| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? 09:21 - Aug 20 with 6535 views | Mullet |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/ipswich-town/table
I see the thrust of Mick's comments has inspired a column in the Football League paper this weekend. Both he and Warnock top the table. Both unfashionable old sods that get under people's skin.
You've got big spending Wolves and Leeds sandwiched between is Warburton's Forest. Then Ollie in the final playoff place.
I know the season won't pan out that way, but when the bottom 5 are basically low spending relegation fodder either newly promoted and trying to get up to speed or teams who have flirted with relegation for a while it's a telling start to the season isn't it? Only burton have a manager with Championship nous and a set up way below the level of the rest of the league.
The next layer sees Norwich, Fulham, Reading and Villa the theme? Inexperienced coaches, massive spending and team rebuilding in the first three, Steve Bruce and the wholesale mess he's helped stir about and steady at Villa seems an understandable outlier in the pack.
Is it starting to show how valuable experience in the dug out is at this level? Last season must start to look more like Mick's time in the game made the difference in keeping us up as the investment wasn't there. We've bought well and replaced key figures in a timely manner this time around.
When you look at the mess a lot of clubs are in, we've got players missing because of injury not imbalances in recruitment. We'll probably finish around 10th this season, who knows but the start and the momentum created is a big factor for us. Chasing the pack without the resources hurts teams and you have to wonder how close Brentford are to outstaying their welcome in this tier.
I wonder what kind of value managers have relative to players these days? I know Evans values Mick around the same as a key signing each year, Rafa was on millions a year but the squad he had reflected that sort of investment too.
As parachute payments distort the league more and more, do you think chairmen will start to look at throwing more money at men like Mick and Colin, even Ollie as time goes on? Rather than several times the outlay on players alone? |  |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:36 - Aug 20 with 5739 views | brogansnose |
I do like the fact that Sir Mick and Colin top the league, with Tony ' Baseball Cap ' Pulis second in the league above.
Perhaps they should be given German or Portugese pseudonyms. |  | | |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:40 - Aug 20 with 5714 views | ITFCBlues |
I completely changed my mind on Mick around October/November last season when it become abundantly obvious he's been working with far less than any of the other sides at the top.
As nice as it'd be to play tiki taka, our best chance of getting out of this league with our budget is a manager like Mick who's been around the block |  |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:44 - Aug 20 with 5686 views | StokieBlue |
Let's not rewrite history here, last season was an aberration with some highly dubious decisions by MM. Obviously the investment wasn't there but that didn't drive all the decisions he made. Fulham at home was the worst I think I have ever seen us play, right up there with the real bad times.
This season he's gotten the players he wanted and has promoted youngsters and it's incredibly promising. My hopes have certainly been boosted and I look forward to football again - that's how it should be.
Let's get behind the team and MM, nobody can deny he's doing the right things now but we don't have to be revisionist on history either.
COYB.
SB |  |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:52 - Aug 20 with 5637 views | Mullet |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:44 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
Let's not rewrite history here, last season was an aberration with some highly dubious decisions by MM. Obviously the investment wasn't there but that didn't drive all the decisions he made. Fulham at home was the worst I think I have ever seen us play, right up there with the real bad times.
This season he's gotten the players he wanted and has promoted youngsters and it's incredibly promising. My hopes have certainly been boosted and I look forward to football again - that's how it should be.
Let's get behind the team and MM, nobody can deny he's doing the right things now but we don't have to be revisionist on history either.
COYB.
SB |
Sounds like you're rewriting history to justify some of the over the top criticism, there's been no suggestion of that from me.
Those booing Mick at QPR because they hated Douglas and trying to justify it spring to mind. But not accepting that Douglas was the only fit option available at the time was one of the bizarre moments that spring to mind.
I'm not sure anyone would suggest managers are faultless or don't make mistakes, but the refusal to accept the kids weren't ready/good enough was a big blindspot of those desperate to pin everything on MM too.
What he did do was take what he could and ensure we stayed up, that's good management even if it wasn't good football. We're seeing the flipside of that approach this month. | |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:57 - Aug 20 with 5607 views | StokieBlue |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:52 - Aug 20 by Mullet |
Sounds like you're rewriting history to justify some of the over the top criticism, there's been no suggestion of that from me.
Those booing Mick at QPR because they hated Douglas and trying to justify it spring to mind. But not accepting that Douglas was the only fit option available at the time was one of the bizarre moments that spring to mind.
I'm not sure anyone would suggest managers are faultless or don't make mistakes, but the refusal to accept the kids weren't ready/good enough was a big blindspot of those desperate to pin everything on MM too.
What he did do was take what he could and ensure we stayed up, that's good management even if it wasn't good football. We're seeing the flipside of that approach this month. |
I would argue this is revisionist:
"Last season must start to look more like Mick's time in the game made the difference in keeping us up as the investment wasn't there."
I think that sentence is a really huge stretch and an attempt to justify some really strange decisions last year. Nowhere have I supported the boo boys. It could be argued that some tactical decisions made costs us points and put us in a position where we needed saving.
Things are certainly looking good at the moment, fingers crossed it will continue and we can have an enjoyable and successful season.
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:07 - Aug 20 with 5557 views | Mullet |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:57 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
I would argue this is revisionist:
"Last season must start to look more like Mick's time in the game made the difference in keeping us up as the investment wasn't there."
I think that sentence is a really huge stretch and an attempt to justify some really strange decisions last year. Nowhere have I supported the boo boys. It could be argued that some tactical decisions made costs us points and put us in a position where we needed saving.
Things are certainly looking good at the moment, fingers crossed it will continue and we can have an enjoyable and successful season.
SB |
It's entirely separate from "strange decisions" and referring directly to how the season ended you're conflating the two to turn this is into a justification for the outrage last season.
Some of which was justified, some went way beyond.
What stopped us going down in your opinion? We took on two very different outcasts in the shape of Huws and Diagouraga, approached games to get the most of what was available to us. Do you put that entirely down to things beyond Mick's control? That he had no say in stopping us from being relegated?
It's pretty clear we suffered horrendous injuries and already had a squad ill-equipped for a decent run, do you put down say the change to 3-5-2 as something Mick takes no responsibility for?
Compared to this season, you can see how the right players leads to a team approach and style that is far more coherent and recognisable. If his influence means "some tactical decisions made costs us points and put us in a position where we needed saving. " How can you possibly argue that the reverse isn't the reason for the turnaround?
There are times having such limited quality and bodies forced Mick's hands and he got it wrong, but also there were games where he must have got it right by your logic. | |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:09 - Aug 20 with 5541 views | Mullet |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:36 - Aug 20 by brogansnose |
I do like the fact that Sir Mick and Colin top the league, with Tony ' Baseball Cap ' Pulis second in the league above.
Perhaps they should be given German or Portugese pseudonyms. |
Pulis is an odd character isn't he? I can't warm to him or Ollie to be honest. Undeniable that they are doing something different to the current fashion and making it work for now too.
Mark Hughes looks onto something at Stoke finally too given it's early days. Seems to like a "glamour signing" in amongst Prem level "cloggers" but he had them set up very well looking at MOTD this morning. | |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:16 - Aug 20 with 5497 views | homer_123 |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:44 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
Let's not rewrite history here, last season was an aberration with some highly dubious decisions by MM. Obviously the investment wasn't there but that didn't drive all the decisions he made. Fulham at home was the worst I think I have ever seen us play, right up there with the real bad times.
This season he's gotten the players he wanted and has promoted youngsters and it's incredibly promising. My hopes have certainly been boosted and I look forward to football again - that's how it should be.
Let's get behind the team and MM, nobody can deny he's doing the right things now but we don't have to be revisionist on history either.
COYB.
SB |
if we are talking revisionist then I have to say that Fulham were the best footballingteam at PR last season. It was less to do with us being poor than Fulham were simply too good. It's a bad example to use.
You are quite correct though that his decision making last season was at odds with what went before. [Post edited 20 Aug 2017 10:17]
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:22 - Aug 20 with 5461 views | groovyASH |
As lovely and magnificent as our start has been, and Cardiff's for Bluebirds fans, we are only 4 league games in. We have short term success at the moment, under challenging circumstances considering resources and injuries, let's see if MM can turn this into a memorable season |  |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:23 - Aug 20 with 5451 views | No9 |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:16 - Aug 20 by homer_123 |
if we are talking revisionist then I have to say that Fulham were the best footballingteam at PR last season. It was less to do with us being poor than Fulham were simply too good. It's a bad example to use.
You are quite correct though that his decision making last season was at odds with what went before. [Post edited 20 Aug 2017 10:17]
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Town were very poor & Fulham missed a lot of goals their No.11 should have had a hat trick & the Beccles boy missed a few. |  | | |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:25 - Aug 20 with 5428 views | homer_123 |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:23 - Aug 20 by No9 |
Town were very poor & Fulham missed a lot of goals their No.11 should have had a hat trick & the Beccles boy missed a few. |
Fulham made us look bad...one of those games you have to hold your hand up and say we were done by the better side.
You're comment confirms that as well, they did us AND missed countless more opportunities to score. | |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:28 - Aug 20 with 5406 views | homer_123 |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:22 - Aug 20 by groovyASH |
As lovely and magnificent as our start has been, and Cardiff's for Bluebirds fans, we are only 4 league games in. We have short term success at the moment, under challenging circumstances considering resources and injuries, let's see if MM can turn this into a memorable season |
Last seasons low base means we are all probably feeling extra pleased with the results.
The reality is though, given the injury and virus situ, that's five cracking results, no matter how you look at it.
I think we can all agree it's heading in the right direction...it's a long season though. | |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:31 - Aug 20 with 5391 views | No9 |
It maybe worth pointing out that it is still August.
Town have accrued 12 points & as long as nothing daft is done they will not be taken away however, there is a long way to go. | | | |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:36 - Aug 20 with 5361 views | groovyASH |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:28 - Aug 20 by homer_123 |
Last seasons low base means we are all probably feeling extra pleased with the results.
The reality is though, given the injury and virus situ, that's five cracking results, no matter how you look at it.
I think we can all agree it's heading in the right direction...it's a long season though. |
Absolutely right, fully agree, been an amazing start nobody saw coming :-) | |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:42 - Aug 20 with 5335 views | BlueBadger |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:22 - Aug 20 by groovyASH |
As lovely and magnificent as our start has been, and Cardiff's for Bluebirds fans, we are only 4 league games in. We have short term success at the moment, under challenging circumstances considering resources and injuries, let's see if MM can turn this into a memorable season |
At the moment it's a bit like the start od Keane's second season where we had a few good results. That said, Mick is infinitely more competent than the Famous One so whilst we may not keep this up I don't think we'll fall into relegation danger this season. |  |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 11:00 - Aug 20 with 5274 views | Guthrum |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:31 - Aug 20 by No9 |
It maybe worth pointing out that it is still August.
Town have accrued 12 points & as long as nothing daft is done they will not be taken away however, there is a long way to go. |
We're a quarter of the way to probable safety and 12.8% of the way from a total which would have guaranteed automatic promotion in any of the last six seasons - from just 8.7% of the games. |  |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 11:09 - Aug 20 with 5254 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:44 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
Let's not rewrite history here, last season was an aberration with some highly dubious decisions by MM. Obviously the investment wasn't there but that didn't drive all the decisions he made. Fulham at home was the worst I think I have ever seen us play, right up there with the real bad times.
This season he's gotten the players he wanted and has promoted youngsters and it's incredibly promising. My hopes have certainly been boosted and I look forward to football again - that's how it should be.
Let's get behind the team and MM, nobody can deny he's doing the right things now but we don't have to be revisionist on history either.
COYB.
SB |
I agree with this.
I have always liked Mick but I think he went a bit bonkers last season and made some highly questionable decisions and half way though the season I wanted him gone.
Whether we keep this current run up is questionable but I admire him for his determination - and I genuinely think he might have had a little re think over the style he was playing due to the reaction of some fans and the season ticket drop.
Unlike some football experts on here I knew nothing about Garner or Waghorn until they signed but I liked the sound of them after reading up a bit.
Here's hoping! |  |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 11:27 - Aug 20 with 5171 views | ParisBlue |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 11:09 - Aug 20 by Lord_Lucan |
I agree with this.
I have always liked Mick but I think he went a bit bonkers last season and made some highly questionable decisions and half way though the season I wanted him gone.
Whether we keep this current run up is questionable but I admire him for his determination - and I genuinely think he might have had a little re think over the style he was playing due to the reaction of some fans and the season ticket drop.
Unlike some football experts on here I knew nothing about Garner or Waghorn until they signed but I liked the sound of them after reading up a bit.
Here's hoping! |
I think Mick suffered last season because he had got it *very* wrong the previous summer. Fraser and Knudsen aside, the remaining signings (of which there were plenty) added no quality to a squad that was already showing some signs of needing freshening up. Even if we had just reached the play-offs.
The idea of buying better players than we have and supplimenting with youth if/when required is refreshing. |  |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 16:18 - Aug 20 with 4888 views | Mullet |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 10:22 - Aug 20 by groovyASH |
As lovely and magnificent as our start has been, and Cardiff's for Bluebirds fans, we are only 4 league games in. We have short term success at the moment, under challenging circumstances considering resources and injuries, let's see if MM can turn this into a memorable season |
The fact we're even talking about "a memorable season" weeks after being odds on for relegation with the bookies is a good sign. I'm not sure suggesting we might make somewhere around 10th constitutes that for many either.
Another interesting trend is the net spend of clubs is being totally distorted. The holes and unknown fees being paid means someone like Bolton are turning over players at a high rate but hardly spending anything compared to say Wolves.
We've benefited from 2 Cardiff players and they clearly have the spending power on us, but we were also 17th or so on wages last term. I can't imagine we've moved much in that particular league.
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/transfers/wettbewerb/GB2
Teams like the budgies have actually gleaned a profit of £5-6m apparently, even with a pinch of salt that shows they're having to rebalance now the parachute money is drying up.
You wonder what benefit a manager like Mick or Colin in your corner has over the months of a long hard season. Rotherham got another year at this level for example, we've had another 5 and you can imagine the ramifications for either club relatively speaking. | |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 16:46 - Aug 20 with 4835 views | jaykay |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 11:09 - Aug 20 by Lord_Lucan |
I agree with this.
I have always liked Mick but I think he went a bit bonkers last season and made some highly questionable decisions and half way though the season I wanted him gone.
Whether we keep this current run up is questionable but I admire him for his determination - and I genuinely think he might have had a little re think over the style he was playing due to the reaction of some fans and the season ticket drop.
Unlike some football experts on here I knew nothing about Garner or Waghorn until they signed but I liked the sound of them after reading up a bit.
Here's hoping! |
agree, i am neither a mick hater or lover. credit where it is do,the 2 rangers players have made a big difference. like others i thought some of his decisions did deserve some stick.
e.g. playing douglas against brum at home,brought him in then he never got in the 18 again after that.the bart saga after his father died,he only got back in after gerken got injured,when most thought he the better keeper.
now with the young guns pushing hard and the injured players getting fit,all bodes well |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 22:42 - Aug 20 with 4561 views | howdonblue |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:44 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
Let's not rewrite history here, last season was an aberration with some highly dubious decisions by MM. Obviously the investment wasn't there but that didn't drive all the decisions he made. Fulham at home was the worst I think I have ever seen us play, right up there with the real bad times.
This season he's gotten the players he wanted and has promoted youngsters and it's incredibly promising. My hopes have certainly been boosted and I look forward to football again - that's how it should be.
Let's get behind the team and MM, nobody can deny he's doing the right things now but we don't have to be revisionist on history either.
COYB.
SB |
Quite right ðŸ‘
We must applaud Mcarthy on the value for money he has got for his signings this season !
But not get overly carried away |  | | |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 08:29 - Aug 21 with 4337 views | Mullet |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 11:27 - Aug 20 by ParisBlue |
I think Mick suffered last season because he had got it *very* wrong the previous summer. Fraser and Knudsen aside, the remaining signings (of which there were plenty) added no quality to a squad that was already showing some signs of needing freshening up. Even if we had just reached the play-offs.
The idea of buying better players than we have and supplimenting with youth if/when required is refreshing. |
His biggest problem/mistake was that he we had players like Coke kicking around injured. Fans seemed hate Coke and I don't know why, he did no more or less than say McDonnell did at Barnsley.
We were left with having to play Dougie most games partly because of so many injuries and the kids not being up to it. One of those factors has changed.
Also plumping for Leon Best. I thought it was a good idea, and Best had probably the most natural ability combined with athleticism in the squad last season bar maybe Lawrence, but I've rarely seen a player so unable to use it.
I know second hand Best hated the dressing room and didn't fit in and his signing was entirely un-Mick, like Cameron Stewart when Mick does these things out of character they invariably don't pan out. Jutkiewicz might have been a safer option but maybe have seen us limp 4-5 places higher with no real galvanising effect.
It's interesting the immediate response was to turn the thread into justifying last season's criticisms and a few latching on to that, but it does expose this idea that Mick's "strange decisions" were borne out of necessity (we had Best on trial leading up to Murphy going) and the lack of cash floating around. ME had to inject more to remould the team in January after all.
The theme for recruitment this year seems simple and more of the usual fayre we've seen from Mick, with the kids being used but comfortable and more importantly ready. The circumstances of both seasons make you wonder where the line is for influence, again looking at Warnock over the last 2 years or considering we supposedly wanted Garner last summer etc. | |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 08:38 - Aug 21 with 4316 views | Superfrans |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:57 - Aug 20 by StokieBlue |
I would argue this is revisionist:
"Last season must start to look more like Mick's time in the game made the difference in keeping us up as the investment wasn't there."
I think that sentence is a really huge stretch and an attempt to justify some really strange decisions last year. Nowhere have I supported the boo boys. It could be argued that some tactical decisions made costs us points and put us in a position where we needed saving.
Things are certainly looking good at the moment, fingers crossed it will continue and we can have an enjoyable and successful season.
SB |
"Revisionist" is where the person making a statement held an entirely different view before. And, to be fair to Mullet, he has been consistent in his position on Mick, from what I have seen.
As for "highly dubious decisions" - making decisions different to those that we individually might make doesn't make them "highly dubious", it simply makes them different. I don think Mick made any highly dubious decisions last season at all. He simply made different calls, based on the information and insight that he had at the time. |  |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:06 - Aug 21 with 4234 views | Superfrans |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 08:29 - Aug 21 by Mullet |
His biggest problem/mistake was that he we had players like Coke kicking around injured. Fans seemed hate Coke and I don't know why, he did no more or less than say McDonnell did at Barnsley.
We were left with having to play Dougie most games partly because of so many injuries and the kids not being up to it. One of those factors has changed.
Also plumping for Leon Best. I thought it was a good idea, and Best had probably the most natural ability combined with athleticism in the squad last season bar maybe Lawrence, but I've rarely seen a player so unable to use it.
I know second hand Best hated the dressing room and didn't fit in and his signing was entirely un-Mick, like Cameron Stewart when Mick does these things out of character they invariably don't pan out. Jutkiewicz might have been a safer option but maybe have seen us limp 4-5 places higher with no real galvanising effect.
It's interesting the immediate response was to turn the thread into justifying last season's criticisms and a few latching on to that, but it does expose this idea that Mick's "strange decisions" were borne out of necessity (we had Best on trial leading up to Murphy going) and the lack of cash floating around. ME had to inject more to remould the team in January after all.
The theme for recruitment this year seems simple and more of the usual fayre we've seen from Mick, with the kids being used but comfortable and more importantly ready. The circumstances of both seasons make you wonder where the line is for influence, again looking at Warnock over the last 2 years or considering we supposedly wanted Garner last summer etc. |
The difference this season is simply that we have struck gold in signing Garner and Waghorn. They've come in, clearly play the McCarthy way, play for the team, don't appear to be moaners and love scoring goals. They've also got off to a flyer, and we all know how important momentum is.
For the past few years, we've been shopping in the equivalent of the thrift market - picking up rejects and slightly damaged goods, while everyone else has been paying top dollar for what are perceived to be finished articles. Sometimes this means you pick up the likes of Noel Hunt (a tryer, but not a consistent scorer), Kieffer Moore (a total punt, but for no real financial risk), Brett Pitman (a scorer, but not a team player) - and sometimes you strike lucky, as we clearly have with Horny and Garner.
The idea that Waghorn and Garner came to us for a little over £1m for the pair of them (as now seems to be the case), while Burnley are about to pay £15m for Chris Wood does my head in, to be honest,
As a result of our attacking threat, the defence knows it just needs to do its job and we'll more than likely score. Thats a lovely position to be in.
That said, our first big test (Palace aside) comes vs Fulham on Saturday. That's a tough match, against a very good side. If we get a point from that game, we'll be on our way. | |
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| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 09:12 - Aug 21 with 4215 views | StokieBlue |
| Mick and Colin proving people wrong? Changing second tier football? on 08:38 - Aug 21 by Superfrans |
"Revisionist" is where the person making a statement held an entirely different view before. And, to be fair to Mullet, he has been consistent in his position on Mick, from what I have seen.
As for "highly dubious decisions" - making decisions different to those that we individually might make doesn't make them "highly dubious", it simply makes them different. I don think Mick made any highly dubious decisions last season at all. He simply made different calls, based on the information and insight that he had at the time. |
"I don think Mick made any highly dubious decisions last season at all."
And that is the issue in one sentence. It's totally irrelevant what anyone writes or justifications they make because you are totally blinkered and refuse to look at the situation objectively. Has MM ever done anything you don't agree with?
Most people would agree some of the calls were bizarre, not to mention the baiting of fans in interviews.
Thankfully it looks like he's had a rethink over the summer, made some very astute signings and thought about the style of play and it's paying dividends. Long may it continue. In the end we all want to see a successful town, hopefully playing some nice stuff.
It's not disloyal or wrong to criticise decisions made in the past.
COYB,
SB | |
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