| Jon Venables... on 19:31 - Nov 26 with 7623 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Jon Venables... on 18:08 - Nov 26 by jaykay |
no way i am defending him,but if you say you studied this case,maybe you can fill us in on his home life. |
Quite honestly, I can't remember
That wasn't the side of it I studied in my defence. Though it was looked at as context. But I just don't remember |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 19:32 - Nov 26 with 7620 views | gordon |
| Jon Venables... on 19:25 - Nov 26 by FrowsyArmLarry |
Point b is just worded wrongly. He means depraved enough to not care about point a |
That's effectively the same, though. |  | | |
| Jon Venables... on 19:47 - Nov 26 with 7595 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Jon Venables... on 19:20 - Nov 26 by FrowsyArmLarry |
Possibly, hard to prove though and could have the opposite effect.
What’s really needed is the genetic bit. One beautiful day we will be able to brain scan children and lock them up before they do any harm ;-) |
So on that basis, the two genetically evilest kids the country has seen were born in the same year, the same area, went to the same school and were friends? That is hard to comprehend. [Post edited 26 Nov 2017 19:47]
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| Jon Venables... on 19:52 - Nov 26 with 7585 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Jon Venables... on 19:47 - Nov 26 by tractorboy1978 |
So on that basis, the two genetically evilest kids the country has seen were born in the same year, the same area, went to the same school and were friends? That is hard to comprehend. [Post edited 26 Nov 2017 19:47]
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That’s a good point but didn’t venables actually do all the really horrible stuff?
I see your point though and it’s one hindley was keen to emphasise. I don’t really care for excuses though |  | | |
| Jon Venables... on 19:58 - Nov 26 with 7572 views | J2BLUE |
| Jon Venables... on 19:52 - Nov 26 by FrowsyArmLarry |
That’s a good point but didn’t venables actually do all the really horrible stuff?
I see your point though and it’s one hindley was keen to emphasise. I don’t really care for excuses though |
This is typical of you. Come out with something half baked that you've plucked out of the air and justify it with something daft like 'I don't really care for excuses'.
The gift that keeps on giving. |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 20:00 - Nov 26 with 7567 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Jon Venables... on 19:58 - Nov 26 by J2BLUE |
This is typical of you. Come out with something half baked that you've plucked out of the air and justify it with something daft like 'I don't really care for excuses'.
The gift that keeps on giving. |
You don’t think they both have a screw loose to do what they did?
Edit: besides, the environment being an enabler and the environment being the cause are completely different things. [Post edited 26 Nov 2017 20:03]
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| Jon Venables... on 20:05 - Nov 26 with 7557 views | jeera |
| Jon Venables... on 17:42 - Nov 26 by imsureazzure |
Are you saying that a child of 10 has a limited understanding of what is right and wrong?
If so it is claptrap, he is a product of a city, his surroundings and upbringing, a child of ten fully knows the difference between right and wrong.
Society needs to be protected from him, lock him up for the remainder of his life because if not there seems to be a real danger of another offence, what society could explain that? |
"he is a product of a city, his surroundings and upbringing, a child of ten fully knows the difference between right and wrong. "
But of course to a point that is also contradictory.
There's not much to be argued here if we're all honest. Most, if not all, feel repulsed at the actions he and Thompson committed to that poor child, but to ignore that they were children themselves and all that goes with that, would be disingenuous at best. Dismissing a 10 year old child as 'scum', as some have, is stupid and not really worthy of much comment.
Although the 'were they born bad' is an honest and sincere question I think. Some suggest there is an element in the make-up of all of us and I would argue the same.
Does our background condition us? Of course it does. It would be absurd to suggest otherwise. But which way we swing towards the influence, or away from it, as J2 touched on, is key isn't it? Two or more children can be brought up in the same household, in the same way, by the same parents and turn out with altogether differing values. And of course out of the 2, there was a leader. It could be argued fairly that's not the point, but it is relevant if we want to understand the behaviour.
Of course genetics play a part. Of course: Kids have the same parents, different hair colours, features, taught the same morals, yet so different ways of thinking. Conditioning can only affect so much, as often even then, we rebel.
I am sure there will be studies that reinforce his interest in children as a catch-up process; missing out on many 'normal' years in open society and the natural building up to adult relationships. That would all be part of the jigsaw to understand where someone like that is today. But that is for doctors and the like to work out, and long may it continue for future scientific value.
There's no point in dismissing behaviour, no matter how distasteful and apparently psychopathic, with no effort to understand it. There would be no advances in medicine if that were the default approach.
My main point, obvious though it may seem, is that this is now a man and no longer a child, and sometimes, just sometimes, there just seems to be a fecking screw loose somewhere and no amount of applying psychology, sociological factors etc, will make any damn difference.
And the outcome has to be simply to protect any more from getting hurt. [Post edited 26 Nov 2017 20:47]
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| Jon Venables... on 20:06 - Nov 26 with 7552 views | LeoMuff |
| Jon Venables... on 17:55 - Nov 26 by FrowsyArmLarry |
Where’s your research? |
I think the research indicates it’s a combination of nature and nurture in serial killers, a good percentage have severely traumatic past incidents such as abuse in childhood.
[Post edited 26 Nov 2017 20:36]
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| Jon Venables... on 20:07 - Nov 26 with 7551 views | J2BLUE |
| Jon Venables... on 20:00 - Nov 26 by FrowsyArmLarry |
You don’t think they both have a screw loose to do what they did?
Edit: besides, the environment being an enabler and the environment being the cause are completely different things. [Post edited 26 Nov 2017 20:03]
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I don't believe anyone is born evil.
I don't know much about them. I'm guessing they had an unstable childhood and weren't given enough attention and guidance to steer them away from that direction. I'm not making excuses for them, just saying their circumstances probably played much more of a part than genetics. | |
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| Jon Venables... on 22:57 - Nov 26 with 7456 views | SonOfSpock |
| Jon Venables... on 12:28 - Nov 24 by uefacup81 |
It's a tough one. I agree that perhaps there comes a point where someone of Venables' ilk has to be deprived of their liberty permanently both for his safety, and that of the public at large.
With the circumstances of the case, though, I think there has to be a case for leniency and understanding (perhaps not the most appropriate words, but the best I can come up with for now).
For two boys of age ten to do what Venables and Thompson did has to suggest that there were serious psychological issues at play, be it issues they were born with, or that manifested themselves at a later date perhaps as a result of upbringing.
Whilst there's no condoning their actions, or mitigating the severity of what they did, is it fair and reasonable to 'throw Venables to the baying mob' perhaps solely because of urges, ideas, and beliefs that he has no control over? Regardless of psychiatric reports, I cannot believe that anyone who carries out such actions is 'wired up properly'. |
Whether or not he's wired up correctly is neither here nor there. Justice must be seen to be done. Bulger's parents just need venebles locked up permanently without further release. |  | | |
| Jon Venables... on 23:55 - Nov 26 with 7434 views | Ryorry |
| Jon Venables... on 19:10 - Nov 26 by gordon |
There are genetic markers for most behavioural / personality traits, probably including psychopathy / low empathy type personalities, but the relationship between genes and outcomes is usually weak, suggesting that environmental factors are usually more important (eg upbringing etc).
It's basically as Ryorry says in her post above, apart from the bit on S&M, which can be quite a lot of fun and shouldn't be mentioned in this context :) |
I was pointing out that the pain/pleasure mechanisms in human physiology are closely linked, which I'd have thought quite relevant! I.e. in a few people it can go beyond fun. |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 00:04 - Nov 27 with 7429 views | Ryorry |
| Jon Venables... on 20:05 - Nov 26 by jeera |
"he is a product of a city, his surroundings and upbringing, a child of ten fully knows the difference between right and wrong. "
But of course to a point that is also contradictory.
There's not much to be argued here if we're all honest. Most, if not all, feel repulsed at the actions he and Thompson committed to that poor child, but to ignore that they were children themselves and all that goes with that, would be disingenuous at best. Dismissing a 10 year old child as 'scum', as some have, is stupid and not really worthy of much comment.
Although the 'were they born bad' is an honest and sincere question I think. Some suggest there is an element in the make-up of all of us and I would argue the same.
Does our background condition us? Of course it does. It would be absurd to suggest otherwise. But which way we swing towards the influence, or away from it, as J2 touched on, is key isn't it? Two or more children can be brought up in the same household, in the same way, by the same parents and turn out with altogether differing values. And of course out of the 2, there was a leader. It could be argued fairly that's not the point, but it is relevant if we want to understand the behaviour.
Of course genetics play a part. Of course: Kids have the same parents, different hair colours, features, taught the same morals, yet so different ways of thinking. Conditioning can only affect so much, as often even then, we rebel.
I am sure there will be studies that reinforce his interest in children as a catch-up process; missing out on many 'normal' years in open society and the natural building up to adult relationships. That would all be part of the jigsaw to understand where someone like that is today. But that is for doctors and the like to work out, and long may it continue for future scientific value.
There's no point in dismissing behaviour, no matter how distasteful and apparently psychopathic, with no effort to understand it. There would be no advances in medicine if that were the default approach.
My main point, obvious though it may seem, is that this is now a man and no longer a child, and sometimes, just sometimes, there just seems to be a fecking screw loose somewhere and no amount of applying psychology, sociological factors etc, will make any damn difference.
And the outcome has to be simply to protect any more from getting hurt. [Post edited 26 Nov 2017 20:47]
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"Two or more children can be brought up in the same household, in the same way, by the same parents and turn out with altogether differing values"
Even then they may have slightly differing experiences within the home - one will be younger, one older (unless identical twins of same gender), not to mention the huge potential for different experiences at school etc. Tho I agree with all else you say. | |
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| Jon Venables... on 00:45 - Nov 27 with 7413 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Jon Venables... on 20:07 - Nov 26 by J2BLUE |
I don't believe anyone is born evil.
I don't know much about them. I'm guessing they had an unstable childhood and weren't given enough attention and guidance to steer them away from that direction. I'm not making excuses for them, just saying their circumstances probably played much more of a part than genetics. |
So you don’t believe in free will huh? Everyone is just locked into a path dictated by their surroundings? | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 09:02 - Nov 27 with 7349 views | gordon |
| Jon Venables... on 00:45 - Nov 27 by FrowsyArmLarry |
So you don’t believe in free will huh? Everyone is just locked into a path dictated by their surroundings? |
If you think behaviour can be 100% determined by genetics, you also don't believe in free will. | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 10:24 - Nov 27 with 7323 views | Herbivore |
| Jon Venables... on 09:02 - Nov 27 by gordon |
If you think behaviour can be 100% determined by genetics, you also don't believe in free will. |
Indeed, in fact his picture of things is far more deterministic than the one he's arguing against. |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 10:41 - Nov 27 with 7306 views | J2BLUE |
| Jon Venables... on 00:45 - Nov 27 by FrowsyArmLarry |
So you don’t believe in free will huh? Everyone is just locked into a path dictated by their surroundings? |
Complete rubbish. You're the one claiming people are locked on to a path by genetics. As Jeera said, you can choose how to react to your environment. I'm simply saying environment has the biggest role IMO. These kids were constantly skipping school. Does that not make you wonder if they had anyone to step in and stop the decline in their behaviour? I'm not defending them. Even at 10 years old the pain and suffering of that little boy would have been obvious. I'm simply saying environment and your childhood years has a massive impact. There's even an argument about Hitler hating Jews because a Jewish doctor didn't save his mother. I'm not defending the actions of any of these people, just saying they are shaped by their experiences as I am by my own.
I think the mind is incredibly powerful. More powerful than we understand at the moment. I truly believe experiences as a child shape the mind of the adult. I know exactly what I mean but maybe i'm doing a poor job of explaining it. Perhaps it's easier for me to understand because I can link the major themes which have shaped my adult like to events as a child. The image in my head is of a spider's web. At the centre is the spider, the event that has the biggest impact on all your beliefs. The web is the connection between that moment and every single thought and belief you've had since.
I'd be fascinated if anyone has an links to research into any of this because i'm convinced i'm right. Has anyone seen that programme called My 600 Life? It's where people in America have gained weight to the extent that they are 600 pounds or heavier. In every single programme about 20 minutes into the episode they uncover the reason for their weight gain. They've always turned to food to deal with a situation they didn't know how to deal with any other way, very often when they were too young to understand. The vast majority were abused as children. Others reacted that way to a death of a close relative. I simply don't believe people are pre-programmed to be evil or gain an obscene amount of weight (although genetics obviously plays a part in that example for many people). The problems of virtually all of these people begin to vanish as they get counselling and exorcise their demons. Nothing will convince me that the mind, created through experiences, isn't the greatest influence on who we are. | |
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| Jon Venables... on 10:47 - Nov 27 with 7297 views | SomethingBlue |
| Jon Venables... on 17:21 - Nov 26 by The_Romford_Blue |
Sorry mate but he meticulously planned and executed the torturous murder with one of his mates of a 3 year old child.
I've studied his case when I did my A level law and some of the things he did are just utterly vile and twisted. To even come up with what he did as an adult is beyond comprehension but to think of some of these things as a child is depraved. |
You've got your last sentence the wrong way round. | |
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| Jon Venables... on 12:03 - Nov 27 with 7244 views | Crawfordsboot |
My initial response to the early postings on here was of despair at the blanket and unthinking calls for vengeance with little evidence of rational thought. The discussion has now taken a turn for the better with some very interesting points made. |  | | |
| Jon Venables... on 21:04 - Nov 27 with 7101 views | gordon |
| Jon Venables... on 10:41 - Nov 27 by J2BLUE |
Complete rubbish. You're the one claiming people are locked on to a path by genetics. As Jeera said, you can choose how to react to your environment. I'm simply saying environment has the biggest role IMO. These kids were constantly skipping school. Does that not make you wonder if they had anyone to step in and stop the decline in their behaviour? I'm not defending them. Even at 10 years old the pain and suffering of that little boy would have been obvious. I'm simply saying environment and your childhood years has a massive impact. There's even an argument about Hitler hating Jews because a Jewish doctor didn't save his mother. I'm not defending the actions of any of these people, just saying they are shaped by their experiences as I am by my own.
I think the mind is incredibly powerful. More powerful than we understand at the moment. I truly believe experiences as a child shape the mind of the adult. I know exactly what I mean but maybe i'm doing a poor job of explaining it. Perhaps it's easier for me to understand because I can link the major themes which have shaped my adult like to events as a child. The image in my head is of a spider's web. At the centre is the spider, the event that has the biggest impact on all your beliefs. The web is the connection between that moment and every single thought and belief you've had since.
I'd be fascinated if anyone has an links to research into any of this because i'm convinced i'm right. Has anyone seen that programme called My 600 Life? It's where people in America have gained weight to the extent that they are 600 pounds or heavier. In every single programme about 20 minutes into the episode they uncover the reason for their weight gain. They've always turned to food to deal with a situation they didn't know how to deal with any other way, very often when they were too young to understand. The vast majority were abused as children. Others reacted that way to a death of a close relative. I simply don't believe people are pre-programmed to be evil or gain an obscene amount of weight (although genetics obviously plays a part in that example for many people). The problems of virtually all of these people begin to vanish as they get counselling and exorcise their demons. Nothing will convince me that the mind, created through experiences, isn't the greatest influence on who we are. |
If someone wished to be difficult, they might ask, what exactly constitutes the 'you' in the sentence: 'you can choose how to react to your environment'.
It's quite easy to bypass determinism with the way our language and grammar is structured, because obviously personal responsibility is important to how we live our lives on a day to day basis. But if we examine the language we use more closely when discussing bigger things, it becomes a bit more difficult.
Ultimately, what constitutes 'you' can only be composed of genetic information, and your accumulated experiences. The way you respond to every situation can only be determined by interactions between those two variables. | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 01:10 - Nov 28 with 7028 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Jon Venables... on 09:02 - Nov 27 by gordon |
If you think behaviour can be 100% determined by genetics, you also don't believe in free will. |
Environment has a part to play, but the way your mind interprets it is down to genetics.
BTW there was nothing in the childhood of either of these two which meant they would be nailed on killers | | | |
| Jon Venables... on 09:13 - Nov 28 with 6960 views | noggin |
| Jon Venables... on 01:10 - Nov 28 by FrowsyArmLarry |
Environment has a part to play, but the way your mind interprets it is down to genetics.
BTW there was nothing in the childhood of either of these two which meant they would be nailed on killers |
Has anybody ever be destined to be a "nailed on killer"? You and I have no idea what JV experienced as a child. |  |
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| Jon Venables... on 09:47 - Nov 28 with 6932 views | J2BLUE |
| Jon Venables... on 01:10 - Nov 28 by FrowsyArmLarry |
Environment has a part to play, but the way your mind interprets it is down to genetics.
BTW there was nothing in the childhood of either of these two which meant they would be nailed on killers |
Who said anything about nailed on killers? | |
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