| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. 08:11 - Aug 28 with 2572 views | NthQldITFC |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-62704004
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-61484697
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/02/pakistan-india-heatwaves-water-ele
Apologies for the deliberately somewhat clickbaity title.
Three or four months after sustained record-breaking heatwaves and consequent wildfires, Pakistan is now in the grip of catastrophic wide-scale flooding, brought about by both extreme rainfall and accelerating glacier melt.
Pakistan is just one of many current or very recent examples of extremely concerning severe weather events all around the world which are indicating that Climate Change due to Anthropogenic Global Warming is perhaps an even more serious / more imminent threat than we feared.
We need to adapt quickly. Obviously governments need to adapt, but we as individuals can adapt more quickly and without waiting to be told what to do.
It concerns me greatly that there is not more frequent discussion of the issue on here and in other decent forums, or that the discussion is only reactive and fleeting. We need to make minimising our carbon footprint today our primary concern if we are to have any hope of leaving our children a world which isn't descending into hell.
So make a decision today to choose to eat less or no meat and dairy, choose not to buy a big fuel-hungry vehicle, choose not to fly short-haul ever again, choose not to buy endless disposable gimmicks and knick-knacks.
OR, choose to carry on as you are, and choose to give your children no future. |  |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 12:25 - Aug 28 with 2387 views | CoachRob |
Horrific.
I know many people, including myself, who do many of the things you suggest: nothing is changing. Why? Is it as simple as lambasting people for their inaction, I am certainly aware of the maximum power principle, is there an inverse to this theory?
I think there has been some engagement, but what is the best way to engage? Do you terrify the life out of people with the discontinuities of the climate system; blame people, organisations, governments; direct action; more COP's? Do we need a different approach? |  | | |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 13:01 - Aug 28 with 2344 views | Darth_Koont |
Well said.
Reminded me of this which I’ll add to your and Stokie’s examples.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-62199184
Severe weather that’s changing countries and societies is a big problem for the world, but in an already turbulent and highly populated region the effects will ripple far beyond climate and the environment in abstract terms. On top of the climate threat to mankind and millions of species, we should expect more wars, more social unrest, more loopy responses from different fundamentalists at home and abroad, more drought and hunger, more migration and more suffering and death. |  |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 13:06 - Aug 28 with 2327 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
I don’t think removing subsidies from everything from insulation to EVs helps to be honest. It had to be a mixture of carrot and stick. Transport is the largest emitter of CO2 in the UK, yet I almost always drive any long distances as it’s at least half the price of going by train.
Recently changed by car but until the price of EVs comes down I wouldn’t be able to justify the price. There’s literally a handful of affordable models. The car I bought is faster than 95pc of Tesla’s, 2/3rd the price, and half the cost to insure. That’s said I rarely fly short distances, eat red meat, and I don’t have any kids so my overall footprint is pretty low. |  | | |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 14:30 - Aug 28 with 2260 views | NthQldITFC |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 12:25 - Aug 28 by CoachRob |
Horrific.
I know many people, including myself, who do many of the things you suggest: nothing is changing. Why? Is it as simple as lambasting people for their inaction, I am certainly aware of the maximum power principle, is there an inverse to this theory?
I think there has been some engagement, but what is the best way to engage? Do you terrify the life out of people with the discontinuities of the climate system; blame people, organisations, governments; direct action; more COP's? Do we need a different approach? |
Unfortunately I think the least bad option now is basically to get everybody terrified of the reality we face, and hope that enough people around the world make enough changes to make some sort of difference.
Obviously some will be too terrified to act, and many consciously or subconsciously know will be mentally damaged when they finally face the truth, but the outcomes are going to be hard on everybody anyway. Essentially fk all has been changed so far with the softly, softly encourage people approach, and we're running out of time fast.
I would say that most people I know are well aware of the issue, but incredibly don't seem to understand how bad and how much it is about RIGHT NOW. Most people have their heads well and truly in the sand and need a very hard kick up the arse to wake up, in my opinion. | |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 14:38 - Aug 28 with 2243 views | NthQldITFC |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 12:25 - Aug 28 by CoachRob |
Horrific.
I know many people, including myself, who do many of the things you suggest: nothing is changing. Why? Is it as simple as lambasting people for their inaction, I am certainly aware of the maximum power principle, is there an inverse to this theory?
I think there has been some engagement, but what is the best way to engage? Do you terrify the life out of people with the discontinuities of the climate system; blame people, organisations, governments; direct action; more COP's? Do we need a different approach? |
One word I'd like to keep out of the discussion is 'blame'. Whilst of course certain people/organisations are and have been more responsible than others for the situation, and for the resistance to change, recriminations and ego-driven arguments are counter-productive.
I'd like to see every human be able to say "OK, we are where we are, what can I do right now to help?" and "Nice one, well done you." to the former oil company PR executive who has just forsworn flying and become a vegan. | |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 15:31 - Aug 28 with 2176 views | BudapestByBlimp |
I completely agree with you on this and other threads you have posted. Unfortunately, I think our desire to please the self will be the end of us. We've known a lot about the information you've posted for decades now and yet, this Summer alone, I've seen friends jetting off to resorts worldwide, my boss flying to Turkey to get her teeth done  and Leeds United burning jet fuel to get to the other side of the world for a kickabout.
We haven't learnt that personal freedom goes hand-in-hand with societal responsibility. Western society and capitalism tells us that we've worked hard for our money and in a free country we should be able to spend it as we please. Capitalism even encourages us at every step to spend as much as possible (often beyond what we can afford).
Maybe the tough times ahead will make people reassess their needs and wants but my biggest hope is that it will force governments worldwide to prioritise funding for renewable energies and encourage a sea change (pardon the pun) in international thinking and lifestyles. However, I hold out little hope for this to happen while we fiddle in the margins. I fear any action will be too little, too late.
*Apologies if this doesn't make sense, I currently have a migraine and am struggling to see/think clearly* |  | | |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 15:52 - Aug 28 with 2142 views | NthQldITFC |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 15:31 - Aug 28 by BudapestByBlimp |
I completely agree with you on this and other threads you have posted. Unfortunately, I think our desire to please the self will be the end of us. We've known a lot about the information you've posted for decades now and yet, this Summer alone, I've seen friends jetting off to resorts worldwide, my boss flying to Turkey to get her teeth done and Leeds United burning jet fuel to get to the other side of the world for a kickabout.
We haven't learnt that personal freedom goes hand-in-hand with societal responsibility. Western society and capitalism tells us that we've worked hard for our money and in a free country we should be able to spend it as we please. Capitalism even encourages us at every step to spend as much as possible (often beyond what we can afford).
Maybe the tough times ahead will make people reassess their needs and wants but my biggest hope is that it will force governments worldwide to prioritise funding for renewable energies and encourage a sea change (pardon the pun) in international thinking and lifestyles. However, I hold out little hope for this to happen while we fiddle in the margins. I fear any action will be too little, too late.
*Apologies if this doesn't make sense, I currently have a migraine and am struggling to see/think clearly* |
"We haven't learnt that personal freedom goes hand-in-hand with societal responsibility. Western society and capitalism tells us that we've worked hard for our money and in a free country we should be able to spend it as we please. Capitalism even encourages us at every step to spend as much as possible (often beyond what we can afford)."
Well you make excellent sense to me, migraine or not. There seems to be in Westernised humans a deep and widespread (and to me completely irrational) fundamental belief in things like 'personal freedom' (limited only by legalities and ability to pay), 'growth' and 'progress' as mantras which we have a hard and fast right to without any consideration of the consequences.
It will almost certainly kill us.
But humanity just doesn't seem to want to wake up. | |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 16:24 - Aug 28 with 2100 views | giant_stow |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 15:52 - Aug 28 by NthQldITFC |
"We haven't learnt that personal freedom goes hand-in-hand with societal responsibility. Western society and capitalism tells us that we've worked hard for our money and in a free country we should be able to spend it as we please. Capitalism even encourages us at every step to spend as much as possible (often beyond what we can afford)."
Well you make excellent sense to me, migraine or not. There seems to be in Westernised humans a deep and widespread (and to me completely irrational) fundamental belief in things like 'personal freedom' (limited only by legalities and ability to pay), 'growth' and 'progress' as mantras which we have a hard and fast right to without any consideration of the consequences.
It will almost certainly kill us.
But humanity just doesn't seem to want to wake up. |
What pisses me off right now is we're in the middle of an energy crisis brought about by dependency on one kind of hydrocarbon, while many peoples'solution seems to be to drill more! Seems so clear that this is the big push the world needs to go more renewable, but some on the right are determined to ignore it. I even read something from imbecile David frost bemoaning 'medieval wind technology' while pushing fracking. I mean wtf?!!! [Post edited 28 Aug 2022 16:25]
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 17:04 - Aug 28 with 2056 views | WD19 |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 14:38 - Aug 28 by NthQldITFC |
One word I'd like to keep out of the discussion is 'blame'. Whilst of course certain people/organisations are and have been more responsible than others for the situation, and for the resistance to change, recriminations and ego-driven arguments are counter-productive.
I'd like to see every human be able to say "OK, we are where we are, what can I do right now to help?" and "Nice one, well done you." to the former oil company PR executive who has just forsworn flying and become a vegan. |
Fair point, but job number one is to reduce the worlds population by several billion people. Who is going to volunteer to go first!? |  | | |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 17:32 - Aug 28 with 2038 views | Radlett_blue |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 16:24 - Aug 28 by giant_stow |
What pisses me off right now is we're in the middle of an energy crisis brought about by dependency on one kind of hydrocarbon, while many peoples'solution seems to be to drill more! Seems so clear that this is the big push the world needs to go more renewable, but some on the right are determined to ignore it. I even read something from imbecile David frost bemoaning 'medieval wind technology' while pushing fracking. I mean wtf?!!! [Post edited 28 Aug 2022 16:25]
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So called "renewable" energy is actually expensive & inefficient. If we hadn't discouraged investment in the North Sea & encouraged fracking, we wouldn't be so dependent on imported gas. We are now facing a severe energy crisis. Investing more in nuclear would have been another sensible strategy. |  |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 17:59 - Aug 28 with 2002 views | eireblue |
Yep, choosing a plant based diet is the easiest thing people can do. |  | | |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 21:41 - Aug 28 with 1880 views | Swansea_Blue |
Minor point on the glacier melt comment. Pakistan (the Karakoram) is a bit of an anomaly in the glacier world. It’s one of the few regions where glaciers have been gaining mass in the 21st century. Largely it’s down to increased precipitation, but they’ve also a lot of surging glaciers, which means they accelerate at speeds orders of magnitude greater than ‘normal’ glaciers, and that makes it harder to work out what’s going on. (I stopped working on them about 12 years ago so could be out of date, but the literature from 3-4 yrs ago still suggests they’re gaining mass and not increasingly melting. The Himalayan glaciers on the other hand are fecked - they’re melting like the clappers.
Irrespective, 2 years of temps hitting 50°C+ won’t have helped anything.
Anyway, as you were. That’s just me being pedantic. It’s been a horrible drought and then monsoon over there this year.
PS. Our aid budget to Pakistan has also shrunk from about £375m in 20-19 to £44m for this next year. That won’t help either. [Post edited 28 Aug 2022 21:45]
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 23:59 - Aug 28 with 1813 views | Ryorry |
I've often seen it discussed on here, most individuals I know are pretty responsible & reducing their carbon footprint in various ways as best they can - but have to be practical too - in rural location we need cars to get about due to zero public transport, but then we plant & care for trees to try to redress the balance, via large community planting schemes as well as indivduals planting their own in their gardens & fields.
It's all very well us doing things as individuals, but we need *Governments* to do the major stuff - ie *not* investing in or subsidising bloody fossil fuels (such investment having been majorly driven by Tory MPs who had/have shares in them^, incl fracking, which is totally unviable in UK anyway btw Radlett); *not* removing subsidies on renewables etc.
While governments continue to set such bad examples, it's tempting for individuals to shrug their shoulders & think "what's the point of us minnows doing anything when governments are doing such terrible damage on an industrial scale, & are also allowing private corporations to get away with it?" And, anticipating ppl saying "it's up to individuals to vote the Govts. out", that's unrealistic while we retain our antiquated FPTP system.
Further, we don't just need Govts. to think ahead, we need all Govts. round the world to forget their territorial thinking, & act in unity on this & other global crises, such as the pandemic & vaccination programmes. To paraphrase Commander Hadfield - "From space, there are no borders on earth"
^Fear not Phil, there's hard evidence of this [Post edited 29 Aug 2022 5:25]
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 08:10 - Aug 29 with 1673 views | Radlett_blue |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 23:59 - Aug 28 by Ryorry |
I've often seen it discussed on here, most individuals I know are pretty responsible & reducing their carbon footprint in various ways as best they can - but have to be practical too - in rural location we need cars to get about due to zero public transport, but then we plant & care for trees to try to redress the balance, via large community planting schemes as well as indivduals planting their own in their gardens & fields.
It's all very well us doing things as individuals, but we need *Governments* to do the major stuff - ie *not* investing in or subsidising bloody fossil fuels (such investment having been majorly driven by Tory MPs who had/have shares in them^, incl fracking, which is totally unviable in UK anyway btw Radlett); *not* removing subsidies on renewables etc.
While governments continue to set such bad examples, it's tempting for individuals to shrug their shoulders & think "what's the point of us minnows doing anything when governments are doing such terrible damage on an industrial scale, & are also allowing private corporations to get away with it?" And, anticipating ppl saying "it's up to individuals to vote the Govts. out", that's unrealistic while we retain our antiquated FPTP system.
Further, we don't just need Govts. to think ahead, we need all Govts. round the world to forget their territorial thinking, & act in unity on this & other global crises, such as the pandemic & vaccination programmes. To paraphrase Commander Hadfield - "From space, there are no borders on earth"
^Fear not Phil, there's hard evidence of this [Post edited 29 Aug 2022 5:25]
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Fracking may not be viable in the UK, although this doesn't really detract from my point that discouraging the use of fossil fuels is partly why we are facing a huge energy crisis. The zealots might say that if we were 100% renewable, we wouldn't be hostage to Russian gas, but that's unrealistic.
If carbon emissions are to be reduced, it requires co-ordinated action by a large number of national governments. As an Aussie said to me, what's the point of Australia shutting a coal fired power station when China has 3,000 and is still opening new ones? | |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 08:17 - Aug 29 with 1661 views | Darth_Koont |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 17:04 - Aug 28 by WD19 |
Fair point, but job number one is to reduce the worlds population by several billion people. Who is going to volunteer to go first!? |
Not sure that’s true at all.
While reducing population should reduce pressure on resources and help lower emissions, it’s a generation or two away. But anyway the key is that we still need to find a sustainable way of supporting billions of people. And the footprint of nations like the US and the UK isn’t down to population but choice of resources and patterns of consumption.
I’d say the first thing to do is for the world to move more to a plant-based diet and not have to support 10s of billions of cows, pigs, chicken and sheep that are a massively inefficient and unsustainable way of feeding people. And would still be even if we could instantly and magically get down to 5 billion people.
Beef for example needs to be an expensive, highly carbon-taxed luxury rather than a relatively cheap commodity. But the incentives and disincentives to produce and consume beef are all out of whack.
On a connected note, I heard the economist Steve Levitt point out that the Amazon deforestation to support cattle could be stopped immediately if we were to pay those farmers not to raise cattle. The land and climate is apparently so poor and unproductive for raising cattle that this is also why so much forest needs to be cleared. So all it would take is $10 billion a year, which is a drop in the ocean next to the vital benefit of maintaining the rain forest.
It’s also a good indication that an industry and consumption can be pretty small in economic terms but with a massively disproportionate and damaging effect on the planet. Unfortunately, we are rubbish at connecting the dots and taking responsibility for these negative effects. But that excuse becomes weaker and more pathetic for every year. | |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 10:44 - Aug 29 with 1564 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 23:59 - Aug 28 by Ryorry |
I've often seen it discussed on here, most individuals I know are pretty responsible & reducing their carbon footprint in various ways as best they can - but have to be practical too - in rural location we need cars to get about due to zero public transport, but then we plant & care for trees to try to redress the balance, via large community planting schemes as well as indivduals planting their own in their gardens & fields.
It's all very well us doing things as individuals, but we need *Governments* to do the major stuff - ie *not* investing in or subsidising bloody fossil fuels (such investment having been majorly driven by Tory MPs who had/have shares in them^, incl fracking, which is totally unviable in UK anyway btw Radlett); *not* removing subsidies on renewables etc.
While governments continue to set such bad examples, it's tempting for individuals to shrug their shoulders & think "what's the point of us minnows doing anything when governments are doing such terrible damage on an industrial scale, & are also allowing private corporations to get away with it?" And, anticipating ppl saying "it's up to individuals to vote the Govts. out", that's unrealistic while we retain our antiquated FPTP system.
Further, we don't just need Govts. to think ahead, we need all Govts. round the world to forget their territorial thinking, & act in unity on this & other global crises, such as the pandemic & vaccination programmes. To paraphrase Commander Hadfield - "From space, there are no borders on earth"
^Fear not Phil, there's hard evidence of this [Post edited 29 Aug 2022 5:25]
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Absolutely all of that. To add to your last paragraph we need our government to be champions for what’s need and work with other likeminded nations to convince/pressure/support other countries who’ve still got a long way to go. We have plenty of summits and jollies for the leaders, but nowhere near enough progress on the issue globally (doesn’t just apply to decarbonisation of course - we should be aiming for global progress on food security, habitat destruction, etc. | |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 11:29 - Aug 29 with 1539 views | giant_stow |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 17:32 - Aug 28 by Radlett_blue |
So called "renewable" energy is actually expensive & inefficient. If we hadn't discouraged investment in the North Sea & encouraged fracking, we wouldn't be so dependent on imported gas. We are now facing a severe energy crisis. Investing more in nuclear would have been another sensible strategy. |
I can live with nuclear as a stop gap, personally and like the sound of the home produced Rolls Royce jobbies. This is about energy security as well as climate change, so anything that helps there is fine by me.
Re your other point, I was under the impression that wind and solar power are currently far cheaper than gas-powered electricity generation. I haven't googled this, but sure I read this somewhere and that with further tech improvements, wind and solar will get far cheaper still. Whereas it gets ever more expensive to ring the last few drops of gas/oil out of the north sea.. | |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 11:35 - Aug 29 with 1531 views | Ryorry |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 08:10 - Aug 29 by Radlett_blue |
Fracking may not be viable in the UK, although this doesn't really detract from my point that discouraging the use of fossil fuels is partly why we are facing a huge energy crisis. The zealots might say that if we were 100% renewable, we wouldn't be hostage to Russian gas, but that's unrealistic.
If carbon emissions are to be reduced, it requires co-ordinated action by a large number of national governments. As an Aussie said to me, what's the point of Australia shutting a coal fired power station when China has 3,000 and is still opening new ones? |
That's why I wrote in my previous reply
"Further, we don't just need Govts. to think ahead, we need all Govts. round the world to forget their territorial thinking, & act in unity on this & other global crises, such as the pandemic & vaccination programmes. To paraphrase Commander Hadfield - "From space, there are no borders on earth"
a point developed well by Swanners in his ensuing post. | |
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| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 18:12 - Aug 29 with 1429 views | EdwardStone |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 17:32 - Aug 28 by Radlett_blue |
So called "renewable" energy is actually expensive & inefficient. If we hadn't discouraged investment in the North Sea & encouraged fracking, we wouldn't be so dependent on imported gas. We are now facing a severe energy crisis. Investing more in nuclear would have been another sensible strategy. |
Top trolling Mr Radlett
Totally wrong on every single one of your assertions there.
I'm astonished that you bain't standing for Tory Leader with your "grasp" of the issues and solutions
Solar bad, fracking and nukes good....... as a society were are truly doomed if you are for real |  | | |
| Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of our thoughtlessness in 2022. on 11:06 - Aug 30 with 1225 views | NthQldITFC |
Really worthy of a new thread, that one, given the no ifs-or-buts 'it is going to happen' language. I bottled out yesterday as I am doubting my "keep shouting it out; don't worry about being div listed" strategy. | |
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