| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. 11:39 - Nov 10 with 2983 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Let's say you're in your mid to late 30's to early 40's. With your lived experience of mass surveillance, restricted movement and oppression and seeing the continuing drift to the right in Israel, what would be your constructive response, with a realistic chance of leading to meaningful change, rather than resorting to violence? |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 11:45 - Nov 10 with 2126 views | ElephantintheRoom |
I’d do what my nephew’s girlfriend had done and emigrate. |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 13:40 - Nov 10 with 2083 views | positivity |
i know what desmond tutu, martin luther king, lech walesa, alexei navalny and aung san suu kyi (yes, i'm aware she's been involved in some less peaceful stuff since) would do, but you'd have to be a better person than me...
the unpopularity of netanyahu before the hamas atrocities would be just about the only thing to give me some hope | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:02 - Nov 10 with 2041 views | GlasgowBlue |
If only we had numerous threads about the subject that you could vent your feelings on. Then you wouldn't have had to start this one. |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:09 - Nov 10 with 2035 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Even if you had a propensity toward eye for an eye, surely that could be targeted toward the military/regime rather than gunning down/raping/beheading a load of kids at a concert.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2023 14:14]
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:12 - Nov 10 with 2023 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:02 - Nov 10 by GlasgowBlue |
If only we had numerous threads about the subject that you could vent your feelings on. Then you wouldn't have had to start this one. |
Don't be such a bore GB.
It is a genuine and very specific question, at the heart of the issue for which I, as a pacifist by nature, haven't got an answer. It sounds like you don't either.
Genuinely curious for some thoughts. [Post edited 10 Nov 2023 18:57]
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:15 - Nov 10 with 2009 views | Ryorry |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:02 - Nov 10 by GlasgowBlue |
If only we had numerous threads about the subject that you could vent your feelings on. Then you wouldn't have had to start this one. |
I’m guessing he wants to keep the issue at the forefront of our minds.
As if there’s any chance of it dropping off there, given that it’s remained the headline news on every bulletin on every outlet since 7/10.
As no-one on TWTD has yet been able to resolve the issue and I’ve given it my best shot, I think I’m out! |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:15 - Nov 10 with 2004 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:09 - Nov 10 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Even if you had a propensity toward eye for an eye, surely that could be targeted toward the military/regime rather than gunning down/raping/beheading a load of kids at a concert.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2023 14:14]
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The state of you....so a reply and down vote determined by a completely inaccurate presumption on my motive for asking.
However your answer in that you don't have a peaceful option to share is telling. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:19 - Nov 10 with 1973 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:15 - Nov 10 by Ryorry |
I’m guessing he wants to keep the issue at the forefront of our minds.
As if there’s any chance of it dropping off there, given that it’s remained the headline news on every bulletin on every outlet since 7/10.
As no-one on TWTD has yet been able to resolve the issue and I’ve given it my best shot, I think I’m out! |
It's just an exercise in empathy Ryorry and it is telling that nobody, including myself, can think of a meaningful peaceful avenue. Depressing really isn't it! Oh btw I made the same point as you about giving the women a go on a previous thread but that ain't happening anytime soon. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:19 - Nov 10 with 1971 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:15 - Nov 10 by BanksterDebtSlave |
The state of you....so a reply and down vote determined by a completely inaccurate presumption on my motive for asking.
However your answer in that you don't have a peaceful option to share is telling. |
I’ve edited my response because it’s unfair to respond based on your previous posting.
But of course I don’t have an answer, and based on the last 70 years nobody in any position of power does. | | | |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:21 - Nov 10 with 1957 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:19 - Nov 10 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I’ve edited my response because it’s unfair to respond based on your previous posting.
But of course I don’t have an answer, and based on the last 70 years nobody in any position of power does. |
Thanks, although none of my previous posting has supported the use of violence either. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:24 - Nov 10 with 1947 views | Ryorry |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:19 - Nov 10 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It's just an exercise in empathy Ryorry and it is telling that nobody, including myself, can think of a meaningful peaceful avenue. Depressing really isn't it! Oh btw I made the same point as you about giving the women a go on a previous thread but that ain't happening anytime soon. |
I did see your point about “giving women a chance” to resolve the issue, and referenced it a couple of times. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:26 - Nov 10 with 1943 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 13:40 - Nov 10 by positivity |
i know what desmond tutu, martin luther king, lech walesa, alexei navalny and aung san suu kyi (yes, i'm aware she's been involved in some less peaceful stuff since) would do, but you'd have to be a better person than me...
the unpopularity of netanyahu before the hamas atrocities would be just about the only thing to give me some hope |
As it happens the one thought I had along these lines was for the Gazan and or West Bank populations to leave the areas completely en masse into Israel hands held high. Hamas and the IDF would have had some decisions to make then. So that is specific to the situation now but the question asked is more about the general one before and after these events. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:31 - Nov 10 with 1922 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:21 - Nov 10 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Thanks, although none of my previous posting has supported the use of violence either. |
That is fair enough and I don’t dispute that. i thought you were trying to be inflammatory, so apologies.
Personally I think peace can only come from (and the key here is PROSPEROUS), fully independent Palestinian Territories. The main challenges I see would be stopping Iranian weapons heading there, at least in the short term. And perhaps even more problematic is the fair share of natural resources (water and energy), which lets be honest is the main source of human conflict (aside from perhaps religion). | | | |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:56 - Nov 10 with 1799 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:31 - Nov 10 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
That is fair enough and I don’t dispute that. i thought you were trying to be inflammatory, so apologies.
Personally I think peace can only come from (and the key here is PROSPEROUS), fully independent Palestinian Territories. The main challenges I see would be stopping Iranian weapons heading there, at least in the short term. And perhaps even more problematic is the fair share of natural resources (water and energy), which lets be honest is the main source of human conflict (aside from perhaps religion). |
I agree that advocating for such is the sensible option. If I was an individual Palestinian who had been doing so for say the last 20 years it would very much feel you were swimming against a strengthening tide. I think that any sense of hope may have long since departed. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:58 - Nov 10 with 1790 views | Buhrer |
Sounds crap. I'd rather imagine I was the billionaire son of a Saudi construction magnate, with close ties to the Saudi royalty, fighting sardaukar in the desert.
Same end result in your glorious thought experiment but an easier ride to mass murder cos I'm a lazy pampered bustard. |  | | |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 15:03 - Nov 10 with 1781 views | nodge_blue |
Mass surveillance and restricted movements doesnt sound like it equals machine gunning families.
But certainly Israel should have and should do many things differently. There should be a free Palestinian state to resolve it. |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 16:01 - Nov 10 with 1705 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 14:58 - Nov 10 by Buhrer |
Sounds crap. I'd rather imagine I was the billionaire son of a Saudi construction magnate, with close ties to the Saudi royalty, fighting sardaukar in the desert.
Same end result in your glorious thought experiment but an easier ride to mass murder cos I'm a lazy pampered bustard. |
Hilarious. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 16:02 - Nov 10 with 1697 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 15:03 - Nov 10 by nodge_blue |
Mass surveillance and restricted movements doesnt sound like it equals machine gunning families.
But certainly Israel should have and should do many things differently. There should be a free Palestinian state to resolve it. |
Again that wasn't the question posed. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 17:10 - Nov 10 with 1632 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I simply can’t imagine living in Gaza under a terrorist regime that uses the general population as human shields, keeps everyone oppressed, builds down instead of up and then butchers 1500 innocent Israelis knowing what the retaliation will be. |  | | |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 17:13 - Nov 10 with 1613 views | baxterbasics |
I'd apply for a job with Mossad |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 18:10 - Nov 10 with 1533 views | jayessess |
The West Bank part of the question is awkward of course, because although Hamas aren't in charge, just a secular government that is as co-operative with the occupying power as anyone could reasonably expect, the dynamics of the conflict are still largely the same for the Palestinians. Still theft of water sources and land, destruction of crops, impunity for everyday harassment, violence, murder by settlers and military, still living under a security state in a ghetto of ever decreasing size.
To answer the question. Having the privilege of looking at the situation dispassionately, living in a place that has not known war during my lifetime, I'd probably discount most violence as fruitless. As a colonised society Palestine is more like South Africa than Algeria or Kenya. Like South Africa, there's no real military road to Palestinian liberation (yes, the ANC had an armed wing, but it's not really a decisive factor in the end of apartheid). So, I suppose that means (a) build an international solidarity movement and international boycott (b) mass protests, strikes, enlist supporters in Israeli civil society are the most realistic routes. But, it's pretty easy for me to sit here from my living room and counsel patience and coalition building, when it's not my family's farm getting taken over by settlers, nor my relatives getting beaten, shot and bombed. |  |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 18:55 - Nov 10 with 1455 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 18:10 - Nov 10 by jayessess |
The West Bank part of the question is awkward of course, because although Hamas aren't in charge, just a secular government that is as co-operative with the occupying power as anyone could reasonably expect, the dynamics of the conflict are still largely the same for the Palestinians. Still theft of water sources and land, destruction of crops, impunity for everyday harassment, violence, murder by settlers and military, still living under a security state in a ghetto of ever decreasing size.
To answer the question. Having the privilege of looking at the situation dispassionately, living in a place that has not known war during my lifetime, I'd probably discount most violence as fruitless. As a colonised society Palestine is more like South Africa than Algeria or Kenya. Like South Africa, there's no real military road to Palestinian liberation (yes, the ANC had an armed wing, but it's not really a decisive factor in the end of apartheid). So, I suppose that means (a) build an international solidarity movement and international boycott (b) mass protests, strikes, enlist supporters in Israeli civil society are the most realistic routes. But, it's pretty easy for me to sit here from my living room and counsel patience and coalition building, when it's not my family's farm getting taken over by settlers, nor my relatives getting beaten, shot and bombed. |
A considered reply. Thanks. I agree about most violence being fruitless while also understanding that sometimes it can feel like the only option for expression of discontent.
Regarding boycotts I believe that laws have been passed to prevent councils from taking part in any. While also agreeing that the long route of bridge building and reaching out is the most likely course to a sustainable solution the sad reality for those trying that route is that even before current events the destination must have seemed further away than ever.
In short to be Palestinian in Israel must be to be devoid of almost any hope. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 19:14 - Nov 10 with 1412 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 18:55 - Nov 10 by BanksterDebtSlave |
A considered reply. Thanks. I agree about most violence being fruitless while also understanding that sometimes it can feel like the only option for expression of discontent.
Regarding boycotts I believe that laws have been passed to prevent councils from taking part in any. While also agreeing that the long route of bridge building and reaching out is the most likely course to a sustainable solution the sad reality for those trying that route is that even before current events the destination must have seemed further away than ever.
In short to be Palestinian in Israel must be to be devoid of almost any hope. |
A Palestinian in Israel can become a member of the Knesset, a Judge, a police officer, a soldier and even the Captain of the Israel national football team. They can also hold hands and kiss another man in public. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 19:35 - Nov 10 with 1373 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 17:10 - Nov 10 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I simply can’t imagine living in Gaza under a terrorist regime that uses the general population as human shields, keeps everyone oppressed, builds down instead of up and then butchers 1500 innocent Israelis knowing what the retaliation will be. |
Go with the West Bank then if you 're struggling to separate Gazan Palestinians from terrorists. Although it sounds as if you must have been there. | |
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| Imagine you have been born in Gaza or the West Bank. on 19:43 - Nov 10 with 1337 views | Kropotkin123 |
Imagine you have been born in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv
Let's say you're in your mid to late 30's to early 40's. With your lived experience of rockets being fired at you, Sponsorship of militant groups by Iran, people coming across the border and murdering innocent civilians in the thousands and seeing the continuing drift to the extremism in Gaza, what would be your constructive response, with a realistic chance of leading to meaningful change, rather than resorting to violence?
Don't think it surves us well to justify either side. Both sides have their rational and both sides have made decisions that contributed to this situation. |  |
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