| Jon Venables... on 12:36 - Nov 26 with 6753 views | blue_oyster |
| Jon Venables... on 12:24 - Nov 26 by Ryorry |
I don't think there's any disagreement here re him being banged up for the rest of his natural without parole - in the interests of protecting society & himself.
Massive, complex subject re nature/nurture. I think many people may have a seed, or half-seed of evil within them - you've only got to read the studies of what some people will do when instructed to inflict pain, eg https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html or http://www.newsweek.com/new-milgram-experiments-same-results-569103
or look at what big business s-m sex is. The pain/pleasure buttons are pretty closely entwined biologically, from what I read a long time ago on my social work course. For the vast majority it's consenting & not real harm.
However, the way the latent seeds develop I think probably does depend on childrens' environment - some will receive the right 'steer', with good guidance, good education, and good mentors within a stable environment. Others, who get in with 'the wrong crowd' or wrong individuals who aren't inhibited in expressing their predilections, would be more likely to be directed onto the wrong track, sort of like the way points work on railway tracks -
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Extreme cases like this prompt big questions such as you ask. If only we had a well thought out, tried and tested set of non-invasive morals and family values then we might strive to avoid such things happening, instead of raging against these values and slowly destroying them. |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 12:48 - Nov 26 with 6744 views | christiand |
Lowest vermin anyone can imagine. A complete waste of oxygen! |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 16:53 - Nov 26 with 6672 views | gordon |
| Jon Venables... on 12:24 - Nov 26 by Ryorry |
I don't think there's any disagreement here re him being banged up for the rest of his natural without parole - in the interests of protecting society & himself.
Massive, complex subject re nature/nurture. I think many people may have a seed, or half-seed of evil within them - you've only got to read the studies of what some people will do when instructed to inflict pain, eg https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html or http://www.newsweek.com/new-milgram-experiments-same-results-569103
or look at what big business s-m sex is. The pain/pleasure buttons are pretty closely entwined biologically, from what I read a long time ago on my social work course. For the vast majority it's consenting & not real harm.
However, the way the latent seeds develop I think probably does depend on childrens' environment - some will receive the right 'steer', with good guidance, good education, and good mentors within a stable environment. Others, who get in with 'the wrong crowd' or wrong individuals who aren't inhibited in expressing their predilections, would be more likely to be directed onto the wrong track, sort of like the way points work on railway tracks -
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The Milgram experiment (and similar tests) is designed to demonstrate the extent to which humans are obedient to authority, and to show that this obedience can outweigh our compassion for the wellbeing of fellow humans. It was designed to refute the idea that the horrors of the first half of the twentieth century were a result of 'evil' per se, and rather show that ordinary people, from anywhere in the world, were quite capable of taking part in atrocities. |  | | |
| Jon Venables... on 17:02 - Nov 26 with 6664 views | noggin |
| Jon Venables... on 12:48 - Nov 26 by christiand |
Lowest vermin anyone can imagine. A complete waste of oxygen! |
No doubt a product of his own traumatic childhood. Who knows what horrors he witnessed in his own home as a kid. |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 17:18 - Nov 26 with 6640 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Jon Venables... on 17:52 - Nov 25 by jeera |
But either way. In this case it is now irrelevant.
He is still showing an unhealthy interest in children at the age of 35, so cannot be allowed to destroy more lives. |
This.
My thoughts exactly Jeera |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 17:21 - Nov 26 with 6632 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Jon Venables... on 18:11 - Nov 25 by Crawfordsboot |
You think a ten year old child is an “evil kiddie murdering scumbag” - I despair!
At what age do you allocate absolute responsibility to a child- if not 10, then 8, or perhaps 6, can a four year old qualify? |
Sorry mate but he meticulously planned and executed the torturous murder with one of his mates of a 3 year old child.
I've studied his case when I did my A level law and some of the things he did are just utterly vile and twisted. To even come up with what he did as an adult is beyond comprehension but to think of some of these things as a child is depraved. | |
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| Jon Venables... on 17:25 - Nov 26 with 6629 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Jon Venables... on 01:33 - Nov 26 by Lord_Lucan |
The fact that you are being pedantic about this just reinforces my opinion that you are a bit touched. You seem to be arguing that the system let the bloke down. I don’t buy that for a moment and I am shocked that you think it did.
What do you think we could ever have achieved with the lad, I presume you actually know what they did to that poor kid? |
That's the thing for me. It's not like they were playing and then got angry and kicked his head in.
They planned and tortured him over the course of several hours. | |
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| Jon Venables... on 17:28 - Nov 26 with 6625 views | J2BLUE |
| Jon Venables... on 17:02 - Nov 26 by noggin |
No doubt a product of his own traumatic childhood. Who knows what horrors he witnessed in his own home as a kid. |
I agree, we are all products of our childhood years. I could write an essay on major aspects of my personality and pinpoint to them to moments in my childhood but frankly i'm unwilling to be that open.
Nothing bad happened to me directly and yet it has still had a massive influence on the person I have become. 3-4 major themes which have formed the basis of my beliefs that I have lived my life by. For some people, their own beliefs will be positive. For others, very negative. For me, some of my beliefs have given me qualities I truly value where as others have have a terribly negative impact on my view of the world and where I fit in it. |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 17:31 - Nov 26 with 6617 views | noggin |
| Jon Venables... on 17:56 - Nov 25 by Lord_Lucan |
That society failed him. |
It clearly has though. | |
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| Jon Venables... on 17:39 - Nov 26 with 6598 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Jon Venables... on 17:50 - Nov 25 by Crawfordsboot |
Are children born evil, or are they brutalized by their environment?
I think environment. |
This sort of thing (rape and murder for pleasure) is 100% genetic IMO |  | | |
| Jon Venables... on 17:42 - Nov 26 with 6587 views | imsureazzure |
| Jon Venables... on 17:27 - Nov 25 by Crawfordsboot |
Does no one think that the situation reflects badly on how we (our society - so yes we) have treated this individual. As a young child he committed an offence that was horrendous, but of which he can only have had a limited understanding. He has been in our society's rehabilitation system from the age of 10 and clearly it has failed him, and us, miserably.
So spare me the lock him up, throw away the key, hang draw and quarter comments. How about complaining about the sheer inadequacy of our treatment of a ten year old child and our prison/ rehabilitation system. |
Are you saying that a child of 10 has a limited understanding of what is right and wrong?
If so it is claptrap, he is a product of a city, his surroundings and upbringing, a child of ten fully knows the difference between right and wrong.
Society needs to be protected from him, lock him up for the remainder of his life because if not there seems to be a real danger of another offence, what society could explain that? |  | | |
| Jon Venables... on 17:47 - Nov 26 with 6572 views | noggin |
| Jon Venables... on 17:39 - Nov 26 by FrowsyArmLarry |
This sort of thing (rape and murder for pleasure) is 100% genetic IMO |
Can you show us your research or is it just a hunch? | |
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| Jon Venables... on 17:55 - Nov 26 with 6542 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Jon Venables... on 17:47 - Nov 26 by noggin |
Can you show us your research or is it just a hunch? |
Where’s your research? | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 17:56 - Nov 26 with 6535 views | noggin |
| Jon Venables... on 17:55 - Nov 26 by FrowsyArmLarry |
Where’s your research? |
Into what? | |
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| Jon Venables... on 17:59 - Nov 26 with 6520 views | Herbivore |
| Jon Venables... on 17:42 - Nov 26 by imsureazzure |
Are you saying that a child of 10 has a limited understanding of what is right and wrong?
If so it is claptrap, he is a product of a city, his surroundings and upbringing, a child of ten fully knows the difference between right and wrong.
Society needs to be protected from him, lock him up for the remainder of his life because if not there seems to be a real danger of another offence, what society could explain that? |
Are you saying that a 10 year old doesn't have a limited understanding of what's right and wrong? They know enough to know that what they did was wrong of course, but they're not adults in terms of their moral reasoning. Their identities should never have needed protecting as they shouldn't have been tried as adults in the first place, we should never have known who they were to begin with. |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 18:05 - Nov 26 with 6503 views | imsureazzure |
| Jon Venables... on 17:59 - Nov 26 by Herbivore |
Are you saying that a 10 year old doesn't have a limited understanding of what's right and wrong? They know enough to know that what they did was wrong of course, but they're not adults in terms of their moral reasoning. Their identities should never have needed protecting as they shouldn't have been tried as adults in the first place, we should never have known who they were to begin with. |
Certainly agree that the identities should not have been released. | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 18:08 - Nov 26 with 6488 views | jaykay |
| Jon Venables... on 17:21 - Nov 26 by The_Romford_Blue |
Sorry mate but he meticulously planned and executed the torturous murder with one of his mates of a 3 year old child.
I've studied his case when I did my A level law and some of the things he did are just utterly vile and twisted. To even come up with what he did as an adult is beyond comprehension but to think of some of these things as a child is depraved. |
no way i am defending him,but if you say you studied this case,maybe you can fill us in on his home life. |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Jon Venables... on 18:38 - Nov 26 with 6444 views | Ryorry |
| Jon Venables... on 16:53 - Nov 26 by gordon |
The Milgram experiment (and similar tests) is designed to demonstrate the extent to which humans are obedient to authority, and to show that this obedience can outweigh our compassion for the wellbeing of fellow humans. It was designed to refute the idea that the horrors of the first half of the twentieth century were a result of 'evil' per se, and rather show that ordinary people, from anywhere in the world, were quite capable of taking part in atrocities. |
I know. |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 19:01 - Nov 26 with 6413 views | gordon |
| Jon Venables... on 18:38 - Nov 26 by Ryorry |
I know. |
sorry. I probably misunderstood what you'd said about evil. | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 19:03 - Nov 26 with 6399 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Jon Venables... on 17:56 - Nov 26 by noggin |
Into what? |
The psychology of murder and nature / nurture
I say it’s 100% nature as that part is definitely required. | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 19:10 - Nov 26 with 6383 views | gordon |
| Jon Venables... on 19:03 - Nov 26 by FrowsyArmLarry |
The psychology of murder and nature / nurture
I say it’s 100% nature as that part is definitely required. |
There are genetic markers for most behavioural / personality traits, probably including psychopathy / low empathy type personalities, but the relationship between genes and outcomes is usually weak, suggesting that environmental factors are usually more important (eg upbringing etc).
It's basically as Ryorry says in her post above, apart from the bit on S&M, which can be quite a lot of fun and shouldn't be mentioned in this context :) | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 19:11 - Nov 26 with 6382 views | noggin |
| Jon Venables... on 19:03 - Nov 26 by FrowsyArmLarry |
The psychology of murder and nature / nurture
I say it’s 100% nature as that part is definitely required. |
So you don't believe adverse childhood experiences have any influence on the perpetrators of evil acts? | |
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| Jon Venables... on 19:16 - Nov 26 with 6378 views | gordon |
| Jon Venables... on 17:42 - Nov 26 by imsureazzure |
Are you saying that a child of 10 has a limited understanding of what is right and wrong?
If so it is claptrap, he is a product of a city, his surroundings and upbringing, a child of ten fully knows the difference between right and wrong.
Society needs to be protected from him, lock him up for the remainder of his life because if not there seems to be a real danger of another offence, what society could explain that? |
It is not possible to simultaneously argue that:
a) the accused must surely understand the difference between right and wrong because others of his age/background/type do;
and b) the accused is utterly deprived to the extent that he/she has no concept of right or wrong and is a threat to society. | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 19:20 - Nov 26 with 6371 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Jon Venables... on 19:11 - Nov 26 by noggin |
So you don't believe adverse childhood experiences have any influence on the perpetrators of evil acts? |
Possibly, hard to prove though and could have the opposite effect.
What’s really needed is the genetic bit. One beautiful day we will be able to brain scan children and lock them up before they do any harm ;-) | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 19:25 - Nov 26 with 6945 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Jon Venables... on 19:16 - Nov 26 by gordon |
It is not possible to simultaneously argue that:
a) the accused must surely understand the difference between right and wrong because others of his age/background/type do;
and b) the accused is utterly deprived to the extent that he/she has no concept of right or wrong and is a threat to society. |
Point b is just worded wrongly. He means depraved enough to not care about point a | | | |
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