| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 10:57 - Nov 27 with 1489 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Wear a mask and gloves. |  | |  |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:05 - Nov 27 with 1484 views | StokieBlue |
That may work for those that are unsure but I wouldn't call them anti-vaxxers in the proper way.
For the hardcore anti-vaxxers the evidence is irrelevant as is being empathetic and engaging. The last ten years have shown conclusively shown this.
SB [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 11:13]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:09 - Nov 27 with 1470 views | bluelagos |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:05 - Nov 27 by StokieBlue |
That may work for those that are unsure but I wouldn't call them anti-vaxxers in the proper way.
For the hardcore anti-vaxxers the evidence is irrelevant as is being empathetic and engaging. The last ten years have shown conclusively shown this.
SB [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 11:13]
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Fair comment.
But I do think for those unsure, asking questions etc. we can (myself inc.) be a bit quick to jump on them.
There was a thread recently querying the statistical reliability of the Oxford vaccine the other day - and it looks as if the questions raised were spot on/accurate. Some responses were dismissive which in hindsight seems unfair. |  |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:14 - Nov 27 with 1462 views | StokieBlue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:09 - Nov 27 by bluelagos |
Fair comment.
But I do think for those unsure, asking questions etc. we can (myself inc.) be a bit quick to jump on them.
There was a thread recently querying the statistical reliability of the Oxford vaccine the other day - and it looks as if the questions raised were spot on/accurate. Some responses were dismissive which in hindsight seems unfair. |
That is fair as well.
That thread was weird though because the longevity of the vaccine was questioned with regards to the dosage and they aren't the same things so it's weird to equate them.
No vaccine has stated longevity.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:42 - Nov 27 with 1442 views | urbanblue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:05 - Nov 27 by StokieBlue |
That may work for those that are unsure but I wouldn't call them anti-vaxxers in the proper way.
For the hardcore anti-vaxxers the evidence is irrelevant as is being empathetic and engaging. The last ten years have shown conclusively shown this.
SB [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 11:13]
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After your OP I'm glad you followed up with this post.
I work with the public and have clients that are respectable pensioners, families with children, businessmen and women, University graduates ... People young and old from all walks of life.
When it has come up in conversation I'd say that at least 50% of them at this stage are extremely nervous and uncertain about taking a new vaccine. Too call them 'Anti Vaxxers', in my opinion, is wrong and disrespectful.
It's going to be a problem for Governments to persuade people particularly around the doubts to the Vaccines safety. I also don't think it helps matters when there is talk of it being mandatory, or as good as, with restrictions on aspects of life if not vaccinated. |  | | |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:48 - Nov 27 with 1430 views | bluelagos |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:42 - Nov 27 by urbanblue |
After your OP I'm glad you followed up with this post.
I work with the public and have clients that are respectable pensioners, families with children, businessmen and women, University graduates ... People young and old from all walks of life.
When it has come up in conversation I'd say that at least 50% of them at this stage are extremely nervous and uncertain about taking a new vaccine. Too call them 'Anti Vaxxers', in my opinion, is wrong and disrespectful.
It's going to be a problem for Governments to persuade people particularly around the doubts to the Vaccines safety. I also don't think it helps matters when there is talk of it being mandatory, or as good as, with restrictions on aspects of life if not vaccinated. |
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting making them mandatory. That would be counter productive am sure. | |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:52 - Nov 27 with 1423 views | factual_blue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 10:57 - Nov 27 by Eireannach_gorm |
Wear a mask and gloves. |
And give them a leaflet about funeral plans? |  |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:52 - Nov 27 with 1423 views | urbanblue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:48 - Nov 27 by bluelagos |
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting making them mandatory. That would be counter productive am sure. |
Well, many think that although it won't specifically be mandatory it may be as good as, with extreme limitations on what you can do if you are not. Already, as discussed in a thread the other day, it seems air travel may not be possible without having the vaccination. | | | |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:57 - Nov 27 with 1417 views | FoD_Blue |
I totally understand the scepticism that people have toward the vaccine, I myself am extremely sceptical of the quoted results and also the rush to get this vaccine out quickly so that we can restart the world.
If I had the choice, I would likely decline the vaccine until it was tested more thoroughly, but currently it is the only answer to getting back to some sort of normal, so I’ll take it. The current normal is unbearable, and I want out. |  | | |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:57 - Nov 27 with 1414 views | StokieBlue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:52 - Nov 27 by urbanblue |
Well, many think that although it won't specifically be mandatory it may be as good as, with extreme limitations on what you can do if you are not. Already, as discussed in a thread the other day, it seems air travel may not be possible without having the vaccination. |
I didn't make the OP.
As for this post, I understands the concerns some may have (although they should read the science to form their opinions - what are their specific concerns?) but I don't have a problem at all with air travel being based on having the vaccine.
In the end, having C19 is likely to be worse for the majority of the people you listed than having the vaccine based on what we know at the moment. If you don't have the vaccine you are a potential vector and unfortunately potential vectors need to be closed - that is what we have been doing since March.
Don't you live in Australia? This rule already exists there if travelling from somewhere which has yellow fever so it's not really much of an extension of the existing rule.
SB [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 12:00]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:58 - Nov 27 with 1410 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:52 - Nov 27 by urbanblue |
Well, many think that although it won't specifically be mandatory it may be as good as, with extreme limitations on what you can do if you are not. Already, as discussed in a thread the other day, it seems air travel may not be possible without having the vaccination. |
Do you not regard this as a reasonable stance? You are not forced to get vaccinated but you will be constrained from potentially infecting others. | | | |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:03 - Nov 27 with 1399 views | DanTheMan |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:52 - Nov 27 by urbanblue |
Well, many think that although it won't specifically be mandatory it may be as good as, with extreme limitations on what you can do if you are not. Already, as discussed in a thread the other day, it seems air travel may not be possible without having the vaccination. |
> Extreme limitations
> Air Travel
That's not extreme, that's honestly the least I'd expect. |  |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:20 - Nov 27 with 1378 views | urbanblue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:57 - Nov 27 by StokieBlue |
I didn't make the OP.
As for this post, I understands the concerns some may have (although they should read the science to form their opinions - what are their specific concerns?) but I don't have a problem at all with air travel being based on having the vaccine.
In the end, having C19 is likely to be worse for the majority of the people you listed than having the vaccine based on what we know at the moment. If you don't have the vaccine you are a potential vector and unfortunately potential vectors need to be closed - that is what we have been doing since March.
Don't you live in Australia? This rule already exists there if travelling from somewhere which has yellow fever so it's not really much of an extension of the existing rule.
SB [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 12:00]
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Sorry Stokie, not sure what happened there as my first post was meant to have been in response to BL's second post.
First of all you will still be allowed to enter Australia if you do not hold a Yellow Fever vaccination certificate.
https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/health-pubhlth-s
Of course, the answer is that these people would have no problem having the Yellow Fever vaccination as it's seen as tried and trusted. The problem is that any Covid19 vaccine is seen as not. The average Joe does not look at scientific papers and many see the 'science' as extremely contradictory in many instances.
Another factor for some is that this years Flu jab appears to have made a number of people who had it quite ill. Because of Covid there are a number of my clients who for various reasons (Job, to be allowed to see elderly relatives) had to have the Flu Vaccine when previous years they hadn't.
It is also questioned why the Pharmaceutical Companies have immunity against any legal action if there are side effects.
These people are not against vaccines ... They just fear what they see as an unproven vaccine especially any long term side affects.
As I final note I did point out the irony of what one friend was saying when he talked about his concerns about a vaccine harming him as he chugged away on his cigarette! | | | |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:23 - Nov 27 with 1371 views | wkj |
My issue isn't with people who are genuinely concerned about vaccines, but the misinformation that gets peddled around vaccinations that causes people to be concerned. The anti vaccination fear came from some known celebrities buying into some very serious unfounded claims about them. |  |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:35 - Nov 27 with 1350 views | StokieBlue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:20 - Nov 27 by urbanblue |
Sorry Stokie, not sure what happened there as my first post was meant to have been in response to BL's second post.
First of all you will still be allowed to enter Australia if you do not hold a Yellow Fever vaccination certificate.
https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/health-pubhlth-s
Of course, the answer is that these people would have no problem having the Yellow Fever vaccination as it's seen as tried and trusted. The problem is that any Covid19 vaccine is seen as not. The average Joe does not look at scientific papers and many see the 'science' as extremely contradictory in many instances.
Another factor for some is that this years Flu jab appears to have made a number of people who had it quite ill. Because of Covid there are a number of my clients who for various reasons (Job, to be allowed to see elderly relatives) had to have the Flu Vaccine when previous years they hadn't.
It is also questioned why the Pharmaceutical Companies have immunity against any legal action if there are side effects.
These people are not against vaccines ... They just fear what they see as an unproven vaccine especially any long term side affects.
As I final note I did point out the irony of what one friend was saying when he talked about his concerns about a vaccine harming him as he chugged away on his cigarette! |
Ah! No worries :).
Thanks for the link, I am sure it used to be policy that they could refuse entry but seemingly not anymore - many other countries still do though. Your point about it being a known vaccine is fair though.
This is the problem though, the flu jab isn't the C19 jab so any effects from that can't be projected onto the C19 jab. Fully understand not everyone will read the science but forming opinions based on nothing never ends well. Forming opinions on a false equivalence like that is also not ideal.
If they are worried about long-term side-affects how long are they willing to wait for a vaccine? Or are they just taking the position that enough other people are going to have it so why should they take the risk? Just let others take any risk that they perceive for them. In this case don't you feel it's perfectly acceptable that they should face certain restrictions?
That position sits just as uneasily with me as mandatory vaccinations. Nobody should be forced to have the vaccine, however, I think it's reasonable to expect some restrictions if you don't want it because you are a vector of transmission whilst others aren't.
SB [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 12:36]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:36 - Nov 27 with 1348 views | urbanblue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:58 - Nov 27 by Eireannach_gorm |
Do you not regard this as a reasonable stance? You are not forced to get vaccinated but you will be constrained from potentially infecting others. |
Whoa ... Easy man.
I never said that did I? Please read the post I was replying to and take my response in context! | | | |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:50 - Nov 27 with 1334 views | bluelagos |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:35 - Nov 27 by StokieBlue |
Ah! No worries :).
Thanks for the link, I am sure it used to be policy that they could refuse entry but seemingly not anymore - many other countries still do though. Your point about it being a known vaccine is fair though.
This is the problem though, the flu jab isn't the C19 jab so any effects from that can't be projected onto the C19 jab. Fully understand not everyone will read the science but forming opinions based on nothing never ends well. Forming opinions on a false equivalence like that is also not ideal.
If they are worried about long-term side-affects how long are they willing to wait for a vaccine? Or are they just taking the position that enough other people are going to have it so why should they take the risk? Just let others take any risk that they perceive for them. In this case don't you feel it's perfectly acceptable that they should face certain restrictions?
That position sits just as uneasily with me as mandatory vaccinations. Nobody should be forced to have the vaccine, however, I think it's reasonable to expect some restrictions if you don't want it because you are a vector of transmission whilst others aren't.
SB [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 12:36]
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Clarity on the Aus Yellow Fever policy.
The rule always was that you do need a certificate, if you have visited a country where it is prevalent in the past 7 days. I got caught out a few years back travelling from Nigeria to Aus and forgot my certificate.
Posted before, they put me in quarantine which meant I spoke to Doc and she gave me a form (with a list of symptoms) that meant I had to present to a hospital if I got any of those symptoms in the next 7 days.
She was sound but was clear they could have refused me entry. That I worked for a multinational who I said wouldn't have let me travel without them and I explained the procedures I'd had done I think convinced her I had had the jabs.
No reason to think it's changed as far as I know, but not been for a couple of years. | |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:51 - Nov 27 with 1329 views | urbanblue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:35 - Nov 27 by StokieBlue |
Ah! No worries :).
Thanks for the link, I am sure it used to be policy that they could refuse entry but seemingly not anymore - many other countries still do though. Your point about it being a known vaccine is fair though.
This is the problem though, the flu jab isn't the C19 jab so any effects from that can't be projected onto the C19 jab. Fully understand not everyone will read the science but forming opinions based on nothing never ends well. Forming opinions on a false equivalence like that is also not ideal.
If they are worried about long-term side-affects how long are they willing to wait for a vaccine? Or are they just taking the position that enough other people are going to have it so why should they take the risk? Just let others take any risk that they perceive for them. In this case don't you feel it's perfectly acceptable that they should face certain restrictions?
That position sits just as uneasily with me as mandatory vaccinations. Nobody should be forced to have the vaccine, however, I think it's reasonable to expect some restrictions if you don't want it because you are a vector of transmission whilst others aren't.
SB [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 12:36]
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I think a lot of this has to be taken in context. The thing is, compared to other parts of the world Australia has not been affected anywhere near as badly. Where I live has not had a case for three months! Of course, that means there is not the same fear of the virus.
When discussing the Pandemic, I always have to maintain the self awareness that I am looking at it from the perspective that I am lucky enough to be living in an area that is, at present, Covid free. As you will have gathered from previous posts I am not convinced by Lockdowns. However, when discussing this I realise that it's easy for me to have that opinion from where I stand. If I was in the middle of it all my views may well be very different.
This is something that I believe these people may not have considered. I should add, by the way, there are many others who'd have the vaccine straight away. I just believe that it's very important that Governments get their messaging right. | | | |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:52 - Nov 27 with 1329 views | bluelagos |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:42 - Nov 27 by urbanblue |
After your OP I'm glad you followed up with this post.
I work with the public and have clients that are respectable pensioners, families with children, businessmen and women, University graduates ... People young and old from all walks of life.
When it has come up in conversation I'd say that at least 50% of them at this stage are extremely nervous and uncertain about taking a new vaccine. Too call them 'Anti Vaxxers', in my opinion, is wrong and disrespectful.
It's going to be a problem for Governments to persuade people particularly around the doubts to the Vaccines safety. I also don't think it helps matters when there is talk of it being mandatory, or as good as, with restrictions on aspects of life if not vaccinated. |
Thought it might have been for me :-)
Yeah, my motive here was not to bash the refusniks/antivaxxers - rather to highlight we maybe need to engage rather than dismiss them. Although as others point out, there is a huge difference indeed between those unsure and the true antivaxxers. [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 13:00]
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:59 - Nov 27 with 1319 views | bluelagos |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 12:50 - Nov 27 by bluelagos |
Clarity on the Aus Yellow Fever policy.
The rule always was that you do need a certificate, if you have visited a country where it is prevalent in the past 7 days. I got caught out a few years back travelling from Nigeria to Aus and forgot my certificate.
Posted before, they put me in quarantine which meant I spoke to Doc and she gave me a form (with a list of symptoms) that meant I had to present to a hospital if I got any of those symptoms in the next 7 days.
She was sound but was clear they could have refused me entry. That I worked for a multinational who I said wouldn't have let me travel without them and I explained the procedures I'd had done I think convinced her I had had the jabs.
No reason to think it's changed as far as I know, but not been for a couple of years. |
The other thing she was explained was that as I was staying in NS Wales/Victoria she was relaxed but that I should not visit Queensland. She said a bug (in the tropics) could bite me and then introduce the disease but that in non tropical areas there weren't the same bugs.
*Interpreted as best from my memory, was like 10 years plus ago. | |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 20:02 - Nov 27 with 1218 views | Keaneish |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 11:57 - Nov 27 by FoD_Blue |
I totally understand the scepticism that people have toward the vaccine, I myself am extremely sceptical of the quoted results and also the rush to get this vaccine out quickly so that we can restart the world.
If I had the choice, I would likely decline the vaccine until it was tested more thoroughly, but currently it is the only answer to getting back to some sort of normal, so I’ll take it. The current normal is unbearable, and I want out. |
Indeed. Have you noticed how mainstream media’s rhetoric has switched from ‘being infected’ to those ‘you will infect’ if you have it? A twist in language and change in direction which seems very timely now a vaccine is on the horizon. I find it staggering how the mass respond without question to messages pumped into them. The Hypodermic Needle theory about linear communication has been around since the 20s and it’s more prevalent now than ever - clap for carers being a perfect example of this theory in effect.
I’m not an anti-vaxxer, vaccines have a purpose but we should be searching for treatments not vaccines. The bigger issue is the divisive media messages circulating further fragmenting community with the notion that someone who gets the vaccine is somehow a more diligent or upstanding citizen than someone who doesn’t. It’s emotional blackmail further fragmenting and dividing whilst lining the pockets of large pharma companies. |  |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 20:08 - Nov 27 with 1215 views | footers |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 20:02 - Nov 27 by Keaneish |
Indeed. Have you noticed how mainstream media’s rhetoric has switched from ‘being infected’ to those ‘you will infect’ if you have it? A twist in language and change in direction which seems very timely now a vaccine is on the horizon. I find it staggering how the mass respond without question to messages pumped into them. The Hypodermic Needle theory about linear communication has been around since the 20s and it’s more prevalent now than ever - clap for carers being a perfect example of this theory in effect.
I’m not an anti-vaxxer, vaccines have a purpose but we should be searching for treatments not vaccines. The bigger issue is the divisive media messages circulating further fragmenting community with the notion that someone who gets the vaccine is somehow a more diligent or upstanding citizen than someone who doesn’t. It’s emotional blackmail further fragmenting and dividing whilst lining the pockets of large pharma companies. |
The vaccine is a treatment, you absolute clown.
What great purpose have all the governments of the world been pursuing to their own ends, despite the huge economic losses they've been suffering?
You're dangerous idiot. And worse still, an idiot who thinks they're clever.
Get off Facebook and live in the real world.
Lockdown protects the vulnerable and vaccines save lives. Get one. [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 20:22]
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 20:25 - Nov 27 with 1195 views | Keaneish |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 20:08 - Nov 27 by footers |
The vaccine is a treatment, you absolute clown.
What great purpose have all the governments of the world been pursuing to their own ends, despite the huge economic losses they've been suffering?
You're dangerous idiot. And worse still, an idiot who thinks they're clever.
Get off Facebook and live in the real world.
Lockdown protects the vulnerable and vaccines save lives. Get one. [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 20:22]
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Touched a nerve their footers. Presumably you went out into the street and clapped into the thin air because the television told you to. Think about that for a moment before you label people idiots...
Lockdowns do protect the vulnerable, that’s not been topic I raised. Seems you’ve fallen fowl of polarising this conversation and lumping me in with anti-vaxxers even though I said I wasn’t one, which kind of puts your argument in a bad light as you’ve made a sweeping generalisation and assumption and given me a label - kind of the original point I was raising about media messaging.
A treatment is for an ailment if you have an illness. A vaccine is to prevent an illness being contracted. There’s a marked difference. Again, careful with the idiot labelling there. | |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 20:33 - Nov 27 with 1185 views | footers |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 20:25 - Nov 27 by Keaneish |
Touched a nerve their footers. Presumably you went out into the street and clapped into the thin air because the television told you to. Think about that for a moment before you label people idiots...
Lockdowns do protect the vulnerable, that’s not been topic I raised. Seems you’ve fallen fowl of polarising this conversation and lumping me in with anti-vaxxers even though I said I wasn’t one, which kind of puts your argument in a bad light as you’ve made a sweeping generalisation and assumption and given me a label - kind of the original point I was raising about media messaging.
A treatment is for an ailment if you have an illness. A vaccine is to prevent an illness being contracted. There’s a marked difference. Again, careful with the idiot labelling there. |
So what is your big-brained point if it isn't about vaccines or lockdown? | |
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| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 20:36 - Nov 27 with 1181 views | StokieBlue |
| Time to hug an anti-vaxxer? on 20:25 - Nov 27 by Keaneish |
Touched a nerve their footers. Presumably you went out into the street and clapped into the thin air because the television told you to. Think about that for a moment before you label people idiots...
Lockdowns do protect the vulnerable, that’s not been topic I raised. Seems you’ve fallen fowl of polarising this conversation and lumping me in with anti-vaxxers even though I said I wasn’t one, which kind of puts your argument in a bad light as you’ve made a sweeping generalisation and assumption and given me a label - kind of the original point I was raising about media messaging.
A treatment is for an ailment if you have an illness. A vaccine is to prevent an illness being contracted. There’s a marked difference. Again, careful with the idiot labelling there. |
That definition of treatment is incomplete when talking about medicine.
Treatment can also be preventative which is the case with vaccines. In fact one could easily argue that preventative treatments are better than the way you think about them because preventing something happening in the first place is far better than dealing with the consequences after the event.
Why should we be searching for after-infection treatments rather than vaccines? I am interested to know why you think that is the case.
To me it seems nonsensical because it doesn't reduce the instance of infection and thus the hospitals are still packed with people and we still have to lockdown to prevent lots of people getting it.
Realistically we should be looking at both types of treatment and luckily that is happening.
SB [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 20:42]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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