| That standoff in Nothern Ireland 21:48 - Sep 27 with 1376 views | The_Romford_Blue |
Where do they go from here then?
The Orangemen marchers wanna march (obviously that specific road is incredibly contentious and highly inflammatory) while the Catholic locals in their thousands absolutely will not budge. Police somewhat caught in the middle. Catholics refusing to negotiate with negotiations and the Orangemen refusing to budge as the recent court order is on their side.
Is there any possible way it goes off (likely tomorrow) without huge amounts of violence? And both sides will likely be knackered as well and therefore more irritable, hostile and irrational.
Fascinating viewing today though I’ve found |  |
| |  |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 21:52 - Sep 27 with 1337 views | Perublue |
I imagine there will be a unified Ireland in my daughters lifetime… maybe mine.
I have no horse in the race so to speak just an inevitability that I accept as such.
There will be a lot of mess before that though and afterwards…also an inevitability. |  |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 22:10 - Sep 27 with 1219 views | WicklowBlue |
Fascinating viewing? Why Rommers?
From my side it was a ridiculous decision to allow the march down one of the most if not ever contentious routes.
Even more so the decision being made on Friday! Not enough time for legal challenges that went onto until the early hours today. Not enough time for discussion and PSNI to work with both communities.
Stupid decision by the Parades Commission, anyone could have seen what is unfolding happen. No need for it full stop.
In short nope there will be no parade/march... unless both sides agree. |  | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 23:15 - Sep 27 with 1019 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 22:10 - Sep 27 by WicklowBlue |
Fascinating viewing? Why Rommers?
From my side it was a ridiculous decision to allow the march down one of the most if not ever contentious routes.
Even more so the decision being made on Friday! Not enough time for legal challenges that went onto until the early hours today. Not enough time for discussion and PSNI to work with both communities.
Stupid decision by the Parades Commission, anyone could have seen what is unfolding happen. No need for it full stop.
In short nope there will be no parade/march... unless both sides agree. |
I agree it surely ends with the march being postponed but that’ll have to be a court decision as they’ve affectively got the right to do so by the legal system as it stands.
I think it is fascinating that both sides are refusing to budge and the police and negotiators can do nothing at all except watch. Neither side are legally doing anything where they ought to be arrested as one is a legal march and the other is affectively a peaceful protest whereby the police know any intervention will have huge repercussions. They know they can’t really intervene without relations seriously going downhill which they probably won’t want to risk.
So as a result we’re at a standstill. Maybe I’m just a weirdo but I do find it fascinating to watch play out | |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 00:02 - Sep 28 with 935 views | WicklowBlue |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 23:15 - Sep 27 by The_Romford_Blue |
I agree it surely ends with the march being postponed but that’ll have to be a court decision as they’ve affectively got the right to do so by the legal system as it stands.
I think it is fascinating that both sides are refusing to budge and the police and negotiators can do nothing at all except watch. Neither side are legally doing anything where they ought to be arrested as one is a legal march and the other is affectively a peaceful protest whereby the police know any intervention will have huge repercussions. They know they can’t really intervene without relations seriously going downhill which they probably won’t want to risk.
So as a result we’re at a standstill. Maybe I’m just a weirdo but I do find it fascinating to watch play out |
In NI honestly whatever courts decide in this situation don't mean anything. It should never have got to this kinda like the Ireland v Israel game tonight.
Not sure if you know the history and divisive nature of these marches and the Orange Order who believe they can march down the "Queens/King's Highway" and completely disregard the wishes or upset it causes the Catholic areas in Portadown.
From a high level community perspective, if any march/event causes issues for the local community then in my opinion they should not be allowed. Not an equivalent but it would be like Norwich winning the EPL and demanding to parade through Ipswich. I doubt that would be welcome but then we are dealing with men dressing uo in yesteryear bowler hats celebrating the defeat of James II in 1691!!!
Tradition is one thing but NI needs to move forward and progress past this stuff. If a community on either side doesn't want marches etc those wishes should be respected. | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 00:05 - Sep 28 with 928 views | redrickstuhaart |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 00:02 - Sep 28 by WicklowBlue |
In NI honestly whatever courts decide in this situation don't mean anything. It should never have got to this kinda like the Ireland v Israel game tonight.
Not sure if you know the history and divisive nature of these marches and the Orange Order who believe they can march down the "Queens/King's Highway" and completely disregard the wishes or upset it causes the Catholic areas in Portadown.
From a high level community perspective, if any march/event causes issues for the local community then in my opinion they should not be allowed. Not an equivalent but it would be like Norwich winning the EPL and demanding to parade through Ipswich. I doubt that would be welcome but then we are dealing with men dressing uo in yesteryear bowler hats celebrating the defeat of James II in 1691!!!
Tradition is one thing but NI needs to move forward and progress past this stuff. If a community on either side doesn't want marches etc those wishes should be respected. |
The objections to the March are ridiculous.
As is the march itself.
As are all the consequent arguments.
The only way out of this is education, the development of critical thinking, and the ridding of religious nonsense and sectariansim from the majority of human brains. Its 2026. And these people are still fighting because one lot thinks that their approach to worshipping an invisible sky daddy is more correct than the other. |  |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 06:44 - Sep 28 with 669 views | noggin |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 00:05 - Sep 28 by redrickstuhaart |
The objections to the March are ridiculous.
As is the march itself.
As are all the consequent arguments.
The only way out of this is education, the development of critical thinking, and the ridding of religious nonsense and sectariansim from the majority of human brains. Its 2026. And these people are still fighting because one lot thinks that their approach to worshipping an invisible sky daddy is more correct than the other. |
"Its 2026. And these people are still fighting because one lot thinks that their approach to worshipping an invisible sky daddy is more correct than the other."
I don't think religion is, or ever was, the real issue. |  |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 07:19 - Sep 28 with 589 views | DJR |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 06:44 - Sep 28 by noggin |
"Its 2026. And these people are still fighting because one lot thinks that their approach to worshipping an invisible sky daddy is more correct than the other."
I don't think religion is, or ever was, the real issue. |
You might say that but in my view if England and Scotland hadn't turned Protestant, and the settlers in Ireland were instead Catholics, there would instead have been a united Ireland when Northern Ireland came into existence.
Being Protestant created a permanent link to Britain, and an opposition to Catholicism, that would just not have existed had they been Catholic.
Having said that, this is an interesting snippet suggesting Scottish Presbyterian settlers at one time had more in common with Irish Catholic settlers than Anglican settlers.
"Members of the Church of Ireland mostly consisted of the Protestant Ascendancy, Protestant settlers of English descent who formed the elite of 17th and 18th century Ireland. For this reason, up until the 19th century, and despite their common fear of Irish Catholics, there was considerable disharmony between the Presbyterians and the Protestant Ascendancy in Ulster. As a result of this, many Ulster-Scots, along with Catholic native Irish, ignored religious differences to join the United Irishmen and participate in the Irish Rebellion of 1798, in support of Age of Enlightenment-inspired egalitarian and republican goals influenced by the French Revolution." [Post edited 28 Sep 8:12]
|  | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 07:32 - Sep 28 with 546 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
Maybe I don't understand the history well enough, but I find the whole thing incredibly childish. The march is pure provocation... and the people getting upset by a march are almost as bad.
Have these people got nothing better to do?
My other half, who is Irish, said, "But it's history".
"Slavery is history, shall we bring that back?"
"Um, yeah, good point". |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:24 - Sep 28 with 349 views | Guthrum |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 07:19 - Sep 28 by DJR |
You might say that but in my view if England and Scotland hadn't turned Protestant, and the settlers in Ireland were instead Catholics, there would instead have been a united Ireland when Northern Ireland came into existence.
Being Protestant created a permanent link to Britain, and an opposition to Catholicism, that would just not have existed had they been Catholic.
Having said that, this is an interesting snippet suggesting Scottish Presbyterian settlers at one time had more in common with Irish Catholic settlers than Anglican settlers.
"Members of the Church of Ireland mostly consisted of the Protestant Ascendancy, Protestant settlers of English descent who formed the elite of 17th and 18th century Ireland. For this reason, up until the 19th century, and despite their common fear of Irish Catholics, there was considerable disharmony between the Presbyterians and the Protestant Ascendancy in Ulster. As a result of this, many Ulster-Scots, along with Catholic native Irish, ignored religious differences to join the United Irishmen and participate in the Irish Rebellion of 1798, in support of Age of Enlightenment-inspired egalitarian and republican goals influenced by the French Revolution." [Post edited 28 Sep 8:12]
|
It was deliberate policy by King James I. Getting rid of a fairly troublesome bunch of Scots by shipping them to a particularly troublesome area of Ireland with the offer of free land (called at the time "Plantations"). It also spread Protestantism, which was a good thing in his view, brought up from childhood in strict Presbyterianism*.
You're right in saying that the Presbyterians were not particularly aligned with the older Anglo-Irish aristocracy (mostly of English descent). After all, at the beginning of that period there was open warfare in Scotland between Prebyterian Covenanters and the Anglican royal government (Drumclog, Bothwell Bridge). They were often no less poor than the Catholic population, until industrialised Belfast became politically and economically dominant.
This continued until things came to a head with Irish independence and partition, followed by Belfast's economic decline in the 1960s, sparking open conflict as Catholics were excluded from job opportunities. It was to protect the latter community from oppression that troops were originally brought in, tho things quickly spiralled out of control when the Provisionals split from the main IRA and commenced an active campaign.
* Tho he was not so anti-Catholic as sometimes thought. Quite prepared to tolerate them, until they tried to blow him up in 1605**. James' wife, Anne of Denmark, may have been secretly Catholic. His mother Mary (who he had not seen since he was about one year old) certainly was. James was not under the same kind of threat from the Papacy and Catholic powers as his predecessor Elizabeth, for whom it was an existential struggle.
** Edit: To be fair, it was a bunch of radicalised fanatics who did that, not representative of the wider English Catholic community at the time. [Post edited 28 Sep 10:09]
|  |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:35 - Sep 28 with 328 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
A whole generation have grown up without the ever present threat of brutal violence, and are now playing an incredibly high stakes game of chicken.
It should be remembered that some on the Loyalist side, including senior leaders at the time and still, like Sammy Wilson MP, opposed both the Peace Process working towards The Good Friday Agreement and the Agreement itself, initially.
There were many in the Loyalist Youth movements at the time who opposed the Peace Process, and they are now in their forties and fifties.
The "Big Beasts" who made the Peace Process happen (Ian Paisley senior on the Loyalist side, Martin McGuinness on the Republican side, Mo Mowlam for the UK Government) have died, and the international arbiters, are very old (General De Chastelain) or very old and discredited (Senator Mitchell). Blair and Clinton have lost their lustre.
Within Northern Ireland politics the practical out-workings of the GFA, in terms of Government through MLAs at Stormont, with a First Minister and Deputy First Minister from each community, rather than Direct Rule by the Northern Ireland Secretary, has completely broken down. There is no working relationship between the DUP and Sinn Fein (the "harder line" parties of the Loyalist, Protestant and Republican, Catholic communities, respectively) as there was able to be, remarkably, between Paisley and McGuiness, in spite of the fact that both men had, at the very least, been complicit in acts of violence during the Troubles.
I remember Armando Iannucci on The Saturday Night Armistice offering a satirical solution to one of the Peace Process seemingly intractable deadlocks:
Ian Paisley said that he would not be in the same room as Sinn Fein representatives.
Gerry Adams, then leader of Sinn Fein, said there could only be negotiations if Sinn Fein and the DUP were sat at the same table.
So Iannucci unveiled a 30 foot L shaped table which could start in one room, go through the door, and then turn the corner into the next room. Adams could sit at one end, and Paisley at the other, and that way they would both have their demands met.
So, in that spirit, I offer the following solutions to the Drumcree stand off:
1) The March can happen, but only as a Orange Order X World Naked Bike Ride Collab. The Marchers have to be naked, but can have their suits and Orange sashes painted on.
2) The March can happen, but it is an away match for the Loyalists, so they should wear a change kit of Green sashes. If the Apprentice Boys want to March through Loyalist areas they should wear an Away kit of Orange. If the Orange Order wants to march in Loyalist areas then they can wear their Home Kit.
3) It's a Knockout Inflatables all the way along the Garvaghy Road. For added impact every tenth Orangeman has to wear a giant inflatable Ian Paisley body suit.
4) Twelve Orangemen can march down Garvaghy Road each year, to fulfill their traditions. A ticket to march shall be the top prize in the tombola at 12 different church fetes. Protestants love a tombola, this maintaing two traditions for the price of one. | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:44 - Sep 28 with 295 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 07:19 - Sep 28 by DJR |
You might say that but in my view if England and Scotland hadn't turned Protestant, and the settlers in Ireland were instead Catholics, there would instead have been a united Ireland when Northern Ireland came into existence.
Being Protestant created a permanent link to Britain, and an opposition to Catholicism, that would just not have existed had they been Catholic.
Having said that, this is an interesting snippet suggesting Scottish Presbyterian settlers at one time had more in common with Irish Catholic settlers than Anglican settlers.
"Members of the Church of Ireland mostly consisted of the Protestant Ascendancy, Protestant settlers of English descent who formed the elite of 17th and 18th century Ireland. For this reason, up until the 19th century, and despite their common fear of Irish Catholics, there was considerable disharmony between the Presbyterians and the Protestant Ascendancy in Ulster. As a result of this, many Ulster-Scots, along with Catholic native Irish, ignored religious differences to join the United Irishmen and participate in the Irish Rebellion of 1798, in support of Age of Enlightenment-inspired egalitarian and republican goals influenced by the French Revolution." [Post edited 28 Sep 8:12]
|
The Church of Ireland is largely irrelevant as a factor in the violence of The Troubles, and consistently worked as an arbiter of communication between Loyalists and Republicans during The Troubles, and in promoting reconciliation afterwards.
The Orange Order is rooted in the Presbyterian Church. Paisley considered the Presbyterian Church too liberal, and set up his own Free Presbyterian Church. New Orange Order Lodges then arose out of Free Presbyterian congregations.
The idea that there would be no division and violence in Northern Ireland if there were no religion is trite, and ignores human capacity for tribalism and deep-seated resentments. | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:46 - Sep 28 with 292 views | Guthrum |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 07:32 - Sep 28 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Maybe I don't understand the history well enough, but I find the whole thing incredibly childish. The march is pure provocation... and the people getting upset by a march are almost as bad.
Have these people got nothing better to do?
My other half, who is Irish, said, "But it's history".
"Slavery is history, shall we bring that back?"
"Um, yeah, good point". |
It's about community identity and a sense of past wins and losses. It's not so long ago people used to physically fight over football club loyalties.
There is history going back to the 17th century, but not entirely continuous. Old commemorations dragged up to reinforce more modern fault-lines. The Drumcree march, which is mostly held in July to mark the 1690 Battle of the Boyne, but apparently also in September on the anniversary of Ulster Protestants rejecting Irish Home Rule in 1912, actually started as an event in the 19th century. | |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:53 - Sep 28 with 275 views | Guthrum |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:35 - Sep 28 by ArnoldMoorhen |
A whole generation have grown up without the ever present threat of brutal violence, and are now playing an incredibly high stakes game of chicken.
It should be remembered that some on the Loyalist side, including senior leaders at the time and still, like Sammy Wilson MP, opposed both the Peace Process working towards The Good Friday Agreement and the Agreement itself, initially.
There were many in the Loyalist Youth movements at the time who opposed the Peace Process, and they are now in their forties and fifties.
The "Big Beasts" who made the Peace Process happen (Ian Paisley senior on the Loyalist side, Martin McGuinness on the Republican side, Mo Mowlam for the UK Government) have died, and the international arbiters, are very old (General De Chastelain) or very old and discredited (Senator Mitchell). Blair and Clinton have lost their lustre.
Within Northern Ireland politics the practical out-workings of the GFA, in terms of Government through MLAs at Stormont, with a First Minister and Deputy First Minister from each community, rather than Direct Rule by the Northern Ireland Secretary, has completely broken down. There is no working relationship between the DUP and Sinn Fein (the "harder line" parties of the Loyalist, Protestant and Republican, Catholic communities, respectively) as there was able to be, remarkably, between Paisley and McGuiness, in spite of the fact that both men had, at the very least, been complicit in acts of violence during the Troubles.
I remember Armando Iannucci on The Saturday Night Armistice offering a satirical solution to one of the Peace Process seemingly intractable deadlocks:
Ian Paisley said that he would not be in the same room as Sinn Fein representatives.
Gerry Adams, then leader of Sinn Fein, said there could only be negotiations if Sinn Fein and the DUP were sat at the same table.
So Iannucci unveiled a 30 foot L shaped table which could start in one room, go through the door, and then turn the corner into the next room. Adams could sit at one end, and Paisley at the other, and that way they would both have their demands met.
So, in that spirit, I offer the following solutions to the Drumcree stand off:
1) The March can happen, but only as a Orange Order X World Naked Bike Ride Collab. The Marchers have to be naked, but can have their suits and Orange sashes painted on.
2) The March can happen, but it is an away match for the Loyalists, so they should wear a change kit of Green sashes. If the Apprentice Boys want to March through Loyalist areas they should wear an Away kit of Orange. If the Orange Order wants to march in Loyalist areas then they can wear their Home Kit.
3) It's a Knockout Inflatables all the way along the Garvaghy Road. For added impact every tenth Orangeman has to wear a giant inflatable Ian Paisley body suit.
4) Twelve Orangemen can march down Garvaghy Road each year, to fulfill their traditions. A ticket to march shall be the top prize in the tombola at 12 different church fetes. Protestants love a tombola, this maintaing two traditions for the price of one. |
The current economic situation (along with the drug trade and other criminality) fuels a new danger of violence, the same as it did in the late '60s.
I do like the idea of naked, body-painted Orangemen trying to solemly parade through Catholoc areas. | |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:04 - Sep 28 with 229 views | Swansea_Blue |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:35 - Sep 28 by ArnoldMoorhen |
A whole generation have grown up without the ever present threat of brutal violence, and are now playing an incredibly high stakes game of chicken.
It should be remembered that some on the Loyalist side, including senior leaders at the time and still, like Sammy Wilson MP, opposed both the Peace Process working towards The Good Friday Agreement and the Agreement itself, initially.
There were many in the Loyalist Youth movements at the time who opposed the Peace Process, and they are now in their forties and fifties.
The "Big Beasts" who made the Peace Process happen (Ian Paisley senior on the Loyalist side, Martin McGuinness on the Republican side, Mo Mowlam for the UK Government) have died, and the international arbiters, are very old (General De Chastelain) or very old and discredited (Senator Mitchell). Blair and Clinton have lost their lustre.
Within Northern Ireland politics the practical out-workings of the GFA, in terms of Government through MLAs at Stormont, with a First Minister and Deputy First Minister from each community, rather than Direct Rule by the Northern Ireland Secretary, has completely broken down. There is no working relationship between the DUP and Sinn Fein (the "harder line" parties of the Loyalist, Protestant and Republican, Catholic communities, respectively) as there was able to be, remarkably, between Paisley and McGuiness, in spite of the fact that both men had, at the very least, been complicit in acts of violence during the Troubles.
I remember Armando Iannucci on The Saturday Night Armistice offering a satirical solution to one of the Peace Process seemingly intractable deadlocks:
Ian Paisley said that he would not be in the same room as Sinn Fein representatives.
Gerry Adams, then leader of Sinn Fein, said there could only be negotiations if Sinn Fein and the DUP were sat at the same table.
So Iannucci unveiled a 30 foot L shaped table which could start in one room, go through the door, and then turn the corner into the next room. Adams could sit at one end, and Paisley at the other, and that way they would both have their demands met.
So, in that spirit, I offer the following solutions to the Drumcree stand off:
1) The March can happen, but only as a Orange Order X World Naked Bike Ride Collab. The Marchers have to be naked, but can have their suits and Orange sashes painted on.
2) The March can happen, but it is an away match for the Loyalists, so they should wear a change kit of Green sashes. If the Apprentice Boys want to March through Loyalist areas they should wear an Away kit of Orange. If the Orange Order wants to march in Loyalist areas then they can wear their Home Kit.
3) It's a Knockout Inflatables all the way along the Garvaghy Road. For added impact every tenth Orangeman has to wear a giant inflatable Ian Paisley body suit.
4) Twelve Orangemen can march down Garvaghy Road each year, to fulfill their traditions. A ticket to march shall be the top prize in the tombola at 12 different church fetes. Protestants love a tombola, this maintaing two traditions for the price of one. |
I remember them being petty and intransigent, but the table thing is ridiculous  (but also very clever)
Sorry, missed satirical - very good though 👍 [Post edited 28 Sep 10:05]
|  |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:07 - Sep 28 with 212 views | DJR |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:44 - Sep 28 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The Church of Ireland is largely irrelevant as a factor in the violence of The Troubles, and consistently worked as an arbiter of communication between Loyalists and Republicans during The Troubles, and in promoting reconciliation afterwards.
The Orange Order is rooted in the Presbyterian Church. Paisley considered the Presbyterian Church too liberal, and set up his own Free Presbyterian Church. New Orange Order Lodges then arose out of Free Presbyterian congregations.
The idea that there would be no division and violence in Northern Ireland if there were no religion is trite, and ignores human capacity for tribalism and deep-seated resentments. |
Admittedly, mine was a totally hypothetical counter-factual, but surely there would haven been no tribalism of the current nature if all of the people in Ireland were Catholic? [Post edited 28 Sep 10:09]
| | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:12 - Sep 28 with 177 views | Guthrum |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:07 - Sep 28 by DJR |
Admittedly, mine was a totally hypothetical counter-factual, but surely there would haven been no tribalism of the current nature if all of the people in Ireland were Catholic? [Post edited 28 Sep 10:09]
|
Internal warfare in Ireland was pretty endemic long before the English turned up (as it was in England and most other countries back then). Ancient tales speak of a celebrated rivalry between Ulster and the rest of Ireland, over a bull (the Tain Bo Cuailnge). | |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:15 - Sep 28 with 163 views | DJR |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:46 - Sep 28 by Guthrum |
It's about community identity and a sense of past wins and losses. It's not so long ago people used to physically fight over football club loyalties.
There is history going back to the 17th century, but not entirely continuous. Old commemorations dragged up to reinforce more modern fault-lines. The Drumcree march, which is mostly held in July to mark the 1690 Battle of the Boyne, but apparently also in September on the anniversary of Ulster Protestants rejecting Irish Home Rule in 1912, actually started as an event in the 19th century. |
Some of the recent concerns on the Unionist/Loyalist side appear to be influenced by the fact that their ascendancy is on the wane, with Sinn Fein leading the power-sharing agreement and the likelihood that Protestants will become the minority in the province, if that is not already the case. [Post edited 28 Sep 10:25]
| | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:17 - Sep 28 with 146 views | jayessess |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:07 - Sep 28 by DJR |
Admittedly, mine was a totally hypothetical counter-factual, but surely there would haven been no tribalism of the current nature if all of the people in Ireland were Catholic? [Post edited 28 Sep 10:09]
|
Are we keeping everything else the same? i.e. The Brits still invade and colonise Ireland, establish a dominant aristocratic caste across the island who are the major holders of land and capital and act as proxies for the power of the English state, establish another privileged class of settlers from Britain who dominate the local institutions of government in the North East, monopolise the best jobs and land.
You would imagine that situation would still produce unionists and republicans, irrespective of religious views. |  |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:19 - Sep 28 with 130 views | DJR |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:12 - Sep 28 by Guthrum |
Internal warfare in Ireland was pretty endemic long before the English turned up (as it was in England and most other countries back then). Ancient tales speak of a celebrated rivalry between Ulster and the rest of Ireland, over a bull (the Tain Bo Cuailnge). |
That is certainly true but would be unlikely to have continued to present times.
And my understanding is that people like the Vikings were fairly quickly assimilated into Gaelic culture. | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:22 - Sep 28 with 105 views | DJR |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:17 - Sep 28 by jayessess |
Are we keeping everything else the same? i.e. The Brits still invade and colonise Ireland, establish a dominant aristocratic caste across the island who are the major holders of land and capital and act as proxies for the power of the English state, establish another privileged class of settlers from Britain who dominate the local institutions of government in the North East, monopolise the best jobs and land.
You would imagine that situation would still produce unionists and republicans, irrespective of religious views. |
But most of Ireland broke free from that with its independence, and only Northern Ireland held out because of its Protestantism. | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:24 - Sep 28 with 93 views | jayessess |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 00:05 - Sep 28 by redrickstuhaart |
The objections to the March are ridiculous.
As is the march itself.
As are all the consequent arguments.
The only way out of this is education, the development of critical thinking, and the ridding of religious nonsense and sectariansim from the majority of human brains. Its 2026. And these people are still fighting because one lot thinks that their approach to worshipping an invisible sky daddy is more correct than the other. |
Is it ridiculous to object to an Orange Order march passing your home? There is plenty of precedent for people having property destroyed (and worse) during these events, plenty of historical reasons why you might find it intimidating or otherwise unpleasant. You would not need to be sectarian or hold any grudge against protestants in general to feel those things and prefer the march not to proceed. | |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:36 - Sep 28 with 50 views | jayessess |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:22 - Sep 28 by DJR |
But most of Ireland broke free from that with its independence, and only Northern Ireland held out because of its Protestantism. |
It's Unionism that keeps the 6 counties in the union, not protestantism per se. Protestantism was certainly a useful ideological anchor for those communities that identified as British but I don't know that it would have been necessarily impossible to sustain loyalism without it. | |
| |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:50 - Sep 28 with 0 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:46 - Sep 28 by Guthrum |
It's about community identity and a sense of past wins and losses. It's not so long ago people used to physically fight over football club loyalties.
There is history going back to the 17th century, but not entirely continuous. Old commemorations dragged up to reinforce more modern fault-lines. The Drumcree march, which is mostly held in July to mark the 1690 Battle of the Boyne, but apparently also in September on the anniversary of Ulster Protestants rejecting Irish Home Rule in 1912, actually started as an event in the 19th century. |
Recent history is probably even more relevant.
As I mention above, many on the Loyalist (Orange) side, including senior politicians and leaders of Orange Lodges, were opposed to the Peace Protest.
The Good Friday Agreement was signed on 10th April 1998.
The 1998 Drumcree March was banned by the Parades Commission as too inflammatory.
There was a huge stand off as tens of thousands of Orangemen and other Loyalist supporters gathered at the edge of the town. There were clashes as they tried to break through security forces.
This went on for over a week. A huge security forces presence on the edge of town. Fires lit to block roads in and out of the town. Blast bombs/pipe bombs thrown, as well as hundreds of petrol bombs. Charges at Police lines.
The Police had dug up fields and erected barbed wire all round the Garvaghy Road area. Food and medicine ran out for residents, and emergency relief convoys had to be laid on.
There were over a hundred arson attacks on Catholic community homes during this period.
One arson attack, attributed to the UVF, a Loyalist paramilitary organisation, resulted in three young brothers Richard (10), Mark (9), and Jason Quinn (8) burning to death in their home in Ballymoney, County Antrim.
Had the Republican paramilitary organisations (IRA in it's different forms, INLA) responded similarly then the Peace Process and the Good Friday Agreement would have been destroyed.
This was undoubtedly a motive for many on the Loyalist/Orange side in 1998.
Fast forward to now...
Comments about the residents of the Garvaghy Road being pathetic or childish don't do justice to the fear of those two weeks in 1998. Improvised explosive devices were being thrown and the community was under siege. This wasn't Thommo in a balaclava: the Drumcree community knew that amongst the 20,000 or so men besieging their town were people who had carried out terrorist attacks, and probably some who had killed. And people who were young adults then are parents and grandparents now, and all of that trauma is returning in flashbacks.
And just as some within the Loyalist community wanted the Good Friday Agreement to fail then, so they do now. As people have observed in this thread, the logic of time and demographics is that a majority in Northern Ireland will support a vote for the reunification of Ireland in their lifetime. Add in Trump's unhelpful comments in Ireland, and those on the Loyalist side who have chosen retrenchment into hardened communities over the "Peace Dividend" offered by The Good Friday Agreement and a peaceful transition to a less inflammatory politics and more cohesive cross-community relationships, now feel more threatened than ever and see this as an opportunity for a last stand.
The continued failure of the Stormont Assembly may be a deliberate strategy from the Unionist/Loyalist politicians who see it's success as a pre-requisite for a Reunification Referendum. There is something quite Canute-ish about resisting the tides of demographics in this way.
Whatever else you think, on both sides this is about much more than parades and marching bands. The spectre of a reignited Troubles looms over Drumcree, and many within the security cordon are still haunted by the events of 1998. | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
