| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless 11:12 - Dec 28 with 3064 views | redrickstuhaart |
Just seen this Pedro incident. A clearer red card is hard to imagine. "No violent conduct". Either their judgment is so addled from the pressure, or they are utterly corrupt. Or both. |  | | |  |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:13 - Dec 28 with 2382 views | Illinoisblue |
And still think Villa’s Duran was very harshly treated. 3-game ban for falling on top of somebody is crazy. And yet there’s Pedro showing clear intent and nothing happens. |  |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:27 - Dec 28 with 2334 views | bournemouthblue |
It's a real FA problem I'd suggest, the sooner there is an independent regulator the better frankly |  |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:28 - Dec 28 with 2340 views | Plums |
It seems to meet the Violent conduct test but if they deemed it a yellow then presumably that can't be applied because VAR doesn't have the mandate for that.
IFAB Law 12
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible. |  |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:28 - Dec 28 with 2331 views | bournemouthblue |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:13 - Dec 28 by Illinoisblue |
And still think Villa’s Duran was very harshly treated. 3-game ban for falling on top of somebody is crazy. And yet there’s Pedro showing clear intent and nothing happens. |
It's so inconsistent and seems to favour the big clubs
They don't seem to have half the problems overseas, it's clearly an FA problem | |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:42 - Dec 28 with 2277 views | Basuco |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:13 - Dec 28 by Illinoisblue |
And still think Villa’s Duran was very harshly treated. 3-game ban for falling on top of somebody is crazy. And yet there’s Pedro showing clear intent and nothing happens. |
And Duran rolled his ankle badly causing the fall, in real time and even more so in slow motion, it was purely an accident, but PL referee's appear to be getting more and more inconsistent each season and lack any form of leadership to correct this. |  | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:56 - Dec 28 with 2197 views | You_Bloo_Right |
Put out the call to Super Ref .....
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:59 - Dec 28 with 2182 views | redrickstuhaart |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:28 - Dec 28 by Plums |
It seems to meet the Violent conduct test but if they deemed it a yellow then presumably that can't be applied because VAR doesn't have the mandate for that.
IFAB Law 12
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible. |
Its also serious foul play. No room for any excuses here, but VAR strikes again.
Similarly, that wolves player on burns- fell directly into the second para. Dismissed as "petulant". I cant help thinking that many refs just arent bright enough to properly absorb and understand written rules. | | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 13:23 - Dec 28 with 2112 views | stonojnr |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:27 - Dec 28 by bournemouthblue |
It's a real FA problem I'd suggest, the sooner there is an independent regulator the better frankly |
how will the independent quango fix this ? | | | |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 06:58 - Dec 29 with 1702 views | Benters |
Just watched the highlights blimey ridiculous decision. |  |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 07:29 - Dec 29 with 1663 views | melbs_itfc |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:28 - Dec 28 by Plums |
It seems to meet the Violent conduct test but if they deemed it a yellow then presumably that can't be applied because VAR doesn't have the mandate for that.
IFAB Law 12
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible. |
The problem (admittedly amongst many) is also that aside from the sheer incompetence of the VAR who is not clearly not doing their job properly, there is little to no consequences either. So what - Howard Webb goes on the Sky show with Michael Owen a few weeks later and acknowledges yes there was a mistake and the VAR should have made a different decision. Then maybe if you are lucky the referee concerned doesn’t get selected for a game that week and that’s it! Ridiculous lack of accountability and that is why I strongly believe that we need an independent regulator that ensures a framework where the on -field referees and off -field VAR teams are completely separate entities in order to minimise any potential influence or bias in the decision making process, whether conscious or unconscious. Also, proper disciplinary measures need to be introduced , particularly for repeat offenders. | | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 08:38 - Dec 29 with 1600 views | Plums |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 07:29 - Dec 29 by melbs_itfc |
The problem (admittedly amongst many) is also that aside from the sheer incompetence of the VAR who is not clearly not doing their job properly, there is little to no consequences either. So what - Howard Webb goes on the Sky show with Michael Owen a few weeks later and acknowledges yes there was a mistake and the VAR should have made a different decision. Then maybe if you are lucky the referee concerned doesn’t get selected for a game that week and that’s it! Ridiculous lack of accountability and that is why I strongly believe that we need an independent regulator that ensures a framework where the on -field referees and off -field VAR teams are completely separate entities in order to minimise any potential influence or bias in the decision making process, whether conscious or unconscious. Also, proper disciplinary measures need to be introduced , particularly for repeat offenders. |
I hear this 'ridiculous lack of accountability' levelled at refs all the time and it doesn't stack up.
If a referee doesn't get a game because of a disciplinary as you describe then they don't get a match fee. That's accountability right there. If I lost a week's money for making a mistake, I'd be a very poor man and I suspect most of us wouldn't put up with it. I know players wouldn't.
The refs also have every game filmed, clipped and analysed to a fine degree and an internal league table displayed so all can see how each other is doing. It's a tough gig on and off the pitch.
The independent regulator is highly unlikely to go anywhere near the laws of the game - it'll be about governance - as it should be. | |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 08:44 - Dec 29 with 1582 views | Vaughan8 |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:13 - Dec 28 by Illinoisblue |
And still think Villa’s Duran was very harshly treated. 3-game ban for falling on top of somebody is crazy. And yet there’s Pedro showing clear intent and nothing happens. |
It's all a bit stupid, but they have to have taken "intent" out the equation.
if a legitimate tackle is done, but naturally the follow threw just seems to go a bit high, they banish the red card.
Duran, despite maybe not having any other option but to fall like that, is still "dangerous play" by stamping on it.
It's stupid, but they seem to be the rules | | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 08:49 - Dec 29 with 1565 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:13 - Dec 28 by Illinoisblue |
And still think Villa’s Duran was very harshly treated. 3-game ban for falling on top of somebody is crazy. And yet there’s Pedro showing clear intent and nothing happens. |
I haven't seen the Pedro one but I agree Duran's was harsh. VAR really should have got the ref to look at the replay to decide whether he felt it was deliberate because the replays suggest it wasn't and there is no way the officials could have told in real time. If the ref decided there was after seeing the replay fair enough but it didn't look that way to me. I found Gallagher's defence of it on ref watch as poor as his attempt to justify the non-penalty for Chaplin when he was taken out in the box. He appears to feel obliged to back up the on-field ref all the time. |  |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 09:06 - Dec 29 with 1529 views | BloomBlue |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 08:38 - Dec 29 by Plums |
I hear this 'ridiculous lack of accountability' levelled at refs all the time and it doesn't stack up.
If a referee doesn't get a game because of a disciplinary as you describe then they don't get a match fee. That's accountability right there. If I lost a week's money for making a mistake, I'd be a very poor man and I suspect most of us wouldn't put up with it. I know players wouldn't.
The refs also have every game filmed, clipped and analysed to a fine degree and an internal league table displayed so all can see how each other is doing. It's a tough gig on and off the pitch.
The independent regulator is highly unlikely to go anywhere near the laws of the game - it'll be about governance - as it should be. |
Precisely this.
Refs are human they will make mistakes like every player on the pitch. But as you say, if a ref doesn't get a game they don't get a match fee. Player makes a mistake in a game they don't get a deduction in pay.
Same in any workplace, make a mistake at work do people automatically get a reduction on that week/month pay?
I will never understand this targeting of refs, humans make mistakes. But we're now heading towards a world where fans, none of whom are ever perfect, are expecting refs to be 100% perfect. Even though it's impossible for a ref to have 360° view of every incident on a pitch.
Fans only ever moan about refs when things go against them, for example you never heard Town fans moaning refs were corrupt when Eric Gates was constantly diving and getting freekicks which on more than one occasion ended up as a goal for Town. |  | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 09:09 - Dec 29 with 1522 views | cooperd5 |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 09:06 - Dec 29 by BloomBlue |
Precisely this.
Refs are human they will make mistakes like every player on the pitch. But as you say, if a ref doesn't get a game they don't get a match fee. Player makes a mistake in a game they don't get a deduction in pay.
Same in any workplace, make a mistake at work do people automatically get a reduction on that week/month pay?
I will never understand this targeting of refs, humans make mistakes. But we're now heading towards a world where fans, none of whom are ever perfect, are expecting refs to be 100% perfect. Even though it's impossible for a ref to have 360° view of every incident on a pitch.
Fans only ever moan about refs when things go against them, for example you never heard Town fans moaning refs were corrupt when Eric Gates was constantly diving and getting freekicks which on more than one occasion ended up as a goal for Town. |
Premier league refs are employed by PGMOL so get paid whatever. |  | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 10:15 - Dec 29 with 1429 views | Plums |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 09:09 - Dec 29 by cooperd5 |
Premier league refs are employed by PGMOL so get paid whatever. |
Sorry, that's not strictly correct. They get a relatively small basic salary but the vast majority of their income is from the fee per game - exactly the same as grassroots referees but the numbers are obviously higher. | |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:05 - Dec 29 with 1377 views | redrickstuhaart |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 08:38 - Dec 29 by Plums |
I hear this 'ridiculous lack of accountability' levelled at refs all the time and it doesn't stack up.
If a referee doesn't get a game because of a disciplinary as you describe then they don't get a match fee. That's accountability right there. If I lost a week's money for making a mistake, I'd be a very poor man and I suspect most of us wouldn't put up with it. I know players wouldn't.
The refs also have every game filmed, clipped and analysed to a fine degree and an internal league table displayed so all can see how each other is doing. It's a tough gig on and off the pitch.
The independent regulator is highly unlikely to go anywhere near the laws of the game - it'll be about governance - as it should be. |
Prem refs are salaried arent they? | | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:05 - Dec 29 with 1373 views | redrickstuhaart |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 08:44 - Dec 29 by Vaughan8 |
It's all a bit stupid, but they have to have taken "intent" out the equation.
if a legitimate tackle is done, but naturally the follow threw just seems to go a bit high, they banish the red card.
Duran, despite maybe not having any other option but to fall like that, is still "dangerous play" by stamping on it.
It's stupid, but they seem to be the rules |
The rules are written down. Referees literally do not follow them, but create their own interpretations. Hence hopeless inconsistency and absurd decisions. | | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:08 - Dec 29 with 1362 views | redrickstuhaart |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 09:06 - Dec 29 by BloomBlue |
Precisely this.
Refs are human they will make mistakes like every player on the pitch. But as you say, if a ref doesn't get a game they don't get a match fee. Player makes a mistake in a game they don't get a deduction in pay.
Same in any workplace, make a mistake at work do people automatically get a reduction on that week/month pay?
I will never understand this targeting of refs, humans make mistakes. But we're now heading towards a world where fans, none of whom are ever perfect, are expecting refs to be 100% perfect. Even though it's impossible for a ref to have 360° view of every incident on a pitch.
Fans only ever moan about refs when things go against them, for example you never heard Town fans moaning refs were corrupt when Eric Gates was constantly diving and getting freekicks which on more than one occasion ended up as a goal for Town. |
The point, of course, is that with the benefit of var, such obvious mistakes (see also Leicester penalty incident for instance) shouldn't happen or should be very rare indeed. So what else is going on here?
Unconscious bias, boys club supporting one another, pressure from media and FA which may well favour the box office clubs, second guessing themselves because of uncertainty, lack of understanding of what the rules actually say. And probably other stuff too.
Then we have the FA setting bizarre examples, supporting nonsensical decisions by upholding them, failing to deal with the obvious (Cunha for instance) professionally and efficiently in a consistent manner, encouraging diving and cheating by refusing to address it etc etc. [Post edited 29 Dec 2024 11:10]
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:13 - Dec 29 with 1340 views | melbs_itfc |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 08:38 - Dec 29 by Plums |
I hear this 'ridiculous lack of accountability' levelled at refs all the time and it doesn't stack up.
If a referee doesn't get a game because of a disciplinary as you describe then they don't get a match fee. That's accountability right there. If I lost a week's money for making a mistake, I'd be a very poor man and I suspect most of us wouldn't put up with it. I know players wouldn't.
The refs also have every game filmed, clipped and analysed to a fine degree and an internal league table displayed so all can see how each other is doing. It's a tough gig on and off the pitch.
The independent regulator is highly unlikely to go anywhere near the laws of the game - it'll be about governance - as it should be. |
Ok fair enough, but I am genuinely interested in your view regarding my point on unconscious /conscious bias due to the referees’ professional and personal relationship dynamics potentially impacting on the in-match decision making. Here is just one such example that has been disclosed to the public.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/25/mike-dean-admits-avoiding-var-c | | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:17 - Dec 29 with 1328 views | redrickstuhaart |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:13 - Dec 29 by melbs_itfc |
Ok fair enough, but I am genuinely interested in your view regarding my point on unconscious /conscious bias due to the referees’ professional and personal relationship dynamics potentially impacting on the in-match decision making. Here is just one such example that has been disclosed to the public.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/25/mike-dean-admits-avoiding-var-c |
I think that is what happened on the Leicester penalty incident with Burns.
The var guy knew he would be creating an impossible situation given that the ref had just harshly red carded during a passage of play which ought not to have happened.
And that, is dishonest and corrupt- though not in the sense of one club paying for it. Suspect there is far more of this going on than is obvious.
Then we have the FA backing them up rather than addressing obvious errors. They will say they cannot deal with Pedro because it was looked at on the day, despite being patently and indisuptably incorrect. [Post edited 29 Dec 2024 11:19]
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:34 - Dec 29 with 1301 views | Plums |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:13 - Dec 29 by melbs_itfc |
Ok fair enough, but I am genuinely interested in your view regarding my point on unconscious /conscious bias due to the referees’ professional and personal relationship dynamics potentially impacting on the in-match decision making. Here is just one such example that has been disclosed to the public.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/25/mike-dean-admits-avoiding-var-c |
As BloomBlue has explained earlier, they are human beings. Of course there are relationships in their workplace as with any other. In the cited example, Mike Dean stood down for two months so there was a consequence and there's no way that incident wasn't reviewed and lessons learned from it.
People seem to want perfection delivered in a matter of seconds in a situation which has multiple variables, perspectives and ambiguous laws - not to mention players simulating impacts at every twist and turn. It's an impossible task. No structural redesign is going to change that. | |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:42 - Dec 29 with 1291 views | redrickstuhaart |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:34 - Dec 29 by Plums |
As BloomBlue has explained earlier, they are human beings. Of course there are relationships in their workplace as with any other. In the cited example, Mike Dean stood down for two months so there was a consequence and there's no way that incident wasn't reviewed and lessons learned from it.
People seem to want perfection delivered in a matter of seconds in a situation which has multiple variables, perspectives and ambiguous laws - not to mention players simulating impacts at every twist and turn. It's an impossible task. No structural redesign is going to change that. |
Of course they are humans. VAR should rule out the vast majority of obvious errors, but it is not. So what is happening and why?
Mike Dean admitted it. It is a refs job to be impartial- no excuse for what he describes at all. How much more of it goes on do you think? | | | |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:50 - Dec 29 with 1257 views | Plums |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 11:42 - Dec 29 by redrickstuhaart |
Of course they are humans. VAR should rule out the vast majority of obvious errors, but it is not. So what is happening and why?
Mike Dean admitted it. It is a refs job to be impartial- no excuse for what he describes at all. How much more of it goes on do you think? |
There is nothing in Mike Dean's account that suggests he wasn't impartial i.e. favouring one side over the other.
How much of the sort of incident described goes on? I don't know - but what I do know is the officials' decisions are pored over by themselves, their peers and observers on a match by match basis so they are all acutely aware of any errors and omissions.
VAR and the scrutiny of it is in danger of making football disappear further up its own backside than it already is. | |
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| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:01 - Dec 29 with 1238 views | CrayonKing |
| These refs and VAR are utterly clueless on 12:28 - Dec 28 by Plums |
It seems to meet the Violent conduct test but if they deemed it a yellow then presumably that can't be applied because VAR doesn't have the mandate for that.
IFAB Law 12
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible. |
During the game they cut to Mark Clattenburg who claimed that because no contact was made then it wasn't violent conduct because intent isn't in the rules any more.
But that, assuming its up to date, clearly says "regardless of whether contact is made".
Guess it shows what a mess the rules are if a supposed refereeing expert can't remember them all! |  | | |
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