| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it 12:07 - Aug 15 with 2409 views | giant_stow |
Read this article yesterday which appears to be saying that defensive interceptor missiles are getting so good, that icbm missles, in small quantities at least, may soon be redundant.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/14/us-navy-hypersonic-interceptor-russi
And why haven't we got these Aegis ship things?! Sounds like we'd be better off piling those Trident billions into such defensive systems and conventional forces. [Post edited 15 Aug 2023 12:12]
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| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 12:10 - Aug 15 with 2385 views | BlueBadger |
Nukes are the nation-state equivalent of a sports car for insecure men.
Desperate over compensation for a small willy. |  |
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| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 12:13 - Aug 15 with 2342 views | giant_stow |
| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 12:10 - Aug 15 by BlueBadger |
Nukes are the nation-state equivalent of a sports car for insecure men.
Desperate over compensation for a small willy. |
I've always felt a little more supportive of our own nukes than that, but if they're not going to work, there really is no point. [Post edited 15 Aug 2023 12:14]
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:16 - Aug 15 with 2283 views | chicoazul |
Strong argument that nuclear weapons have been the only thing that have kept the peace between Western Europe and Russia for the last century. Didn’t do much for Asia or South America admittedly. |  |
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:21 - Aug 15 with 2256 views | giant_stow |
| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:16 - Aug 15 by chicoazul |
Strong argument that nuclear weapons have been the only thing that have kept the peace between Western Europe and Russia for the last century. Didn’t do much for Asia or South America admittedly. |
I kind of agree with that, but if the balance between offensive / defensive missiles is changing, that equation does too. Or in other words if one side feels they could survive a 'small' nuclear volley, their calculations may change. Bit like who Reagan's Star Wars system was so controversial. | |
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:23 - Aug 15 with 2238 views | chicoazul |
| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:21 - Aug 15 by giant_stow |
I kind of agree with that, but if the balance between offensive / defensive missiles is changing, that equation does too. Or in other words if one side feels they could survive a 'small' nuclear volley, their calculations may change. Bit like who Reagan's Star Wars system was so controversial. |
Don’t get me wrong. Trident is a deranged idea and completely useless, I don’t believe we can even fire it without the permission of the Yanks. You’re absolutely right that this money should be put into conventional instead. | |
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:25 - Aug 15 with 2220 views | giant_stow |
| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:23 - Aug 15 by chicoazul |
Don’t get me wrong. Trident is a deranged idea and completely useless, I don’t believe we can even fire it without the permission of the Yanks. You’re absolutely right that this money should be put into conventional instead. |
Sorry, reading my sh1t back, its all a bit simple-Simon! Just musing.
Edit: think you're right about the Yanks having final say. Sure I read that somewhere. [Post edited 15 Aug 2023 12:29]
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:33 - Aug 15 with 2166 views | Coastalblue |
| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:25 - Aug 15 by giant_stow |
Sorry, reading my sh1t back, its all a bit simple-Simon! Just musing.
Edit: think you're right about the Yanks having final say. Sure I read that somewhere. [Post edited 15 Aug 2023 12:29]
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I actually think the Yanks thing is an urban myth, pretty certain that's not the case but you do have to question if the money spent on trident is the best way to spend our defence money.
Something to make them redundant would be very welcome, though not having read the link, will do later, hopefully having a huge stockpile is not the way around it? |  |
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| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 12:41 - Aug 15 with 2127 views | J2BLUE |
| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 12:10 - Aug 15 by BlueBadger |
Nukes are the nation-state equivalent of a sports car for insecure men.
Desperate over compensation for a small willy. |
Over simplistic nonsense. |  |
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:42 - Aug 15 with 2128 views | StokieBlue |
I can't read that article but I don't think anyone has ever successfully intercepted an ICBM after the re-entry phase?
There is also the issue that each ICBM has 10 or so independent warheads, you'd need to intercept it before they split. It's probably more likely a laser system would work better as you can keep taking shots of you miss.
As for AEGIS, we have the Type 45 which is pretty similar. Neither will stop ICBMs.
It's entirely possible that the US already has a directed energy interceptor system, they were able to shoot down artillery shells with directed energy 15+ years ago in public and all that 50bn a year black budget must be spent on something.
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:43 - Aug 15 with 2121 views | Rob88 |
I don’t think Ukrainian citizens would agree with you. |  | | |
| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:51 - Aug 15 with 2038 views | giant_stow |
| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:42 - Aug 15 by StokieBlue |
I can't read that article but I don't think anyone has ever successfully intercepted an ICBM after the re-entry phase?
There is also the issue that each ICBM has 10 or so independent warheads, you'd need to intercept it before they split. It's probably more likely a laser system would work better as you can keep taking shots of you miss.
As for AEGIS, we have the Type 45 which is pretty similar. Neither will stop ICBMs.
It's entirely possible that the US already has a directed energy interceptor system, they were able to shoot down artillery shells with directed energy 15+ years ago in public and all that 50bn a year black budget must be spent on something.
SB |
I'm glad to say I've given up on my Telegraph subscription and read it with the aid of this: https://12ft.io/
Its a good article - not primary evidence obvs, but it does seem to suggest that such defensive missiles are a little better than you say, Interesting stuff on the budget black hole and all - cheers. | |
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:58 - Aug 15 with 2020 views | blueasfook |
I think that would be the best way for the arms race to go. If all sides developed such good interceptor systems that rendered nuclear weapons useless, there would be no need for them. However, I imagine they'd just develop new non-missile based delivery systems. For instance, the Ruskies have Poseidon which is basically an autonomous submarine with a huge nuclear payload that can be parked up off New York for instance and detonated. I imagine at some point in the not-too-distant future the big nuclear powers will have systems that will render missile based attacks useless. |  |
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| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 13:14 - Aug 15 with 1958 views | BlueBadger |
| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 12:41 - Aug 15 by J2BLUE |
Over simplistic nonsense. |
More like a BMW and s secretary then? | |
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| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 13:16 - Aug 15 with 1942 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 12:10 - Aug 15 by BlueBadger |
Nukes are the nation-state equivalent of a sports car for insecure men.
Desperate over compensation for a small willy. |
And yet without them, we would have gone into Russia and deposed Putin the way we did in Iraq with Sadam. |  |
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| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 13:28 - Aug 15 with 1883 views | Blueschev |
| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 13:16 - Aug 15 by GlasgowBlue |
And yet without them, we would have gone into Russia and deposed Putin the way we did in Iraq with Sadam. |
Without them I doubt the US would think Russia / Ukraine was worth bothering with. |  | | |
| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 14:18 - Aug 15 with 1756 views | giant_stow |
Thanks for the link - I'll read with my lunch. | |
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 14:50 - Aug 15 with 1708 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 12:51 - Aug 15 by giant_stow |
I'm glad to say I've given up on my Telegraph subscription and read it with the aid of this: https://12ft.io/
Its a good article - not primary evidence obvs, but it does seem to suggest that such defensive missiles are a little better than you say, Interesting stuff on the budget black hole and all - cheers. |
Isn’t there evidence that these weapons systems have performed poorly in Ukraine in regards to intercepting the new hypersonic missiles. It seems a great leap of faith to move from an active nuclear deterrent to a missile defence system which may or may not work.
There’s probably an argument that the nuclear deterrent has thus far prevented any Russian military incursion into NATO territory. Clearly from the statements he’s made in recent years, Putin regards the Baltic states as being ‘part of Russia’. Though he’d be outgunned by conventional forces, that he lives in delusion and surrounded by spineless yes men’. Russia has launched numerous invasions of Europe right up until the point the Western powers gained nuclear weapons. | | | |
| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 15:24 - Aug 15 with 1667 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Another argument against Trident or ending it on 13:28 - Aug 15 by Blueschev |
Without them I doubt the US would think Russia / Ukraine was worth bothering with. |
That deliberately misses the point. | |
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| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 17:21 - Aug 15 with 1582 views | giant_stow |
| Another argument against Trident or not renewing it on 14:50 - Aug 15 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Isn’t there evidence that these weapons systems have performed poorly in Ukraine in regards to intercepting the new hypersonic missiles. It seems a great leap of faith to move from an active nuclear deterrent to a missile defence system which may or may not work.
There’s probably an argument that the nuclear deterrent has thus far prevented any Russian military incursion into NATO territory. Clearly from the statements he’s made in recent years, Putin regards the Baltic states as being ‘part of Russia’. Though he’d be outgunned by conventional forces, that he lives in delusion and surrounded by spineless yes men’. Russia has launched numerous invasions of Europe right up until the point the Western powers gained nuclear weapons. |
I'd better no say anything for sure as I'm no expert, but I thought the Patriot system had done well against those non-maneuverable but fast Russian missiles. Sure I read something that said that because the Patriot batteires were the target, that actually made it more possible for them to shoot down such missiles, despite their speed. Could be wrong. [Post edited 15 Aug 2023 17:24]
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