now have the likes of Beattie and Hunter, Burley and Mills, Mariner and Wark.
These were real class players and whilst the supporters of today may be highly impressed that we pay nearly £30 million for a player the likes of Mariner would have been close or above the £100 million mark. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:30 - Sep 7 with 303 views | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:00 - Sep 7 by jayessess |
How am I glossing over something that is literally addressed in the post?
If keeper A concedes an extra goal every two games because their shot stopping is mediocre and keeper B concedes an extra one every three games because they're error prone, the second keeper is statistically a better keeper. If you want to play stats, that's how the stats work!
I am 5'8", you could put me in goal and I would stay rooted to my line. I'd concede from any shot that was not straight at me. None of the resulting goals would technically constitute "an error". Am I doing better than a professional keeper? Of course not. |
You wang on about shot-stopping, but it far from the be all and end all. Mistakes leading to a goal is more all-encompassing. Keepers can also flap crosses, pass to strikers, can be dispossessed, and come kamikazee off their line. Shot stopping % captures none of those mistakes. Mistakes leading to goal does. I've already said, I'm not too worried about Scherpen flapping Liv's first. It's the other, more fundamental mistakes that concern me. | | | |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:36 - Sep 7 with 286 views | grow_our_own |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:28 - Sep 7 by SWLondonBlue93 |
There is no point in relitigating Muric's time at the club so I'm going to gloss over that and stick with Scherpen.
It took me a few replays to understand what happened with the second goal against Liverpool, if you watch the angle from behind the goal you'll see that Scherpen's starting position is close to the edge of the box, he doesn't rush out as a response to the pass. I presume this is to try to sweep up through balls, but the pass on this occasion was too accurate. It looked a bit daft in the end but is he supposed to retreat towards his own goal in that scenario? Maybe he should have done and left Greaves to try to hold up Isak. |
Absolutely should have retreated. He was never going to get there. Maybe might have vs slower Belgium league strikers, but not Izak in the Prem. We cannot have a project in goal in the Premier League. We should have stuck with Walton. But if we were going to jettison him, it should have been a steady, Prem-experienced GK capable of stringing 7/10s.
Our entire new "sign top-league experience" transfer strategy will be undone if we've signed a dodgy keeper from a minnow league. I can't believe how Scherpen fitted the profile we otherwise signed this summer. [Post edited 7 Sep 11:40]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:42 - Sep 7 with 273 views | Metal_Hacker |
Here's that Premier League entitlement again
We had this the previous season ffs
Annoying as ferk |  |
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:49 - Sep 7 with 255 views | Guthrum |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:28 - Sep 7 by SWLondonBlue93 |
There is no point in relitigating Muric's time at the club so I'm going to gloss over that and stick with Scherpen.
It took me a few replays to understand what happened with the second goal against Liverpool, if you watch the angle from behind the goal you'll see that Scherpen's starting position is close to the edge of the box, he doesn't rush out as a response to the pass. I presume this is to try to sweep up through balls, but the pass on this occasion was too accurate. It looked a bit daft in the end but is he supposed to retreat towards his own goal in that scenario? Maybe he should have done and left Greaves to try to hold up Isak. |
I don't think he was expecting Greaves to make it back in time to cover. Thus he was caught neither forward nor back when the defender tried to intervene, inadvertantly leaving Izak an open (if difficult) route to the goal. [Post edited 7 Sep 11:49]
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| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:54 - Sep 7 with 233 views | Guthrum |
| How do we manage to get it so wrong with goalkeepers? on 11:36 - Sep 7 by grow_our_own |
Absolutely should have retreated. He was never going to get there. Maybe might have vs slower Belgium league strikers, but not Izak in the Prem. We cannot have a project in goal in the Premier League. We should have stuck with Walton. But if we were going to jettison him, it should have been a steady, Prem-experienced GK capable of stringing 7/10s.
Our entire new "sign top-league experience" transfer strategy will be undone if we've signed a dodgy keeper from a minnow league. I can't believe how Scherpen fitted the profile we otherwise signed this summer. [Post edited 7 Sep 11:40]
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Distribution, probably. All goalkeepers are a compromise between shot stopping and providing a base for playing out.
Scherpen is not rubbish, he was fine in the Sunderland game. Just made a couple of punished mistakes against top teams.
His very long and accurate throws may prove important in launching attacks as the season progresses. | |
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