| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 12:13 - Mar 10 with 3669 views | Zx1988 |
I imagine the stats concerning sales of family farms upon death of an owner (assuming they exist) would make for similarly shocking reading. |  |
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 12:14 - Mar 10 with 3659 views | MattinLondon |
So Isabel Oakeshott is now a non-integrating immigrant in a foreign country, probably living next to British immigrants. Not mixing with the indigenous population or learning the language?
Is this irony or hypocrisy? [Post edited 10 Mar 12:16]
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 12:37 - Mar 10 with 3528 views | Plums |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 12:14 - Mar 10 by MattinLondon |
So Isabel Oakeshott is now a non-integrating immigrant in a foreign country, probably living next to British immigrants. Not mixing with the indigenous population or learning the language?
Is this irony or hypocrisy? [Post edited 10 Mar 12:16]
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Fckwittery |  |
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 12:55 - Mar 10 with 3421 views | Blueschev |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 12:13 - Mar 10 by Zx1988 |
I imagine the stats concerning sales of family farms upon death of an owner (assuming they exist) would make for similarly shocking reading. |
I'd expect a huge majority of those farmers protesting will also be affected by VAT being added to private school fees. It's all so desperately unfair. |  | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 12:57 - Mar 10 with 3410 views | NthQldITFC |
One poster on here (sorry can't remember who) must either have had a change of heart, or the Grauniad don't consider one to constitute an exodus. [Post edited 10 Mar 12:57]
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 13:00 - Mar 10 with 3385 views | NthQldITFC |
'In more ways than one, it was a strange time to leave. After years of tireless campaigning, my partner Richard Tice had just become an MP – a thrilling opportunity to help change Britain for the better.'
I presume Tice went with her, and that's what she means by 'changing Britain for the better'? | |
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 13:06 - Mar 10 with 3361 views | _clive_baker_ |
Don't get me wrong, I don't have any issue in principle with this if it helps to raise £1.5bn into the public purse, but surely any impact was more likely over a much longer time period? Moving your child to a different school must be a really difficult decision to make when they're settled and have friendship groups etc. The Institute for Fiscal Studies forecast that adding VAT “would lead to a 3-7% reduction in private school attendance” in the medium to long term, it was never likely to be born out in the first few months.
The article suggests Surrey has seen c.10% more applications to State schools from kids currently in private education than last year, so that suggests there has at least been been some impact? Appreciate there might be other factors at play.
As I say, I'm all for it personally, but its probably a bit soon to form too many conclusions on the impact on state education. |  | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 13:15 - Mar 10 with 3303 views | DJR |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 12:14 - Mar 10 by MattinLondon |
So Isabel Oakeshott is now a non-integrating immigrant in a foreign country, probably living next to British immigrants. Not mixing with the indigenous population or learning the language?
Is this irony or hypocrisy? [Post edited 10 Mar 12:16]
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She a Brexiteer, as is her husband Richard Tice, who is splitting his time between the UK and Dubai.
You couldn't make it up. |  | | |
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 13:25 - Mar 10 with 3242 views | DJR |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 13:06 - Mar 10 by _clive_baker_ |
Don't get me wrong, I don't have any issue in principle with this if it helps to raise £1.5bn into the public purse, but surely any impact was more likely over a much longer time period? Moving your child to a different school must be a really difficult decision to make when they're settled and have friendship groups etc. The Institute for Fiscal Studies forecast that adding VAT “would lead to a 3-7% reduction in private school attendance” in the medium to long term, it was never likely to be born out in the first few months.
The article suggests Surrey has seen c.10% more applications to State schools from kids currently in private education than last year, so that suggests there has at least been been some impact? Appreciate there might be other factors at play.
As I say, I'm all for it personally, but its probably a bit soon to form too many conclusions on the impact on state education. |
Obviously we will have to see how it pans out in the long run but it certainly doesn't seem to be the exodus that the right wing media predicted.
As it is, the figures relate to those who got their first choice, which isn't the same as the number of applicants. And I thought this passage was interesting.
"Two local authorities with a high proportion of privately educated children did report a fall in first choice offers, including Gloucestershire, where the offer rate fell from 86% to 81% this year. But a spokesperson said the county council “did not believe” there was any link to VAT, adding: “It’s more to do with this being another bulge year and a cohort of parents applying for schools which are not their nearest.”" [Post edited 10 Mar 13:26]
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 14:01 - Mar 10 with 3144 views | Crawfordsboot |
The Guardian article is a pretty poor analysis hanging its hat on the fact that there has not been a boom in state schools applicants at year 7.
It fails to mention that just 6% of British children are educated privately. Therefore if a quarter of British kids in private education switched to the state system this would be approximately 1.5% more kids applying. Numbers suggest that schools are seeing fewer pupils going through the system - it is therefore possible that pupils transferring simply top up/hide a natural fall off in numbers.
There are also other factors to adjust for such as the higher numbers in private school sixth forms etc. All in all the report is light on any helpful facts. [Post edited 10 Mar 14:02]
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 15:09 - Mar 10 with 3027 views | DJR |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 14:01 - Mar 10 by Crawfordsboot |
The Guardian article is a pretty poor analysis hanging its hat on the fact that there has not been a boom in state schools applicants at year 7.
It fails to mention that just 6% of British children are educated privately. Therefore if a quarter of British kids in private education switched to the state system this would be approximately 1.5% more kids applying. Numbers suggest that schools are seeing fewer pupils going through the system - it is therefore possible that pupils transferring simply top up/hide a natural fall off in numbers.
There are also other factors to adjust for such as the higher numbers in private school sixth forms etc. All in all the report is light on any helpful facts. [Post edited 10 Mar 14:02]
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This is the explanation for focusing on year 7.
"Experts had identified the transition from primary to secondary school as the time when parents would be most likely to opt for state education after an increase in private school fees with the addition of VAT."
As regards the first two sentence of your second paragraph, you could be said to be arguing that the impact was never likely to be large. And whilst there is a decline in primary school-aged children (post-Brexit, Covid etc), there is still a bulge going through the secondary school system as the quote in an earlier post of mine indicates.
As regards sixth forms, I believe the higher percentage (not numbers), reflects the fact that many secondary school children opt for colleges and the like post-16. [Post edited 10 Mar 16:54]
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 16:23 - Mar 10 with 2935 views | BlueForYou |
Surely you can't judge that until after September this year? Would have thought that's when people decide on education for the coming school year? |  | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 16:52 - Mar 10 with 2872 views | DJR |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 16:23 - Mar 10 by BlueForYou |
Surely you can't judge that until after September this year? Would have thought that's when people decide on education for the coming school year? |
Parents of children in Year 6 found out secondary school allocations for September 2025 on 3 March, having made their applications in the autumn. [Post edited 10 Mar 16:53]
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 17:30 - Mar 10 with 2792 views | mellowblue |
One aspect rarely mentioned is that now those schools are VATable, they can now reclaim VAT on projects and purchases that include VAT. Takes a bit of the sting away. | | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 17:54 - Mar 10 with 2705 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 15:09 - Mar 10 by DJR |
This is the explanation for focusing on year 7.
"Experts had identified the transition from primary to secondary school as the time when parents would be most likely to opt for state education after an increase in private school fees with the addition of VAT."
As regards the first two sentence of your second paragraph, you could be said to be arguing that the impact was never likely to be large. And whilst there is a decline in primary school-aged children (post-Brexit, Covid etc), there is still a bulge going through the secondary school system as the quote in an earlier post of mine indicates.
As regards sixth forms, I believe the higher percentage (not numbers), reflects the fact that many secondary school children opt for colleges and the like post-16. [Post edited 10 Mar 16:54]
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Yes you make a number of reasonable points. My beef is that the article is so shallow as to be near worthless.
It will be interesting to see whether the Independent sector releases stats on the transfers from prep to senior schools along with comparators with prior years.
Also it will be interesting to see whether they have cut back on bursary funding now that they have had the charitable status VAT benefit removed. | | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 17:57 - Mar 10 with 2688 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 17:30 - Mar 10 by mellowblue |
One aspect rarely mentioned is that now those schools are VATable, they can now reclaim VAT on projects and purchases that include VAT. Takes a bit of the sting away. |
Also I wouldn’t be surprised if a number of schools cut back on funding bursaries, the awarding of which was aimed at preserving the befits of charitable status. | | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 18:01 - Mar 10 with 2668 views | DJR |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 17:54 - Mar 10 by Crawfordsboot |
Yes you make a number of reasonable points. My beef is that the article is so shallow as to be near worthless.
It will be interesting to see whether the Independent sector releases stats on the transfers from prep to senior schools along with comparators with prior years.
Also it will be interesting to see whether they have cut back on bursary funding now that they have had the charitable status VAT benefit removed. |
Yes, we'll just have to wait and see. [Post edited 10 Mar 18:02]
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 18:08 - Mar 10 with 2634 views | bluelagos |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 17:57 - Mar 10 by Crawfordsboot |
Also I wouldn’t be surprised if a number of schools cut back on funding bursaries, the awarding of which was aimed at preserving the befits of charitable status. |
And boosting their exam results... |  |
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 19:00 - Mar 10 with 2542 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 17:30 - Mar 10 by mellowblue |
One aspect rarely mentioned is that now those schools are VATable, they can now reclaim VAT on projects and purchases that include VAT. Takes a bit of the sting away. |
I don’t know this for a fact but………..
…. Wouldn’t the schools have been registered for VAT anyway - so would always have been able to reclaim VAT?
I would have thought they would have been, surely? |  |
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 19:34 - Mar 10 with 2472 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 18:08 - Mar 10 by bluelagos |
And boosting their exam results... |
I think you are confusing bursaries with scholarships.
In the face of threats of loss of charitable status the independent sector tended to move away from needs blind scholarships (which attracted the brightest) switching instead to awarding bursaries based on need and parental finances. | | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 19:49 - Mar 10 with 2440 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 19:00 - Mar 10 by Lord_Lucan |
I don’t know this for a fact but………..
…. Wouldn’t the schools have been registered for VAT anyway - so would always have been able to reclaim VAT?
I would have thought they would have been, surely? |
No they could only recover a tiny percentage of VAT on inputs.
When the provision of education was VAT exempt the majority of school income would be exempt. A VAT registered school could only recover VAT on expenses in proportion to its Vatable outputs. Usually these are minimal in the scheme of things. With fees becoming Vatable they will be able to recover virtually 100% of VAT on inputs.
With their major expense (teachers and staff salaries) being non Vatable the VAT on inputs (operating costs)will be less than half that on outputs(fee income). The difference between the two falls as a cost to parents. | | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 19:56 - Mar 10 with 2400 views | mellowblue |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 19:00 - Mar 10 by Lord_Lucan |
I don’t know this for a fact but………..
…. Wouldn’t the schools have been registered for VAT anyway - so would always have been able to reclaim VAT?
I would have thought they would have been, surely? |
It's what I read. If they were VAT registered pre 2025, the private schools would have been in a nice position of claiming back VAT on it's outgoings but paying no VAT on it's income. Not sure if that would have been allowed ? Not good for the exchequer. Maybe that is why many private schools are registered charities, so they could reclaim VAT? | | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 20:05 - Mar 10 with 2373 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 19:49 - Mar 10 by Crawfordsboot |
No they could only recover a tiny percentage of VAT on inputs.
When the provision of education was VAT exempt the majority of school income would be exempt. A VAT registered school could only recover VAT on expenses in proportion to its Vatable outputs. Usually these are minimal in the scheme of things. With fees becoming Vatable they will be able to recover virtually 100% of VAT on inputs.
With their major expense (teachers and staff salaries) being non Vatable the VAT on inputs (operating costs)will be less than half that on outputs(fee income). The difference between the two falls as a cost to parents. |
That sounds a bookkeeping nightmare.
"Mavis, can we claim the vat on these elastic bands or not"? | |
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| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 20:08 - Mar 10 with 2362 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 19:56 - Mar 10 by mellowblue |
It's what I read. If they were VAT registered pre 2025, the private schools would have been in a nice position of claiming back VAT on it's outgoings but paying no VAT on it's income. Not sure if that would have been allowed ? Not good for the exchequer. Maybe that is why many private schools are registered charities, so they could reclaim VAT? |
That’s wrong - see my comment above | | | |
| Well, knock me down with a feather! on 20:49 - Mar 10 with 2307 views | Swansea_Blue |
No surprise. Private school fees have increased substantially over the last c. 15 years and that didn’t affect demand. So a 20% uplifting wasn’t likely to have much of an impact in the main. There’ll no doubt be some parents who get priced out, but then you have to ask could they really afford it in the first place. For the majority it won’t make a jot of difference and there’s no way a 20% increase will stop them keeping up with the Joneses. [Post edited 10 Mar 21:06]
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