| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? 13:44 - Sep 13 with 1374 views | Asa |
A few mates wanted Southgate gone after the Euro final defeat. Pretty reactionary stuff but my opinion of Southgate at the time was that he'd done a terrific job. Followed a World Cup SF with a first ever Euro's final that we were a spot kick or two away from winning and building a statue one day.
The more than time has gone on however, I am wondering how much of what Southgate has achieved is really that terrific compared to expectations. In the same way that I loved Mick when he was getting us into the play-offs on far less than some other teams were spending, I now look back on the Mick era with a very different perspective.
McCarthy worked wonders in some aspects. But he also had some very, very good players. The style wasn't always horrible, we played some lovely stuff. But so much of what made McCarthy elevated in my opinion at the time was how poor what went before had been.
For a country that invented the game and has, pretty much always, had one of the best, top 3, top 6 squads on paper going into every tournament, it's criminal we'd had one World Cup final, a World Cup SF and an Euro's SF before Southgate.
So the reality is that back to back top 4 finishes in tournaments is really where we should be fairly consistently, give or take a Beckham sending off, a Campbell disallowed goal, Waddle hitting a post. It's not exactly Greece winning the Euro's. It's achieving the sort of levels we should with the players we have. But with Southgate, like McCarthy, the lack of success before heavily contributed to holding him in a higher regard.
In that time we have a World Cup where we didn't face anyone great, until we played Croatia, which we lost. Tactically we got it very wrong in my opinion.
In the Euro's we played one team you'd expect us to have problems with, Germany, a relatively poor German side in a tournament we effectively played at home, before we failed tactically again in the final, like Croatia, surrendering a lead.
Southgate has to take responsibility himself in the Maguire situation. When I saw he was the only change last night my immediate thought was giving the Scotland crowd a lift, which it did with the way they mocked him. It was obvious and almost cruel subjecting Maguire to that, in a derby, whereas any other international game I expect the opposition crowd would have little idea what was going on with Maguire for it to be a collective crowd response.
It just makes me wonder if Southgate has been a bit lucky overall. A weak World Cup run, a home Euro's (Ukraine aside). We are always going to qualify and look brilliant against the sort of teams we are largely paired with. But we now seem to be suffering from ridiculous loyalty to the likes of Henderson and Maguire whilst world class talents sit on the bench.
Feels for me he's very much at that point where McCarthy was when we all knew it had to end, but it went on far longer than it should have done. With qualification looming, I can imagine the FA taking the same stance than Evans did and being happy for things to just continue down this path for quite some time. |  | | |  |
| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 13:54 - Sep 13 with 1315 views | JakeITFC |
He will go after the Euros.
I personally look back at his England career as a huge success, and I think it is important context to remember how much of a mess he inherited - Hodgson had us playing turgid football with an ageing squad, Allardyce had brought the FA into disrepute and the stick to beat Southgate with was that he was just a yes man (despite having turned down the job previously).
His strengths are clear to see - a brilliant man manager who has created a culture and environment that players now want to be a part of, coupled with the ability to embrace modern styles and analytics as to how to be successful in tournaments.
His major glaring flaw is that he isn't particularly astute within games. I was in the stadium in all of the big defeats of his tenure - Croatia in Moscow in 2018, Netherlands in Guimaraes in 2019 and Italy at Wembley in 2021 and there was a horrible recurring theme of getting ahead and playing deeper and deeper until the midfield on the opposition could run the show. This is incredibly frustrating and I can understand the sentiment in calling for his head with that in mind. What I would add to that is that I thought Qatar was his best tournament in terms of tactics - we very nearly did a job on France and were unlucky to lose. |  | | |
| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 13:58 - Sep 13 with 1285 views | blueislander |
To even try to compare Southgate and McCarthy is nonsense. Southgate’s record as England’s manager is pretty much unsurpassed. Although Allardyce does have a 100% record!
Southgate is a very modern manager and coach . To compare him with McKenna would be more meaningful. | | | |
| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 14:21 - Sep 13 with 1213 views | rickw |
Southgate was pretty inexperienced when he got the job and has largely been learning as he goes. He has got a lot right in terms of getting the players united and not playing like they have the weight of the world on them - these are things previous managers didn't achieve!
I think tactically he has been learning as he goes and improving all the time, Terry Hollands has been working closely with him. He'll always be a naturally cautious coach - I don't think that will change - he was a defender. But hopefully he'll get the hang making game changing substitutions as that's really all that has stopped us winning anything. |  |
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| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 14:23 - Sep 13 with 1205 views | J2BLUE |
Nah. I can see him staying for the next world cup just because there are no great candidates to replace him.
He's done a decent job. My one big criticism is the Euro final where it was crying out for us to really go for it earlier. As harsh as it sounds I think his reign will only be a success if he wins something. I think we can say he did a good job but when winning tournaments is everything could you really say it was a success? |  |
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| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 14:47 - Sep 13 with 1135 views | davblue |
| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 14:23 - Sep 13 by J2BLUE |
Nah. I can see him staying for the next world cup just because there are no great candidates to replace him.
He's done a decent job. My one big criticism is the Euro final where it was crying out for us to really go for it earlier. As harsh as it sounds I think his reign will only be a success if he wins something. I think we can say he did a good job but when winning tournaments is everything could you really say it was a success? |
Howe is a excellent candidate. Think he's an England manager in waiting, his Newcastle team are more streetwise than his Bournemouth teams. |  | | |
| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 15:48 - Sep 13 with 985 views | ronnyd |
| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 14:47 - Sep 13 by davblue |
Howe is a excellent candidate. Think he's an England manager in waiting, his Newcastle team are more streetwise than his Bournemouth teams. |
Think you'll find that his resources are a tad more at Newcastle. | | | |
| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 15:54 - Sep 13 with 959 views | ElephantintheRoom |
You’re forgetting those pesky foreigners that occasionally have good teams themselves…. And tournaments are knock out football where anything can happen.
Just because the media hypes up England players doesn’t mean they are ‘world class’ and rarely have England gone into tournaments with a glaringly good team. Until recently I’d suggest perhaps two England players would get into France’s team for example.
The emergence of Bellingham changes the dynamic currently because England now actually do have a ‘world class’ player… and half a dozen in the supporting act, plus Kane if fit. The defence isn’t that settled/good at the moment though…so once again there would be a question mark. When competitive games arrive.
However, given Belgium’s golden generation I’d suggest England have done rather well. It’s not Southgate’s fault that France have had better players for the last five years. | |
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| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 16:02 - Sep 13 with 950 views | PioneerBlue |
Winning in big tournaments can’t really be the only measure of success here. He is a nation level persona as a leader, the players want to play for their country again, and that shows in the way the succeed even in a friendly. I love the team England spirt. Icing on the cake now with several years of relative progress/ stability is a tournament win or appearance in a wc final. I would t use that measure to determine binary pass fail for Southgate once he leaves England. | |
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| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 16:42 - Sep 13 with 890 views | Mullet |
Both incredible men, incredible managers, criticised by the lower orders innit. But that's as far as the comparison goes. |  |
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| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 18:01 - Sep 13 with 800 views | davblue |
| Is the Southgate effect becoming a bit similar to the McCarthy effect? on 15:48 - Sep 13 by ronnyd |
Think you'll find that his resources are a tad more at Newcastle. |
Of course but he spent a lot of money at Bournemouth but he’s changed modified his style of play. | | | |
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