| Jury out in Ben Stokes case 11:17 - Aug 14 with 3634 views | floridaboy |
Have a feeling he may get put away. From the pictures shown on TV it definitely looks like he lost the plot!
Silly boy because he if he goes down that may well put an end to his career. |  | | |  |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:23 - Aug 14 with 2907 views | Steve_M |
Did you follow the entire trial closely or just look at some pictures? |  |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:25 - Aug 14 with 2891 views | bracknell_blue |
If he goes down, Chris Woakes has made a good case of stepping into his place in the team. |  |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:25 - Aug 14 with 2891 views | Keno |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:23 - Aug 14 by Steve_M |
Did you follow the entire trial closely or just look at some pictures? |
especially the picture that went
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:26 - Aug 14 with 2881 views | Herbivore |
I think it's likely he'll be found guilty. Affray isn't the same as assault, I think it's hard to make a case that he hasn't caused affray. Not sure he'll do time though, suspended sentence or community service I imagine. |  |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:29 - Aug 14 with 2852 views | SaleAway |
I'm not sure he will.... affray is a strange one.... I still don't fully understand it - because its not the violence to the victim that is the issue here - its if a "person of reasonable firmness, present at the scene would have felt threatened".
eg:
In her judgment Rafferty J reviewed earlier cases, in particular the case of Sanchez (1996) Crim LR 527 where Defendant had tried to attack her former boyfriend with a knife outside a block of flats. Victim deflected the blow and ran. The Court of Appeal quashed her conviction for affray as the violence was merely between the two individuals, and as it was outdoors in an open space, there was ample opportunity for any bystander to distance himself from the violence. Thus, there was no real possibility that any bystander would fear for his personal safety.
I'm not a legal beagle though, so may have misunderstood this... | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:29 - Aug 14 with 2841 views | wkj |
"He looks like a wrong'un to me"
Mum's logic |  |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:32 - Aug 14 with 2817 views | Gogs |
He may indeed go down. But Affray is a bit of an odd offence though:
‘fighting of one or more persons in a public place to the terror of ordinary people’
He’s not charged with assault/ abh/ gbh or similar
I suspect he’s got a very good legal team behind him who can do enough to sow the seeds of ‘reasonable doubt’ in the minds of jurors. What sort of ban he’ll get from the ECB if he’s found guilty, I don’t know. I think they would be reluctant to hand down a life ban, whether he deserves one or not. |  | | |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:32 - Aug 14 with 2807 views | floridaboy |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:23 - Aug 14 by Steve_M |
Did you follow the entire trial closely or just look at some pictures? |
No. Just made it up!
Of course I did. CCTV was fairly damning IMHO. | | | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:39 - Aug 14 with 2751 views | connorscontract |
The media reporting has been outrageously one-sided. The BBC has headlined quotes from the barrister representing the other defendant (the one who went towards the two men in front of Stokes and Hales with a bottle) with "Court hears" and then later in the article quoted Stokes' barrister.
Linguistically correct: the Court did "hear" that, but utterly sensationalist and partial.
Fortunately the Jury don't see or read that stuff.
I have a view that if someone goes for you or people with you with a bottle, unprovoked, then you are entitled to defend yourself, and them, and not stop until the threat is neutralised. If his friend then comes into it with a piece of metal, there is further reason to continue.
But I haven't heard all the evidence. | | | |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:45 - Aug 14 with 2704 views | SaleAway |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:39 - Aug 14 by connorscontract |
The media reporting has been outrageously one-sided. The BBC has headlined quotes from the barrister representing the other defendant (the one who went towards the two men in front of Stokes and Hales with a bottle) with "Court hears" and then later in the article quoted Stokes' barrister.
Linguistically correct: the Court did "hear" that, but utterly sensationalist and partial.
Fortunately the Jury don't see or read that stuff.
I have a view that if someone goes for you or people with you with a bottle, unprovoked, then you are entitled to defend yourself, and them, and not stop until the threat is neutralised. If his friend then comes into it with a piece of metal, there is further reason to continue.
But I haven't heard all the evidence. |
the crux of this whole case, from what I can see - is where the boundary between defending yourself, and "going crazy" is. The prosecution alleges that the red-mist descended, that Stokes was out of control, and as such, could reasonably be thought to be a threat to anyone present. Defence is that he was in control, only defending himself and Alex Hale, and as such is innocent. I haven't heard the detailed evidence, but I think you're hard pressed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he had lost control outside of the people that threatened him. | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:47 - Aug 14 with 2688 views | King_of_Portman_Rd |
Won't be playing for England again.. Or at least not for a few years anyway
Wouldn't surprise me if he focuses on white ball cricket after all this (given he is unlikely to play international test cricket again) so may make it back into England's One day or T20 sides in a few years |  | | |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:49 - Aug 14 with 2669 views | Herbivore |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:45 - Aug 14 by SaleAway |
the crux of this whole case, from what I can see - is where the boundary between defending yourself, and "going crazy" is. The prosecution alleges that the red-mist descended, that Stokes was out of control, and as such, could reasonably be thought to be a threat to anyone present. Defence is that he was in control, only defending himself and Alex Hale, and as such is innocent. I haven't heard the detailed evidence, but I think you're hard pressed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he had lost control outside of the people that threatened him. |
But if someone passing by saw Stokes knocking out a man who was backing away from him whilst his own friend was telling him to stop then it'd be reasonable for that passer by to fear for their safety. That world be affray. | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:56 - Aug 14 with 2607 views | connorscontract |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:49 - Aug 14 by Herbivore |
But if someone passing by saw Stokes knocking out a man who was backing away from him whilst his own friend was telling him to stop then it'd be reasonable for that passer by to fear for their safety. That world be affray. |
But if the person doing the knocking out had the defence of reasonable response to someone coming at the group with a bottle then that wouldn't matter.
Have any of the witnesses said that they feared Stokes would attack them?
Stevie G broke a DJ's jaw because, his defence argued, he feared the DJ might punch him if he, SG, didn't (hit him first) after the DJ refused to play the songs Stevie G requested. He got off. Stokes' has a stronger self-defence defence than that, although is charged with a different offence. [Post edited 14 Aug 2018 12:00]
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:57 - Aug 14 with 2602 views | SaleAway |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:49 - Aug 14 by Herbivore |
But if someone passing by saw Stokes knocking out a man who was backing away from him whilst his own friend was telling him to stop then it'd be reasonable for that passer by to fear for their safety. That world be affray. |
in that case you could argue that any fight is affray - I think the context of the fight has to be taken into account - if you walk into any fight without knowing what has happened, I think it would be fairly scary - because you could legitimately think that the person being hit is an innocent bystander...
If you came up to me and punched me in the back of the head, and then ran away - and I chased you and hit you, someone coming up and seeing me hit you would be in exactly that state, but I wouldn't be guilty of affray, because I'm entitled to defend myself.
As I mentioned though - although I've done a lot of reading, I still don't fully understand the offence, so its hard to know.... | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:01 - Aug 14 with 2559 views | Herbivore |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:57 - Aug 14 by SaleAway |
in that case you could argue that any fight is affray - I think the context of the fight has to be taken into account - if you walk into any fight without knowing what has happened, I think it would be fairly scary - because you could legitimately think that the person being hit is an innocent bystander...
If you came up to me and punched me in the back of the head, and then ran away - and I chased you and hit you, someone coming up and seeing me hit you would be in exactly that state, but I wouldn't be guilty of affray, because I'm entitled to defend myself.
As I mentioned though - although I've done a lot of reading, I still don't fully understand the offence, so its hard to know.... |
You'd have a hard time arguing self defence if you'd chased after me when I'd already ran away. | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:04 - Aug 14 with 2539 views | connorscontract |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:25 - Aug 14 by bracknell_blue |
If he goes down, Chris Woakes has made a good case of stepping into his place in the team. |
Woakes in. Ali to open. Rashid a fixture. Left Arm Curran swinging it. Broad and Anderson able to bowl shorter spells, maybe with 3 or 4 more years of Tests in England (please not in Australia...) Options! | | | |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:05 - Aug 14 with 2537 views | Herbivore |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:56 - Aug 14 by connorscontract |
But if the person doing the knocking out had the defence of reasonable response to someone coming at the group with a bottle then that wouldn't matter.
Have any of the witnesses said that they feared Stokes would attack them?
Stevie G broke a DJ's jaw because, his defence argued, he feared the DJ might punch him if he, SG, didn't (hit him first) after the DJ refused to play the songs Stevie G requested. He got off. Stokes' has a stronger self-defence defence than that, although is charged with a different offence. [Post edited 14 Aug 2018 12:00]
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Self defence is why he's not been charged with assault and is instead facing a (slightly) lesser charge of affray. Let's not forget either that the guys he knocked out were also on trial for the same offence, presumably for their behaviour in the build up to being knocked out. Having seen the footage a few times I think him continuing to go after them and knocking one of them out when they are backing away, with Hales shouting to him to stop, is problematic. We'll see, I'd not be hugely surprised either way but I think the affray charge is a tougher one for him to argue against. | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:08 - Aug 14 with 2509 views | Guthrum |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:47 - Aug 14 by King_of_Portman_Rd |
Won't be playing for England again.. Or at least not for a few years anyway
Wouldn't surprise me if he focuses on white ball cricket after all this (given he is unlikely to play international test cricket again) so may make it back into England's One day or T20 sides in a few years |
I disagree. If cleared, he is likely to be back in contention quite quickly. Otherwise he wouldn't have played in the 1st Test. |  |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:08 - Aug 14 with 2506 views | SaleAway |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:01 - Aug 14 by Herbivore |
You'd have a hard time arguing self defence if you'd chased after me when I'd already ran away. |
step in, punch me, back away.... threat is still present - the point is still, if no-one saw the first punch, then it looks like I'm the aggressor. Anyway - its all conjecture, we'll find out what the jury think in good time.
I believe the judge asked for a unanimous decision, so it might take a while.. be interested to see if he changes to accept a majority decision.... | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:11 - Aug 14 with 2485 views | Guthrum |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 11:25 - Aug 14 by bracknell_blue |
If he goes down, Chris Woakes has made a good case of stepping into his place in the team. |
As long as players like Woakes and Curran keep up their recent form, he would be less missed in the Test side than might have been thought a year ago. | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:28 - Aug 14 with 2362 views | Ryorry |
Surprised Phil n Gav haven't asked us to refrain from commenting on the trial till verdict in - or have I missed that request? |  |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:32 - Aug 14 with 2320 views | Keno |
| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:28 - Aug 14 by Ryorry |
Surprised Phil n Gav haven't asked us to refrain from commenting on the trial till verdict in - or have I missed that request? |
thats was days ago!!
Do keep up Ryorry | |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:42 - Aug 14 with 2263 views | Scuzzer |
Nah....most he can get done for will be a year suspended. Probably will be back for the fourth test. |  |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:45 - Aug 14 with 2248 views | GlebeTractor |
Rightly so, a footballer would be.
Don't get me wrong, I am a huge cricket fan, a huge fan of him as a cricketer, but when in the public eye (even if you are not) you should not be breaking the law. Let alone putting others lives at risk. |  |
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| Jury out in Ben Stokes case on 12:47 - Aug 14 with 2222 views | stewartm |
Not Guilty |  |
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