| Ignoring the result. 14:47 - Dec 23 with 3112 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
How do we stop conceding early in games?
Teams seem to have figured out that if they press high and in numbers from the kick off they can often get something out of us. We obviously aren’t going to change our style, so as good as they have been defensively maybe Wolfenden and Burgess just aren’t good enough technically to play around that level of intense pressing.
Most teams can’t maintain it, so we get back into the game, but with the effectively Premier League squads, like Leeds as we’ve seen today, can maintain that press and we can’t get back at them.
Perhaps we’ll be on the lookout for very technically gifted CBs in the short to medium term that can play around a high press more easily. [Post edited 23 Dec 2023 14:47]
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| Ignoring the result. on 14:50 - Dec 23 with 1826 views | Herbivore |
Woolf didn't play today or when we conceded early against Rotherham. It's the first early goal we've conceded since the West Brom game as well so not sure that it's a problem that is endemic. Poor set piece defending both today and against West Brom so that's something to work on for sure. |  |
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| Ignoring the result. on 14:53 - Dec 23 with 1800 views | pointofblue |
Woolfenden at fault when he wasn't even playing. Interesting. |  |
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| Ignoring the result. on 14:53 - Dec 23 with 1798 views | ibbleobble |
Simple. Don’t play it out from the back for the first 15mins. Job done. | | | |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:53 - Dec 23 with 1794 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:50 - Dec 23 by Herbivore |
Woolf didn't play today or when we conceded early against Rotherham. It's the first early goal we've conceded since the West Brom game as well so not sure that it's a problem that is endemic. Poor set piece defending both today and against West Brom so that's something to work on for sure. |
I wasn’t just talking about today.
We’ve conceded more goals in the first 15 than any other championship side.
Our goal difference in 0-15 is -4 | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 14:54 - Dec 23 with 1773 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:53 - Dec 23 by pointofblue |
Woolfenden at fault when he wasn't even playing. Interesting. |
Another one.
I clearly wasn't just talking about today | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 14:55 - Dec 23 with 1755 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:53 - Dec 23 by ibbleobble |
Simple. Don’t play it out from the back for the first 15mins. Job done. |
That’s changing our style and ethos, and just won’t happen. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 14:57 - Dec 23 with 1733 views | bournemouthblue |
It's not rocket science if you're good enough to absorb our pressure and turn the ball over when we are high up the pitch, we are going to be vulnerable
Leeds have as pacey and vibrant an attacking 4 as you are ever likely to face at this level. It was clearly their strategy today too, it wasn't wave after wave but they ruthlessly punished some poor mistakes
They were better, collectively 1 - 11 today and overwhelmed us really, it was a very disappointing performance and quite humbling you have to say
It won't define our season but it does show what we are up against [Post edited 23 Dec 2023 15:00]
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| Ignoring the result. on 14:59 - Dec 23 with 1696 views | pointofblue |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:53 - Dec 23 by Cheltenham_Blue |
I wasn’t just talking about today.
We’ve conceded more goals in the first 15 than any other championship side.
Our goal difference in 0-15 is -4 |
Still, I think it's too simplistic to pin it purely on the centre backs. Maybe it speaks volumes that we conceded early in three of the games that Tuanzebe started too (Rotherham, Watford and Leeds)? | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 14:59 - Dec 23 with 1694 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
That’s 3 vital goals with balls into our box in two games, two last week and another today. I didn’t give us a much of a chance if we conceded in the first 30 today, so that first one was huge.
That needs to be addressed. Appears to be some ball watching at times, I know he’s a striker but Hirst just seems to try and get himself in the way without following the ball or man. |  | | |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:00 - Dec 23 with 1683 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:57 - Dec 23 by bournemouthblue |
It's not rocket science if you're good enough to absorb our pressure and turn the ball over when we are high up the pitch, we are going to be vulnerable
Leeds have as pacey and vibrant an attacking 4 as you are ever likely to face at this level. It was clearly their strategy today too, it wasn't wave after wave but they ruthlessly punished some poor mistakes
They were better, collectively 1 - 11 today and overwhelmed us really, it was a very disappointing performance and quite humbling you have to say
It won't define our season but it does show what we are up against [Post edited 23 Dec 2023 15:00]
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Forget today. We were up against a better side, and didn’t help ourselves.
But as I said, we’ve conceded more goals in the first 15 than anyone else.
Ignoring today, (best side we’ve played), How do we stop that, more generally? | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:02 - Dec 23 with 1642 views | ibbleobble |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:55 - Dec 23 by Cheltenham_Blue |
That’s changing our style and ethos, and just won’t happen. |
That’s called bring naïve against better sides. | | | |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:02 - Dec 23 with 1641 views | bournemouthblue |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:59 - Dec 23 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
That’s 3 vital goals with balls into our box in two games, two last week and another today. I didn’t give us a much of a chance if we conceded in the first 30 today, so that first one was huge.
That needs to be addressed. Appears to be some ball watching at times, I know he’s a striker but Hirst just seems to try and get himself in the way without following the ball or man. |
To get done by a set piece so early on, really is a sucker punch
I don't know what the strategy was today but it wasn't implemented very effectively
If you stop Hirst and keep tight to Chaplin, we do tend to be pretty ineffective. I still think against better attacking sides, we carry Chaplin and Broadhead a bit when we are without the ball. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:04 - Dec 23 with 1611 views | pointofblue |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:00 - Dec 23 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Forget today. We were up against a better side, and didn’t help ourselves.
But as I said, we’ve conceded more goals in the first 15 than anyone else.
Ignoring today, (best side we’ve played), How do we stop that, more generally? |
For me, strengthen the middle of the park, and go with a midfield three, but that would mean losing Chaplin for Taylor. At the moment I think it's very easy for teams to break and play through us.
We have a line up which basically seems set, Woolfenden or Tuanzebe aside. We play football in a way which suits them. If we change the approach, it goes beyond telling the starting eleven to play differently IMO. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:06 - Dec 23 with 1600 views | Herbivore |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:53 - Dec 23 by Cheltenham_Blue |
I wasn’t just talking about today.
We’ve conceded more goals in the first 15 than any other championship side.
Our goal difference in 0-15 is -4 |
Two poor set pieces today and against West Brom so there's something to work on there as those are cheap ones to give away. Same at home against Swansea actually. Most of the others were ones where we got done on the break (Rotherham, Plymouth, a few unlucky breaks of the ball as well (Brum away). Not sure it's the personnel that's the problem as that's changed from game to game, clearly some stuff we can work on there but most of the early goals came in that little run of five games from Plymouth to West Brom where we conceded first and early. Before today we'd had five games where we'd not conceded early. So definitely bits to improve on but not sure I agree with your description of the issue. [Post edited 23 Dec 2023 15:08]
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:08 - Dec 23 with 1573 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:04 - Dec 23 by pointofblue |
For me, strengthen the middle of the park, and go with a midfield three, but that would mean losing Chaplin for Taylor. At the moment I think it's very easy for teams to break and play through us.
We have a line up which basically seems set, Woolfenden or Tuanzebe aside. We play football in a way which suits them. If we change the approach, it goes beyond telling the starting eleven to play differently IMO. |
I think changing approach is 100% the one thing that KMc won’t do.
And why would he? It’s been such a success.
I guess it’s going to be a case of, over time getting players that fit his style better and better with each window. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:08 - Dec 23 with 1569 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:00 - Dec 23 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Forget today. We were up against a better side, and didn’t help ourselves.
But as I said, we’ve conceded more goals in the first 15 than anyone else.
Ignoring today, (best side we’ve played), How do we stop that, more generally? |
If you break games into 15 minute segments we have conceded more than we score in the first 15 minutes of each half. This is the biggest problem KMc has to sort out. The quality of the opposition doesn’t seem relevant, just poor defending.
For a start we could put someone on the nest post for corners early in each half.
https://www.twtd.co.uk/statistics/goal-times/ |  |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:09 - Dec 23 with 1563 views | GlasgowBlue |
We need to be more switched on.
It's something I have been critical of Woolfenden for on occasions but Axel needed to get to the rebound from Hladky's save before their striker. |  |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:12 - Dec 23 with 1529 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:59 - Dec 23 by pointofblue |
Still, I think it's too simplistic to pin it purely on the centre backs. Maybe it speaks volumes that we conceded early in three of the games that Tuanzebe started too (Rotherham, Watford and Leeds)? |
I wasn’t ‘pinning it on them’ I was asking if potentially their lack of technicality makes it harder for them to play around an aggressive press.
You can’t lay that on the full backs as they’re so integral to our style. That only leaves two, who have both, so far, playing any other style would be contenders for team of the season.
It’s a conundrum. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:13 - Dec 23 with 1521 views | pointofblue |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:08 - Dec 23 by Cheltenham_Blue |
I think changing approach is 100% the one thing that KMc won’t do.
And why would he? It’s been such a success.
I guess it’s going to be a case of, over time getting players that fit his style better and better with each window. |
As tough as it is to say, we're punching massively above our weight. This leaves a conundrum for January - go all in to buy players who are better than what we've got or trust the process, watch the finances, and work to a tighter budget.
If we were sitting about 12th right now, we'd be content with how the season had gone. A 4-0 reverse at Leeds would probably hurt less than it is right now. We'd be on track to make incremental changes to the squad without risking harmony. Now, it's a case of go for broke or keep to the same path. Either way carries risks. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:13 - Dec 23 with 1526 views | TheBoyBlue |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:02 - Dec 23 by ibbleobble |
That’s called bring naïve against better sides. |
But it hasn't done us much harm generally has it?
Trust the process, get better at it, don't abandon it. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:13 - Dec 23 with 1517 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ignoring the result. on 14:53 - Dec 23 by ibbleobble |
Simple. Don’t play it out from the back for the first 15mins. Job done. |
The goal had nothing to do with playing out from the back. Chaplin was fouled in their half, we had men committed to the attack and got caught on the counter. From the resulting corner we were not switched on enough to react to Hladky's save. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:14 - Dec 23 with 1496 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
How many teams have actually 'figured us out'? We've lost 3 games all season. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:15 - Dec 23 with 1487 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:06 - Dec 23 by Herbivore |
Two poor set pieces today and against West Brom so there's something to work on there as those are cheap ones to give away. Same at home against Swansea actually. Most of the others were ones where we got done on the break (Rotherham, Plymouth, a few unlucky breaks of the ball as well (Brum away). Not sure it's the personnel that's the problem as that's changed from game to game, clearly some stuff we can work on there but most of the early goals came in that little run of five games from Plymouth to West Brom where we conceded first and early. Before today we'd had five games where we'd not conceded early. So definitely bits to improve on but not sure I agree with your description of the issue. [Post edited 23 Dec 2023 15:08]
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Well my description of the issue comes from Opta. We are the team that concedes most often in the first 15 minutes. I’m not making this up. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:15 - Dec 23 with 1481 views | Herbivore |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:09 - Dec 23 by GlasgowBlue |
We need to be more switched on.
It's something I have been critical of Woolfenden for on occasions but Axel needed to get to the rebound from Hladky's save before their striker. |
Although I'm not sure any of the early goals have been directly attributable to Woolf so it's odd he gets singled out so often. | |
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| Ignoring the result. on 15:19 - Dec 23 with 1411 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Ignoring the result. on 15:13 - Dec 23 by GlasgowBlue |
The goal had nothing to do with playing out from the back. Chaplin was fouled in their half, we had men committed to the attack and got caught on the counter. From the resulting corner we were not switched on enough to react to Hladky's save. |
Go back and read the thread and then come back and tell me when I said anything about today’s goal?
Genuine post, asking a genuine question. Jesus Christ. Fk this, I’ll come back when everyone has calmed down I reckon. | |
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