| Theresa defeated.... 19:30 - Dec 13 with 40312 views | ElderGrizzly |
Whoops :)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-majo
Theresa May has lost a Brexit vote in the Commons for the first time.
MPs voted to back the Dominic Grieve amendment by 309 votes to 305 - a majority of four.
The amendment will curb some of the powers the government is giving itself in the EU withdrawal bill. Specifically, it means that although clause 9 of the bill gives ministers powers to implement the Brexit withdrawal agreement by order, the amendment that has been passed means says they can only exercise these powers “subject to the prior enactment of a statute by parliament approving the final terms of withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union.”
Opposition MPs also claim the amendment gives parliament a “meaningful vote” on the withdrawal agreement. This is contested because ministers say parliament is already going to get a meaningful vote. But what it will mean is that ministers will not be able to use the powers in clause 9 to implement the EU withdrawal bill by order until the Commons has passed the bill allowing this. See
Around a dozen Tory MPs rebelled, according to Labour. [Post edited 13 Dec 2017 19:33]
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:00 - Dec 14 with 5521 views | noggin |
| Theresa defeated.... on 05:03 - Dec 14 by powinswitch |
The majority of people who voted opted to leave the EU. That was 17.4 million voters. The majority were not thick racists. Many more than ‘a few’ will be annoyed if they call it off.
The political satirist Johnathan Pie did an excellent piece after Trump won his election - I am sure you have seen it. It holds the left responsible for Clinton’s defeat because of the description of many in the electorate as thick racists or other pejoratives. Simply because they hold a different view. Real political debate has been subsumed by shouting (by all political parties, but it has been particularly mastered by the left leaning).
The left has such an important role to play to ensure that this once great country plays a pivotal role in ensuring tha5 the world is a better place going forward. But it has to listen - really listen. The spat between Gordon Brown and Gillian Duffy, a labour supporter, at the 2010 election was revelatory, and in my opinion proves my point.
The vast majority of the immigrants who have come to this countr6 have been and are awesome. How lucky are we to have had such hard working people come here and contribute. I think people worry because they wonder where it ends, and simply want somebody to be in a position to control numbers. For EU immigration that is not possible. Personally I also have a problem with how our welfare system has developed. That is a welfare system that my widowed mum benefitted from when I was at school in the 70s, so I am extremely grateful and have personal experience of its power.
We have particularly welcomed many immigrants in the last 15 years or so, and have record numbers in employment. But there is a great swathe of generally working class British born, of all colours, who have been left behind. Perhaps because the hard working immigrants are willing to do hard, difficult jobs for meagre pay, while the disaffected pick up their benefit. The benefits system, allied to the uncontrolled immigration has created a massive problem.
I don’t think you’re thick or a racist. But I do think you need to listen to other people’s views and not just think yours is the right one. Oh and McCarthy’s style of football is still awful. Marginally better than last year, but still awful. A lot of people share that view. Are we all thick and ignorant about football too? |
They were obviously not all racist, they were however all ignorant. That is why the whole process should be stopped now. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:07 - Dec 14 with 5501 views | powinswitch |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:00 - Dec 14 by noggin |
They were obviously not all racist, they were however all ignorant. That is why the whole process should be stopped now. |
You will have to explain why they were all ignorant, cos I don’t understand. I must be very simple. |  | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:09 - Dec 14 with 5495 views | noggin |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:07 - Dec 14 by powinswitch |
You will have to explain why they were all ignorant, cos I don’t understand. I must be very simple. |
Ignorant to what brexit actually means. We were ALL ignorant. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:26 - Dec 14 with 5465 views | StokieBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:09 - Dec 14 by noggin |
Ignorant to what brexit actually means. We were ALL ignorant. |
Brexit means Brexit.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:32 - Dec 14 with 5466 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 07:45 - Dec 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Ah. The old “I was only trolling” get out.
That would work if it wasn’t for the fact that in the time you have posted here you have shown nothing but contempt for people who hold a view of the world that is different to your own.
I’m not quite sure what you have done in your life that allows you to have this smug, patronising and superior attitude?
Nobody voted leave or for a trump because a smug prat on the internet called them thick or racist. You are just a very small cog in wheel that has isolated people and driven them in that direction. Their attitudes were formed over a long period of time after trying to raise what they believed were genuine concerns over cheap labour or infrastructure at breaking point.
Rather than engage with these people and attempt to explain the positives of immigration and the contribution immigrants have made, people like you took the lazy option and branded them thick racists. Gordon Brown’s bigotgate is a perfect example. Benters on here is example closer to home. Far easier to call him a thick racist than attempt to debate with him and change his views.
When normal decent people are called racist, and their friends and neighbours are called racist then the word loses its meaning. So when real racists like a Trump or that awful woman from Britain First comes on the scene then people are anaesthetised. Bill and a Betty who they have known all their lives are called thick racists for voting UKIP so Trump, Tommy Robinson or the Britain First woman are no different.
So well done. We live in an age of your own creation. |
Tl,dr. Yawn. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:35 - Dec 14 with 5457 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:00 - Dec 14 by noggin |
They were obviously not all racist, they were however all ignorant. That is why the whole process should be stopped now. |
If you want to be offensive to people and calling them racist doesn't work then call them Ignorant.
You are a pathetic example of what is wrong with a fair number of remainers |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:38 - Dec 14 with 5452 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:35 - Dec 14 by Pinewoodblue |
If you want to be offensive to people and calling them racist doesn't work then call them Ignorant.
You are a pathetic example of what is wrong with a fair number of remainers |
So is it only okay for the likes of Trump, Farage and their supporters to 'tell it like it is' and 'shoot from the hip'? | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:45 - Dec 14 with 5437 views | noggin |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:35 - Dec 14 by Pinewoodblue |
If you want to be offensive to people and calling them racist doesn't work then call them Ignorant.
You are a pathetic example of what is wrong with a fair number of remainers |
So we weren't all ignorant to the facts then? Note, I include the remainers in my statement. [Post edited 14 Dec 2017 8:46]
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:47 - Dec 14 with 5432 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 05:03 - Dec 14 by powinswitch |
The majority of people who voted opted to leave the EU. That was 17.4 million voters. The majority were not thick racists. Many more than ‘a few’ will be annoyed if they call it off.
The political satirist Johnathan Pie did an excellent piece after Trump won his election - I am sure you have seen it. It holds the left responsible for Clinton’s defeat because of the description of many in the electorate as thick racists or other pejoratives. Simply because they hold a different view. Real political debate has been subsumed by shouting (by all political parties, but it has been particularly mastered by the left leaning).
The left has such an important role to play to ensure that this once great country plays a pivotal role in ensuring tha5 the world is a better place going forward. But it has to listen - really listen. The spat between Gordon Brown and Gillian Duffy, a labour supporter, at the 2010 election was revelatory, and in my opinion proves my point.
The vast majority of the immigrants who have come to this countr6 have been and are awesome. How lucky are we to have had such hard working people come here and contribute. I think people worry because they wonder where it ends, and simply want somebody to be in a position to control numbers. For EU immigration that is not possible. Personally I also have a problem with how our welfare system has developed. That is a welfare system that my widowed mum benefitted from when I was at school in the 70s, so I am extremely grateful and have personal experience of its power.
We have particularly welcomed many immigrants in the last 15 years or so, and have record numbers in employment. But there is a great swathe of generally working class British born, of all colours, who have been left behind. Perhaps because the hard working immigrants are willing to do hard, difficult jobs for meagre pay, while the disaffected pick up their benefit. The benefits system, allied to the uncontrolled immigration has created a massive problem.
I don’t think you’re thick or a racist. But I do think you need to listen to other people’s views and not just think yours is the right one. Oh and McCarthy’s style of football is still awful. Marginally better than last year, but still awful. A lot of people share that view. Are we all thick and ignorant about football too? |
Freedom of movement has enabled many businesses to hold down wages. Most people I know who voted leave feel that the way companies can advertise for staff in Eastern Europe and encourage people to move to the UK has kept their own wages down.
These people are not racist, nor are they ignorant as Noggin the Nog seems to believe. Immigration controls are needed but employers need to start paying a living wage instead of knowingly taking advantage of the safety net of state benefits. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:49 - Dec 14 with 5426 views | noggin |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:47 - Dec 14 by Pinewoodblue |
Freedom of movement has enabled many businesses to hold down wages. Most people I know who voted leave feel that the way companies can advertise for staff in Eastern Europe and encourage people to move to the UK has kept their own wages down.
These people are not racist, nor are they ignorant as Noggin the Nog seems to believe. Immigration controls are needed but employers need to start paying a living wage instead of knowingly taking advantage of the safety net of state benefits. |
Is freedom of movement going to be stopped then? | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:51 - Dec 14 with 5418 views | Darth_Koont |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:00 - Dec 14 by noggin |
They were obviously not all racist, they were however all ignorant. That is why the whole process should be stopped now. |
Indeed. There's a logical fallacy at the heart of the poster and Jonathan Pie's argument that these people should be listened to as they parrot populist politicians and their own fake news source ... you can't beat ignorance by encouraging it. You have to expose it and debunk it.
The problem in this world is that too many people ARE listening to too many ignorant people. Take a look at climate change deniers - it's not a different opinion that deserves listening to as "the other side of the debate", it's an extremist position and should be treated on those terms.
Those that voted Leave and can argue their case, fine. Although I'm still to hear anything that makes much sense beyond wishful thinking and excessive faith in our own politicians to make the right choices during the Brexit charade and in future trade negotiations, respect for worker's rights, and generally their management of the economy. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:53 - Dec 14 with 5405 views | factual_blue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 22:59 - Dec 13 by factual_blue |
He is absolutely right. The referendum was indeed just advisory. There is no provision in UK law for anything other than an advisory referendum.
The Article 50 process, according to Lord Kerr who helped draft the clause, is reversible and can be halted.
It would be worth doing just to watch people like farage or reeks-smug explode, hopefully literally. |
The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true (although here’s a respectable one). That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.
In other countries, referendums are often legally binding–for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.
A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.
Otherwise, as the High Court put it on 3 November:
“a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament”.
https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/
http://www.open-britain.co.uk/full_text_of_lord_kerr_s_speech_article_50_the_fac |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:53 - Dec 14 with 5399 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:51 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. There's a logical fallacy at the heart of the poster and Jonathan Pie's argument that these people should be listened to as they parrot populist politicians and their own fake news source ... you can't beat ignorance by encouraging it. You have to expose it and debunk it.
The problem in this world is that too many people ARE listening to too many ignorant people. Take a look at climate change deniers - it's not a different opinion that deserves listening to as "the other side of the debate", it's an extremist position and should be treated on those terms.
Those that voted Leave and can argue their case, fine. Although I'm still to hear anything that makes much sense beyond wishful thinking and excessive faith in our own politicians to make the right choices during the Brexit charade and in future trade negotiations, respect for worker's rights, and generally their management of the economy. |
You need to get behind your country, mate. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:56 - Dec 14 with 5363 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:32 - Dec 14 by Herbivore |
Tl,dr. Yawn. |
That post reinforces my point. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 08:58 - Dec 14 with 5358 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:53 - Dec 14 by factual_blue |
The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true (although here’s a respectable one). That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.
In other countries, referendums are often legally binding–for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.
A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.
Otherwise, as the High Court put it on 3 November:
“a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament”.
https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/
http://www.open-britain.co.uk/full_text_of_lord_kerr_s_speech_article_50_the_fac |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:00 - Dec 14 with 5376 views | DanTheMan |
Facters is pointing out that, legally, if the Government just decided not to do it then it would not be illegal to do so.
Obviously it would be political suicide. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:00 - Dec 14 with 5374 views | Herbivore |
*Facepalm* | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:01 - Dec 14 with 5372 views | Darth_Koont |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:45 - Dec 14 by noggin |
So we weren't all ignorant to the facts then? Note, I include the remainers in my statement. [Post edited 14 Dec 2017 8:46]
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That's fair too. It's far too big and complex an issue for 99% of us to really understand. I was happy to remain because there was no evidence to suggest it would be better, not that there was clear evidence that being in the EU itself is better than any other possible solution.
But you don't change things without the facts at your disposal. We knew that Brexit in the short-term would cost us, but how much and what the cost/benefits would be in the long-term was ignored because there was no answer. Any way you look at it, that's a pretty stupid decision. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:04 - Dec 14 with 5353 views | StokieBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:00 - Dec 14 by Herbivore |
*Facepalm* |
The thing is, GB has a point although you are both looking at it from different angles.
You are right that legally the referendum could be ignored, however he is right that it was pretty categorically stated that the result would be implemented. That was is an implicit agreement.
Unfortunately ambiguity can be latched on by both sides and makes it harder to come to an agreement.
On the article 50 point, our legal representatives have said it can be repealed but what to the EU say? I seem to recall they said once it was triggered that was it and we would need to reapply to get back in (without all the benefits we have now).
SB [Post edited 14 Dec 2017 9:05]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:10 - Dec 14 with 5339 views | noggin |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:01 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont |
That's fair too. It's far too big and complex an issue for 99% of us to really understand. I was happy to remain because there was no evidence to suggest it would be better, not that there was clear evidence that being in the EU itself is better than any other possible solution.
But you don't change things without the facts at your disposal. We knew that Brexit in the short-term would cost us, but how much and what the cost/benefits would be in the long-term was ignored because there was no answer. Any way you look at it, that's a pretty stupid decision. |
Spot on. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:12 - Dec 14 with 5334 views | Archer4721 |
Those loveable Tories.
Sit back and watch them implode.
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:13 - Dec 14 with 5324 views | Darth_Koont |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:00 - Dec 14 by DanTheMan |
Facters is pointing out that, legally, if the Government just decided not to do it then it would not be illegal to do so.
Obviously it would be political suicide. |
Although it would be economic suicide to leave the EU and the single market and customs union.
Where the mandate came from for a hard Brexit, I have no idea. It's almost as if politicians will say and do anything if it suits them and then just tell us that this is what we asked for. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:16 - Dec 14 with 5302 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:00 - Dec 14 by DanTheMan |
Facters is pointing out that, legally, if the Government just decided not to do it then it would not be illegal to do so.
Obviously it would be political suicide. |
I'm not disagreeing. The leaflet highlights that the Prime Minister at the time said that the government would implement the decision of the referendum.
Not legally binding but a betrayal of trust that would bring the entire democratic process in this country down. We may as well have anarchy and revolution. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:27 - Dec 14 with 5286 views | factual_blue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:01 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont |
That's fair too. It's far too big and complex an issue for 99% of us to really understand. I was happy to remain because there was no evidence to suggest it would be better, not that there was clear evidence that being in the EU itself is better than any other possible solution.
But you don't change things without the facts at your disposal. We knew that Brexit in the short-term would cost us, but how much and what the cost/benefits would be in the long-term was ignored because there was no answer. Any way you look at it, that's a pretty stupid decision. |
Or facts were derided as 'project fear'. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 09:38 - Dec 14 with 5267 views | Darth_Koont |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:27 - Dec 14 by factual_blue |
Or facts were derided as 'project fear'. |
Well, yes. That as well.
Odd that those facts/evidence still remain whereas I haven't heard much chest-beating about the new, marvelous trade possibilities in recent months ...
The idea that we would get better trade agreements with other countries and trade blocs than we would as part of the far bigger EU is shockingly silly. Ditto that our trade with the EU would also carry on in the same way as before but on our terms instead. Never mind climate change denial, that's getting into homeopathy and Flat Earth territory. | |
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