| Gamechanger and the ROI 19:05 - May 15 with 7860 views | TalkingBlues |
I haven't been through numbers in any sort of detail, but from memory they have chucked in £14 million so far (?) includes player purchases, new pitch, stand and training ground improvements etc, feels like that money has actually gone quite a long way.
We should receive about £1.3 million for the season we just had in League 1 and and that steps up to between £7 million and £8 million into the coffers next season, so already guaranteed around £8 million to £9 million in receipts from TV/Solidarity (I wanna 'ave babies, and be called Loretta) payments. As far as I can see, they've recouped a massive amount of their initial investment already and the club will benefit long term, from the new pitch and stand upgrades etc, no matter what happens from here on out. They're making the business of football look easy at the moment, aren't they? With a pot of £200,000,000 available for another promotion and the initial outlay they made virtually recovered, I doubt it will take much encouragement to dip their hands even deeper into their pockets this time around.
COYB's!!!! |  |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:12 - May 15 with 4827 views | Matt_Netherlands |
Id imagine they’ve put in a fair bit more than that. Ashton mentioned the pitch alone costing north of £1m. Then take into account the big increase in staff volumes (including directors who will be on a fair packet), as well as players presumably triggering bonuses and pay rises by getting promoted. |  | | |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:13 - May 15 with 4812 views | WeWereZombies |
Yes, but what's that got to do with the Republic of Ireland ? Although I guess from the detail in your post you are the type who would have typed RoI for that...or is it RoI for Return on Investment ?
Anyway, good points. I can't see that Gamechanger 20 would have invested in Town if there wasn't a potential return and would also want to see the signs quickly. Where it will become interesting is when we are more established at a higher level (and I hope that is mot wishful thinking on my part) because I expect to see a serious moneyball element enter proceeding then - how well will McKenna respond to any plans Ashton has for players to be sold on at significant profits ? |  |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:14 - May 15 with 4805 views | Metal_Hacker |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:12 - May 15 by Matt_Netherlands |
Id imagine they’ve put in a fair bit more than that. Ashton mentioned the pitch alone costing north of £1m. Then take into account the big increase in staff volumes (including directors who will be on a fair packet), as well as players presumably triggering bonuses and pay rises by getting promoted. |
I’ve not a clue but seems TB has a handle on the club’s finances somehow
I’d imagine it to be a bigger gulf between investment and recouping though |  |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:16 - May 15 with 4800 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:12 - May 15 by Matt_Netherlands |
Id imagine they’ve put in a fair bit more than that. Ashton mentioned the pitch alone costing north of £1m. Then take into account the big increase in staff volumes (including directors who will be on a fair packet), as well as players presumably triggering bonuses and pay rises by getting promoted. |
I don’t know how much they’ve put in, but thought I remembered Big Phil saying they’d bought £14 million of shares, which seems to be the way of getting money into clubs now and I’m not aware of any further purchase?
Obviously wages etc will accrue over a longer period, but I’d imagine we also have a lot more commercial revenue coming in now than we did before, which you’d think could cover a lot of staff wages. | |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:21 - May 15 with 4761 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:13 - May 15 by WeWereZombies |
Yes, but what's that got to do with the Republic of Ireland ? Although I guess from the detail in your post you are the type who would have typed RoI for that...or is it RoI for Return on Investment ?
Anyway, good points. I can't see that Gamechanger 20 would have invested in Town if there wasn't a potential return and would also want to see the signs quickly. Where it will become interesting is when we are more established at a higher level (and I hope that is mot wishful thinking on my part) because I expect to see a serious moneyball element enter proceeding then - how well will McKenna respond to any plans Ashton has for players to be sold on at significant profits ? |
Lol, yes it was a Return On Investment abbreviation 😀
The numbers must look fantastic so far, compared to the horror stories we regularly hear about huge debts at most clubs. I think we could hold our own in the Championship even with the current squad tbh, but it doesn’t strike me that we have any investors that will be happy to just stay up, I’m certain that they will want to ride the crest and try and get up ASAP, which will take some canny negotiation for loans and some big money on signings no doubt, fun times! | |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:25 - May 15 with 4740 views | portmanking |
You're absolutely way off. They've invested three times that amount already.
We had a wage budget of £14m last season and £15.5m this season. How do you think that was paid for?
#TalkingBobbins |  | | |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:31 - May 15 with 4676 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:25 - May 15 by portmanking |
You're absolutely way off. They've invested three times that amount already.
We had a wage budget of £14m last season and £15.5m this season. How do you think that was paid for?
#TalkingBobbins |
Obviously I’ve not included the actual cost of buying the club, but for good reason, as that was something that was only ever going to be recovered through reaching the Premier League (if they stayed as owners, that cost would likely already be covered and actually profitable, if they wanted to sell the club now as a Championship club with a good income flow and no debt) but I wouldn’t think they’ve had to lay out another £42 million since then as you suggest, nothing like it.
We do have income streams at the club that cover costs, streams that have grown massively with Ed Sheeran sponsoring and season ticket sales, attendances etc. As I said, I don’t know the ins and outs of it, but I reckon they’ll be very happy with what’s happening financially already. [Post edited 15 May 2023 19:35]
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:34 - May 15 with 4665 views | Vegtablue |
Hope they feel that way! Phil's article:
www.twtd.co.uk/amp/news/44710/town-announce-%25C3%258212.6m-loss
"During the year the club issued £14.25 million in additional shares". If this refers to the 2022/23 year then the figure needs to be added to the losses/investment in their first year.
"Town's accounts for the year to June 2022 show total loss of £12.6 million in the year to June 30th 2022, the first season following the Gamechanger 20 Ltd." [Post edited 15 May 2023 19:34]
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:43 - May 15 with 4583 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:34 - May 15 by Vegtablue |
Hope they feel that way! Phil's article:
www.twtd.co.uk/amp/news/44710/town-announce-%25C3%258212.6m-loss
"During the year the club issued £14.25 million in additional shares". If this refers to the 2022/23 year then the figure needs to be added to the losses/investment in their first year.
"Town's accounts for the year to June 2022 show total loss of £12.6 million in the year to June 30th 2022, the first season following the Gamechanger 20 Ltd." [Post edited 15 May 2023 19:34]
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That all sounds very reasonable from an investment perspective and as I said earlier, they won’t have expected to recover a lot of that money for purchase and upgrading everything until we had been promoted, or reached the Prem, that was the risk. Remember though, that we are now a Championship club with no debt, so how much more is the club worth than it was even a season ago? A helluva lot I’d imagine, that’s why Gamechanger were focussing on a League 1 side to invest in in the first place from memory, as the cost of a Championship club was so much higher.
They could probably sell the club now and make a decent profit on their investment I reckon and we’re just getting started, it’s a win all round. [Post edited 15 May 2023 19:44]
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:52 - May 15 with 4516 views | nodge_blue |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:31 - May 15 by TalkingBlues |
Obviously I’ve not included the actual cost of buying the club, but for good reason, as that was something that was only ever going to be recovered through reaching the Premier League (if they stayed as owners, that cost would likely already be covered and actually profitable, if they wanted to sell the club now as a Championship club with a good income flow and no debt) but I wouldn’t think they’ve had to lay out another £42 million since then as you suggest, nothing like it.
We do have income streams at the club that cover costs, streams that have grown massively with Ed Sheeran sponsoring and season ticket sales, attendances etc. As I said, I don’t know the ins and outs of it, but I reckon they’ll be very happy with what’s happening financially already. [Post edited 15 May 2023 19:35]
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At the Fans forum, they said it was meeting the planned spend. But I think you are along way off your idea that they have recouped alot of their investment.
I don't think they will unless we get to the premier League and they sell us. The finance guy said a year ago that they have to somehow plan their exit strategy.
Whilst we will all take what's happened over stagnation and decline, we have to be realistic that one day the club will be sold with little or none of that going back into the club itself.
But thats the deal and it's not going to sold for a huge amount in the championship so not yet. And until we get up they will have to dig deeper if they want us in the PL.
The difficult thing to know is how long they will sustain it I'd we don't. |  |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:05 - May 15 with 4420 views | Mullet |
I wish I had your approach when looking at my bank account. |  |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:08 - May 15 with 4392 views | HighgateBlue |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:21 - May 15 by TalkingBlues |
Lol, yes it was a Return On Investment abbreviation 😀
The numbers must look fantastic so far, compared to the horror stories we regularly hear about huge debts at most clubs. I think we could hold our own in the Championship even with the current squad tbh, but it doesn’t strike me that we have any investors that will be happy to just stay up, I’m certain that they will want to ride the crest and try and get up ASAP, which will take some canny negotiation for loans and some big money on signings no doubt, fun times! |
Everything is going in the right direction, and the project is well on track. But the only way they make money is by selling up. Hardly any of the Premier League make an actual profit, and certainly none has been made thus far. The idea that they have recouped some of their investment thus far just because there are income streams that you have identified is ludicrous. The club is making a sizeable loss. That's fine, as long as the owners cover it. They are speculating to accumulate. But there hasn't been any accumulating yet. If you want to consider "the numbers", look at the actual accounts, and analyse those. |  | | |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:12 - May 15 with 4371 views | Illinoisblue |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:31 - May 15 by TalkingBlues |
Obviously I’ve not included the actual cost of buying the club, but for good reason, as that was something that was only ever going to be recovered through reaching the Premier League (if they stayed as owners, that cost would likely already be covered and actually profitable, if they wanted to sell the club now as a Championship club with a good income flow and no debt) but I wouldn’t think they’ve had to lay out another £42 million since then as you suggest, nothing like it.
We do have income streams at the club that cover costs, streams that have grown massively with Ed Sheeran sponsoring and season ticket sales, attendances etc. As I said, I don’t know the ins and outs of it, but I reckon they’ll be very happy with what’s happening financially already. [Post edited 15 May 2023 19:35]
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“I don’t know the ins and outs of it”. Nailed it. |  |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:13 - May 15 with 4368 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:52 - May 15 by nodge_blue |
At the Fans forum, they said it was meeting the planned spend. But I think you are along way off your idea that they have recouped alot of their investment.
I don't think they will unless we get to the premier League and they sell us. The finance guy said a year ago that they have to somehow plan their exit strategy.
Whilst we will all take what's happened over stagnation and decline, we have to be realistic that one day the club will be sold with little or none of that going back into the club itself.
But thats the deal and it's not going to sold for a huge amount in the championship so not yet. And until we get up they will have to dig deeper if they want us in the PL.
The difficult thing to know is how long they will sustain it I'd we don't. |
A championship club with no debt, extremely healthy revenue streams (21,000 season tickets, plus merchandise etc) and the current squad of players, has got to be worth at least £50,000,000 of anybody’s money I’d say, closer to £60,000,000 I would guesstimate, but even at the lower end of valuation they’d have covered their investment, but I reckon could turn a slight profit already.
As you say, there will have to be an exit strategy, but that’s got to be a few years off, with Premier League football being the target now, as any sale in between would be fairly pointless. The next round/s of investment though are literally only recoverable through promotion again, so it’ll be interesting to see what they’re prepared to risk, but the reward is so much greater than the step we’ve just made, that it would make sense to make every effort to get there and let’s face it, this entire investment would have been deemed “extremely high risk” in the first place, so they’re not blind to the costs and should be pleased with progress so far. | |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:16 - May 15 with 4346 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:08 - May 15 by HighgateBlue |
Everything is going in the right direction, and the project is well on track. But the only way they make money is by selling up. Hardly any of the Premier League make an actual profit, and certainly none has been made thus far. The idea that they have recouped some of their investment thus far just because there are income streams that you have identified is ludicrous. The club is making a sizeable loss. That's fine, as long as the owners cover it. They are speculating to accumulate. But there hasn't been any accumulating yet. If you want to consider "the numbers", look at the actual accounts, and analyse those. |
The accumulating is already happening, the club will already be vastly more valuable now as a Championship club and revenue streams have increased massively from a couple of seasons ago. As per any asset, you only realise profit when you sell, but you still gain value in the meantime. | |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:29 - May 15 with 4284 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:05 - May 15 by Mullet |
I wish I had your approach when looking at my bank account. |
Always ignore the biggest expenditures, they’ll only depress you ðŸ‘😀 | |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:30 - May 15 with 4281 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Did you also do Greece’s accounts when they joined the Euro? | | | |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:40 - May 15 with 4229 views | bluelagos |
Where to start...
The £200m pot I think, where did you get that from? |  |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:50 - May 15 with 4157 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:40 - May 15 by bluelagos |
Where to start...
The £200m pot I think, where did you get that from? |
As soon as you reach the Prem you’re guaranteed over £100,000,000 in payments, even if you get relegated (then you get all the parachute payments on top of course) so if you manage to get to the promise land without the debt portfolio of a third world country, you should realistically see the club valued at North of £200,000,000 and if you manage to finish anywhere near mid table, more like £300,000,000 to £500,000,000+
I’m looking purely at an investment perspective for Gamechanger and how they get their money back. | |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:52 - May 15 with 4141 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:30 - May 15 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Did you also do Greece’s accounts when they joined the Euro? |
They just copied Portugals numbers. | |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 21:02 - May 15 with 4075 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:12 - May 15 by Illinoisblue |
“I don’t know the ins and outs of it”. Nailed it. |
Obviously I don’t, but we can make some pretty decent guesstimates based on what we know of our financial position and previous club sales etc, I reckon the investors will be delighted so far. [Post edited 15 May 2023 21:06]
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 21:40 - May 15 with 3934 views | bluelagos |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:50 - May 15 by TalkingBlues |
As soon as you reach the Prem you’re guaranteed over £100,000,000 in payments, even if you get relegated (then you get all the parachute payments on top of course) so if you manage to get to the promise land without the debt portfolio of a third world country, you should realistically see the club valued at North of £200,000,000 and if you manage to finish anywhere near mid table, more like £300,000,000 to £500,000,000+
I’m looking purely at an investment perspective for Gamechanger and how they get their money back. |
The more you write the more apparent it is that you haven't the feintest clue what you are tslking about.
Making Frimmers look informed is some achievement. | |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 21:46 - May 15 with 3912 views | TalkingBlues |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 21:40 - May 15 by bluelagos |
The more you write the more apparent it is that you haven't the feintest clue what you are tslking about.
Making Frimmers look informed is some achievement. |
Lol, you waited all this time for that response?
I guess despite the frantic Googling, you couldn’t find anything that suggested I wasn’t in the right ball park? If inaccurate, please correct me, I’m only ball parking and would love some firm numbers. | |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 22:14 - May 15 with 3816 views | Guthrum |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 19:16 - May 15 by TalkingBlues |
I don’t know how much they’ve put in, but thought I remembered Big Phil saying they’d bought £14 million of shares, which seems to be the way of getting money into clubs now and I’m not aware of any further purchase?
Obviously wages etc will accrue over a longer period, but I’d imagine we also have a lot more commercial revenue coming in now than we did before, which you’d think could cover a lot of staff wages. |
That £14m share issue was just to offset the operating losses - £12.6m after player sales - in 2021-22, to prevent us from falling foul of overspending rules, presumably. Those losses include all the income from attendances (already significantly higher than 2018-19, the last full season before Covid) and £3m of Solidarity/TV money, plus £3.4m commercial income and £2.3m merchandise.
Wages alone (inc. NI and pensions) were £16.4m in 2021-22. They will inevitably be higher in the Championship. Probably at least by a third, if pre-relegation figures are anything to go by. The extra £5m Solidarity/TV money we'll be getting will do little more than even that out.
Gamechanger are a long way from breaking even at this stage.
All figures from annual reports filed at Companies House: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00315421/fili |  |
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| Gamechanger and the ROI on 22:16 - May 15 with 3812 views | Vegtablue |
| Gamechanger and the ROI on 20:13 - May 15 by TalkingBlues |
A championship club with no debt, extremely healthy revenue streams (21,000 season tickets, plus merchandise etc) and the current squad of players, has got to be worth at least £50,000,000 of anybody’s money I’d say, closer to £60,000,000 I would guesstimate, but even at the lower end of valuation they’d have covered their investment, but I reckon could turn a slight profit already.
As you say, there will have to be an exit strategy, but that’s got to be a few years off, with Premier League football being the target now, as any sale in between would be fairly pointless. The next round/s of investment though are literally only recoverable through promotion again, so it’ll be interesting to see what they’re prepared to risk, but the reward is so much greater than the step we’ve just made, that it would make sense to make every effort to get there and let’s face it, this entire investment would have been deemed “extremely high risk” in the first place, so they’re not blind to the costs and should be pleased with progress so far. |
They'll be delighted with progress 100%. And I'd like to think we'd be a very attractive prospect. EFL clubs are money pits though aren't they! | | | |
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