| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah 22:39 - Sep 25 with 11853 views | WicklowBlue |
Wanted to start a new thread on the history behind where things are today.
I am no historian nor ever really had a deep insight into what has led up to recent times.
I read this article earlier today which I thought was insightful personally in terms of historical context so thought I'd share for hopefully a reseasoned discussion: (namely not picking sides, as all have done abhorrent things to each other, and honestly no agenda on my behalf)
RTE news : What happened when Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982?
http://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2024/0925/1471773-israel-lebanon-invasion-1982-oper |  | | |  |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 23:30 - Sep 25 with 6392 views | reusersfreekicks |
Interesting thanks |  | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 08:27 - Sep 26 with 6166 views | victorywilhappen |
A good article. Thanks for sharing. |  | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 08:49 - Sep 26 with 6167 views | Swansea_Blue |
As Martin Luther King put it: “Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness”. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 08:51 - Sep 26 with 6160 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Good article. As with much of the Middle East, their support is very much along sectarian lines - and was very much in decline in recent years as sanctions impacted their ability to run social functions within Lebanon. They also fought in the Syrian Civil war against Sunni groups, which further reduced their support amongst Lebanon’s Sunni’s.
Their power projection means their level of power transcends the level of political support - the most heavily armed non-state entity in the world. [Post edited 26 Sep 2024 9:20]
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 09:13 - Sep 26 with 6092 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
A good read and shows that merely dismissing Hezbollah as 'terrorists' is somewhat simplistic. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 09:40 - Sep 26 with 6053 views | Ftnfwest |
There was the little matter of the Syrian army occupying two thirds of Lebanon at the time and for 10 or 15 years I think, without invitation which didn't help. |  | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 09:55 - Sep 26 with 5999 views | Cafe_Newman |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 08:51 - Sep 26 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Good article. As with much of the Middle East, their support is very much along sectarian lines - and was very much in decline in recent years as sanctions impacted their ability to run social functions within Lebanon. They also fought in the Syrian Civil war against Sunni groups, which further reduced their support amongst Lebanon’s Sunni’s.
Their power projection means their level of power transcends the level of political support - the most heavily armed non-state entity in the world. [Post edited 26 Sep 2024 9:20]
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Somewhat understandably, there's far too much over-simplification of the nature and operations of Hezbollah in our media.
https://www.ibtimes.com/christian-sunni-shia-meet-hezbollahs-non-denominational- |  | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:26 - Sep 26 with 5917 views | victorywilhappen |
The following entities do not consider Hezbollah a terror organisation:
Arab League-
Algeria-
People's Republic of China [
Cuba -
Iran -
North Korea-
Russia-
Syria - | | | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:22 - Sep 26 with 5806 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:26 - Sep 26 by victorywilhappen |
The following entities do not consider Hezbollah a terror organisation:
Arab League-
Algeria-
People's Republic of China [
Cuba -
Iran -
North Korea-
Russia-
Syria - |
and Banksy. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:32 - Sep 26 with 5773 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:22 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
and Banksy. |
*yawn* | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:43 - Sep 26 with 5729 views | noggin |
"The creation of the state of Israel in 1948 was accompanied by the Nakba, or "catastrophe," for the Palestinians. In the violent birth pangs of a Jewish state on land inhabited by, among others, Arab populations with deep ancestral ties to villages, more than 750,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled."
Yet the arabs are the terrorists. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 12:07 - Sep 26 with 5662 views | Guthrum |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:43 - Sep 26 by noggin |
"The creation of the state of Israel in 1948 was accompanied by the Nakba, or "catastrophe," for the Palestinians. In the violent birth pangs of a Jewish state on land inhabited by, among others, Arab populations with deep ancestral ties to villages, more than 750,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled."
Yet the arabs are the terrorists. |
A catastrophe caused by Palestine's Arab neighbours.
There was a UN partition plan in 1948 which would have created a two-state solution within the former British Mandate. But the surrounding Arab powers decided to launch a war to destroy Israel. A war which they lost, badly - then Egypt and Jordan decided to annex what remained of Palestinian territory (Gaza and the West Bank) for themselves, while Israel kept more than their proposed allocation. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 12:38 - Sep 26 with 5559 views | Blueschev |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 12:07 - Sep 26 by Guthrum |
A catastrophe caused by Palestine's Arab neighbours.
There was a UN partition plan in 1948 which would have created a two-state solution within the former British Mandate. But the surrounding Arab powers decided to launch a war to destroy Israel. A war which they lost, badly - then Egypt and Jordan decided to annex what remained of Palestinian territory (Gaza and the West Bank) for themselves, while Israel kept more than their proposed allocation. |
Why would an Arab majority population accept a plan that stripped them of the majority of their land and gave it to somebody else? And even if they had do you think there would now be two states living side by side in peace? |  | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 12:59 - Sep 26 with 5465 views | Guthrum |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 12:38 - Sep 26 by Blueschev |
Why would an Arab majority population accept a plan that stripped them of the majority of their land and gave it to somebody else? And even if they had do you think there would now be two states living side by side in peace? |
Firstly, it was a division based upon areas of majority population. So it wasn't stripping or giving to someone else. Secondly, the region had been ruled by the Ottomans (who frequently oppressed the Arabs), then the British, then (briefly) the United Nations, so it would have meant the first establishment of their own state, not the division of something they formerly administered.
As to whether they could have lived together in peace, that is unknowable as the violence is entirely predicated upon those events*. Plenty of countries have partitioned successfully.
* Tho vigourously stoked by players in the Cold War. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 13:09 - Sep 26 with 5414 views | Bobbychase |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 09:40 - Sep 26 by Ftnfwest |
There was the little matter of the Syrian army occupying two thirds of Lebanon at the time and for 10 or 15 years I think, without invitation which didn't help. |
Didn't Hezbollah assassinate a democratically-elected Lebanese Prime Minister as well? In their bid to turn it from a diverse, tolerant multi-faith country into one they can control.
A lot of Iranians and Syrians despise Hezbollah, with good reason. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 13:10 - Sep 26 with 5410 views | Blueschev |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 12:59 - Sep 26 by Guthrum |
Firstly, it was a division based upon areas of majority population. So it wasn't stripping or giving to someone else. Secondly, the region had been ruled by the Ottomans (who frequently oppressed the Arabs), then the British, then (briefly) the United Nations, so it would have meant the first establishment of their own state, not the division of something they formerly administered.
As to whether they could have lived together in peace, that is unknowable as the violence is entirely predicated upon those events*. Plenty of countries have partitioned successfully.
* Tho vigourously stoked by players in the Cold War. |
I'm aware there was never an independent state of Palestine, but that doesn't take away from the fact that when the partition plan was proposed in 1947, there was an Arab majority being asked to accept less than half of the land on which they resided. They were never going to accept it. | | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 13:26 - Sep 26 with 5370 views | Guthrum |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 13:10 - Sep 26 by Blueschev |
I'm aware there was never an independent state of Palestine, but that doesn't take away from the fact that when the partition plan was proposed in 1947, there was an Arab majority being asked to accept less than half of the land on which they resided. They were never going to accept it. |
Less than half the land area, yes. But in those terms a large portion of the Jewish share was the Negev Desert. Much of the proposed (pretty thin) strip in the north and west was already Jewish owned and inhabited
The biggest problem with Partition Palestine would have been its non-contiguous nature. That is likely to have caused problems down the line. Plus arguments over internationalised Jerusalem. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:24 - Sep 26 with 5279 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 12:59 - Sep 26 by Guthrum |
Firstly, it was a division based upon areas of majority population. So it wasn't stripping or giving to someone else. Secondly, the region had been ruled by the Ottomans (who frequently oppressed the Arabs), then the British, then (briefly) the United Nations, so it would have meant the first establishment of their own state, not the division of something they formerly administered.
As to whether they could have lived together in peace, that is unknowable as the violence is entirely predicated upon those events*. Plenty of countries have partitioned successfully.
* Tho vigourously stoked by players in the Cold War. |
Indeed.
It was British Mandated Palestine. Not an independent Palestinian state.
As you say, before the British Mandate, there was the Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ottoman Empire, there was the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, there was the Ayubid Arab-Kurdish Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ayubid Empire, there was the Frankish and Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdom of Jerusalem, there was the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there were the Sassanids, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Sassanid Empire, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there was the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Roman Empire, there was the Hasmonean state, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Hasmonean state, there was the Seleucid, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Seleucid empire, there was the empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state.
Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was the Persian empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Persian Empire, there was the Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Babylonian Empire, there were the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, there was the Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the kingdom of Israel, there was the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian state. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:26 - Sep 26 with 5269 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 13:09 - Sep 26 by Bobbychase |
Didn't Hezbollah assassinate a democratically-elected Lebanese Prime Minister as well? In their bid to turn it from a diverse, tolerant multi-faith country into one they can control.
A lot of Iranians and Syrians despise Hezbollah, with good reason. |
It's complicated. They are misunderstood. Shouldn't be called terrorists. etc etc. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:30 - Sep 26 with 5269 views | WeWereZombies |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 13:26 - Sep 26 by Guthrum |
Less than half the land area, yes. But in those terms a large portion of the Jewish share was the Negev Desert. Much of the proposed (pretty thin) strip in the north and west was already Jewish owned and inhabited
The biggest problem with Partition Palestine would have been its non-contiguous nature. That is likely to have caused problems down the line. Plus arguments over internationalised Jerusalem. |
It would undoubtedly been a solution full of tension, mistrust and sporadic outbursts of violence to have mandated a two state solution back in 1948 but I think there are grounds for suggesting that it would have been better than the never ending switch from uneasy peace to paramilitary incursions to all out war and back that has occurred since. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:53 - Sep 26 with 5206 views | Whos_blue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:24 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed.
It was British Mandated Palestine. Not an independent Palestinian state.
As you say, before the British Mandate, there was the Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ottoman Empire, there was the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, there was the Ayubid Arab-Kurdish Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ayubid Empire, there was the Frankish and Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdom of Jerusalem, there was the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there were the Sassanids, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Sassanid Empire, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there was the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Roman Empire, there was the Hasmonean state, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Hasmonean state, there was the Seleucid, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Seleucid empire, there was the empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state.
Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was the Persian empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Persian Empire, there was the Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Babylonian Empire, there were the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, there was the Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the kingdom of Israel, there was the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian state. |
Blimey Glassers.
When you put it like that, it's little wonder why many people continue to show their support for a Palastinian state.
History doesn't seem in their favour. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:00 - Sep 26 with 5173 views | Blueschev |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:24 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed.
It was British Mandated Palestine. Not an independent Palestinian state.
As you say, before the British Mandate, there was the Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ottoman Empire, there was the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, there was the Ayubid Arab-Kurdish Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ayubid Empire, there was the Frankish and Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdom of Jerusalem, there was the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there were the Sassanids, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Sassanid Empire, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there was the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Roman Empire, there was the Hasmonean state, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Hasmonean state, there was the Seleucid, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Seleucid empire, there was the empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state.
Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was the Persian empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Persian Empire, there was the Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Babylonian Empire, there were the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, there was the Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the kingdom of Israel, there was the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian state. |
Well that tiktok meme cut and paste job has certainly convinced me. The Palestinians should just go back to where they came from. | | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:15 - Sep 26 with 5053 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:53 - Sep 26 by Whos_blue |
Blimey Glassers.
When you put it like that, it's little wonder why many people continue to show their support for a Palastinian state.
History doesn't seem in their favour. |
History shows that There was a Kingdom of Israel long before the name Palestine even existed. Even the name "Palestine" evolves from the Roman term "Syria Palaestina". When the Romans put down the Bar Kokhba revolt by the Jews against the occupation of Judea, the Romans renamed the Jewish homeland "Syria Palaestina".
I see people often refer to the Israelis as "colonisers", but the Palestinian people descend from the Muslim conquest of the Levant in the 7th century. Colonisers are the people that built on top of the Jewish story. For example, the Al-Aqsa Mosque was built on the ruins of the Second Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:55 - Sep 26 with 4947 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:00 - Sep 26 by Blueschev |
Well that tiktok meme cut and paste job has certainly convinced me. The Palestinians should just go back to where they came from. |
Firstly, could you please point out the inaccuracies in my post. Secondly, as you well know, I am an advocate of a two state solution so your final sentence is disingenuous.
That doesn't change the historical facts regarding that particular area of land.No matter how inconvenient those historical facts may be to some.
Getting back to partition. India was partitioned in the same year as British Mandate Palestine into India, East Pakistan and West Pakistan. More than 15 million people were uprooted, and between one and two million were killed, which he never hear of. However, despite the tensions that exist today, all sides made it work. It could have also worked in the long term with a two state solution to British Mandate Palestine. [Post edited 26 Sep 2024 16:02]
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:59 - Sep 26 with 4936 views | Guthrum |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:24 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed.
It was British Mandated Palestine. Not an independent Palestinian state.
As you say, before the British Mandate, there was the Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ottoman Empire, there was the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, there was the Ayubid Arab-Kurdish Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ayubid Empire, there was the Frankish and Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdom of Jerusalem, there was the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there were the Sassanids, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Sassanid Empire, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there was the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Roman Empire, there was the Hasmonean state, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Hasmonean state, there was the Seleucid, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Seleucid empire, there was the empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state.
Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was the Persian empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Persian Empire, there was the Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Babylonian Empire, there were the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, there was the Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the kingdom of Israel, there was the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian state. |
Tho the Philistines were a "Palestinian" state, given their name, assumed to be cognate with the Peleset (one of the Sea Peoples), is from whence the region derives its name.
There is also the Nabateans, a powerful, ethnically Arab trading kingdom which covered part of the region to the south and east of Judea up to the 1st century AD. The city of Petra being their capital. | |
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