| David Davis resigns 07:55 - Jul 9 with 8091 views | Herbivore |
Brexit is an utter shambles, it can't be delivered and certainly not by a weak and divided Tory government. The Brexiters need to actually start getting behind their country and put what is best for it ahead of their own selfish whims and accept that we need to rethink the whole thing and probably need a second referendum to stop this monumental cock up. |  |
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| David Davis resigns on 10:30 - Jul 9 with 2580 views | Bluefish |
| David Davis resigns on 08:13 - Jul 9 by stig4532 |
The will of the people cannot be ignored just because of the gross incompetence of HMG |
If there was a vote for 0% income tax, 3 day working weeks and free beer it would win by a landslide. Not sure the people are always best to decide what is best for the country |  |
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| David Davis resigns on 10:32 - Jul 9 with 2564 views | giant_stow |
| David Davis resigns on 10:27 - Jul 9 by Darth_Koont |
Probably. Although the rebate has always been up for discussion. It's not part of our terms for being an EU member and it has been renegotiated since it first came in. And I know we're talking about billions, but it's still small beer in the wider scheme.
More importantly, even if Brexit is put out of its misery, I think we need to establish what kind of role we want to have within the EU after this — and in the world. We need to grow up, at least politically. |
Keeping that rebate would be important symbolically, even if it's relatively small in terms of overall budget. It would also be an easy concession for them to make, which might help some deal with it.
I think we have a lot to offer the EU - if nothing else, a lesson in not ignoring disquiet, a lesson on the importance of the nation-state and a counter-balance to the Euro. |  |
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| David Davis resigns on 10:33 - Jul 9 with 2556 views | No9 |
| David Davis resigns on 09:28 - Jul 9 by Guthrum |
Not really. After all, MPs are supposed to be representatives of the will of their constituents, not of the interests of their party. Perhaps it might force them to canvass more widely in between elections. |
"MPs are supposed to be representatives of the will of their constituents"
Yes, and this is somethign Mrs May has turned her back on. |  | | |
| David Davis resigns on 10:33 - Jul 9 with 2561 views | WeWereZombies |
| David Davis resigns on 10:02 - Jul 9 by crazyblue68 |
52% wanted it. So it is the will of the people mate. |
37% of the electorate, who are not all of the people. I know arithmetic can be challenging but do please make an effort. |  |
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| David Davis resigns on 10:44 - Jul 9 with 2530 views | Guthrum |
| David Davis resigns on 10:05 - Jul 9 by crazyblue68 |
Its done. We had a referendum. 52% voted to leave. You can keep voting until you get the right result for you. Thats not how democracy works. |
But neither can you stop voting just because you have the "right" answer.
If it worked like that, the 1975 vote would invalidate the 2016 one. |  |
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| David Davis resigns on 10:46 - Jul 9 with 2519 views | StokieBlue |
| David Davis resigns on 10:33 - Jul 9 by WeWereZombies |
37% of the electorate, who are not all of the people. I know arithmetic can be challenging but do please make an effort. |
I really hate this number.
No votes are ever quoted in terms of the electorate who are able to vote, they are always quoted in terms of the actual voters. If you don't vote then you don't get a say and shouldn't be included in the statistics.
It's statistical gymnastics in an attempt to make the numbers look better and stick it to the other side. It detracts from the remain arguments in my opinion as it looks petty.
Regardless of the above, it's gone all silly now, it just needs to be stopped regardless of the moaning from the electorate.
SB [Post edited 9 Jul 2018 10:47]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| David Davis resigns on 10:47 - Jul 9 with 2516 views | Swansea_Blue |
Dominic Raab then.
Edit. Sounds like the perfect replacement:
[Post edited 9 Jul 2018 11:02]
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| David Davis resigns on 10:56 - Jul 9 with 2507 views | Darth_Koont |
It's also telling that the government hasn't been stumped and stymied by the future pros and cons of a life outside the EU. But by the present-day reality of our existing relationship with the EU and how difficult and costly this is to unpick.
Basically, we've had politicians campaigning for leaving something they didn't understand in the first place.
Pinewood is right to talk about the UK facing other bigger problems that are independent of the EU. So the general self-serving attitude and/or incompetence of our politicians and government is surely something we need to sort out first. |  |
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| David Davis resigns on 10:58 - Jul 9 with 2497 views | eireblue |
| David Davis resigns on 10:01 - Jul 9 by crazyblue68 |
You still banging on about a second referendum? Thats not how democracy works. An intelligent guy like yourself knows that. Whatever we voted will stay as it is. God you are boring. We cant change it. Please start to realise that. We have to rely on an inept government to deliver thats the real problem. They are all spineless idiots. Love Maggie or loathe her, l bet she would have got just what she wanted out of this |
Is it really an inept Government.
Or were the civil service and experts correct.
The EU was on overall benefit.
Therefore the act of leaving will have a negative impact, it will be just worse, because of the inept Government. |  | | |
| David Davis resigns on 11:01 - Jul 9 with 2487 views | Pilgrimblue |
The trouble is Herbi that while the Country as a whole vote leave the MPs as a whole didn't. Too many MPs couldn't give a damn about the electorate and with the media behind Remain, it never stood a chance.
Very little point in having second referendum as outcome, even with same result would change nothing. Business wants to keep in the Euro as do MPs and they're in control so fxxx the people.
Going back with tail between our legs is not going to go down very well. We'll be no better off and still under EU control. |  | | |
| David Davis resigns on 11:03 - Jul 9 with 2481 views | Swansea_Blue |
| David Davis resigns on 11:01 - Jul 9 by Pilgrimblue |
The trouble is Herbi that while the Country as a whole vote leave the MPs as a whole didn't. Too many MPs couldn't give a damn about the electorate and with the media behind Remain, it never stood a chance.
Very little point in having second referendum as outcome, even with same result would change nothing. Business wants to keep in the Euro as do MPs and they're in control so fxxx the people.
Going back with tail between our legs is not going to go down very well. We'll be no better off and still under EU control. |
The "country as a whole" didn't vote to leave. We're not in the Euro. Otherwise agree. | |
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| David Davis resigns on 11:06 - Jul 9 with 2477 views | Guthrum |
| David Davis resigns on 09:38 - Jul 9 by StokieBlue |
Why would the EU accept a reversal which means we keep our veto and rebate?
They would be fools to do so.
So the options are :
1) Carry on with the soft-brexit which is worse than actually staying
2) Stay but without the rebate or veto.
What a total shower.
SB |
I disagree. Even with the rebate and veto, it would massively strengthen the EU should the UK decide to remain in. Not just politically, but financially also, preventing even more burden being thrown onto Germany and France. Given what's happening in places like Hungary, any endorsememt of the EU is a bonus.
Yes, having the old troublemaker back might annoy some of the outright federalists, but they are only one element in the EU and have taken several knocks recently. | |
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| David Davis resigns on 11:13 - Jul 9 with 2464 views | StokieBlue |
| David Davis resigns on 11:06 - Jul 9 by Guthrum |
I disagree. Even with the rebate and veto, it would massively strengthen the EU should the UK decide to remain in. Not just politically, but financially also, preventing even more burden being thrown onto Germany and France. Given what's happening in places like Hungary, any endorsememt of the EU is a bonus.
Yes, having the old troublemaker back might annoy some of the outright federalists, but they are only one element in the EU and have taken several knocks recently. |
I think that all depends on how much good will is left within the EU.
Yes, economically and militarily they would be much stronger, however rationality might not be the main driver. They might want to punish us for the colossal waste of time and the fact a large portion of our population don't want to be in the EU with them.
You might well be right, however I don't think we would have the extra elements we had before and why should we.
SB | |
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| David Davis resigns on 11:13 - Jul 9 with 2468 views | WeWereZombies |
| David Davis resigns on 10:46 - Jul 9 by StokieBlue |
I really hate this number.
No votes are ever quoted in terms of the electorate who are able to vote, they are always quoted in terms of the actual voters. If you don't vote then you don't get a say and shouldn't be included in the statistics.
It's statistical gymnastics in an attempt to make the numbers look better and stick it to the other side. It detracts from the remain arguments in my opinion as it looks petty.
Regardless of the above, it's gone all silly now, it just needs to be stopped regardless of the moaning from the electorate.
SB [Post edited 9 Jul 2018 10:47]
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We are a divided state, you cannot ignore that. | |
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| David Davis resigns on 11:16 - Jul 9 with 2466 views | Pilgrimblue |
| David Davis resigns on 11:03 - Jul 9 by Swansea_Blue |
The "country as a whole" didn't vote to leave. We're not in the Euro. Otherwise agree. |
Bit picky! Sorry a majority did which was the point and of course I meant EU.
What I don't get is that EU needs us as it exports twice as must as we do to them so I must assume that the only reason EU is playing hard ball is because they want to penalise us for leaving the Club and of course our contribution is a big factor in the EU budget. | | | |
| David Davis resigns on 11:19 - Jul 9 with 2455 views | Swansea_Blue |
| David Davis resigns on 11:16 - Jul 9 by Pilgrimblue |
Bit picky! Sorry a majority did which was the point and of course I meant EU.
What I don't get is that EU needs us as it exports twice as must as we do to them so I must assume that the only reason EU is playing hard ball is because they want to penalise us for leaving the Club and of course our contribution is a big factor in the EU budget. |
Yes, I'm a pedantic tvvat  | |
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| David Davis resigns on 11:24 - Jul 9 with 2434 views | No9 |
| David Davis resigns on 11:16 - Jul 9 by Pilgrimblue |
Bit picky! Sorry a majority did which was the point and of course I meant EU.
What I don't get is that EU needs us as it exports twice as must as we do to them so I must assume that the only reason EU is playing hard ball is because they want to penalise us for leaving the Club and of course our contribution is a big factor in the EU budget. |
" I don't get is that EU needs us as it exports twice as must as we do to them"
You should look at the import / export details.
The UK imports a lot of materials & componetns to make things, just as one small example, Rolls Royce cars relay on almost everything to come into the UK to build the cars.
The energy industry relies on almost everthing to come from the EU to function.
Etc. etc. etc. | | | |
| David Davis resigns on 11:32 - Jul 9 with 2423 views | Pilgrimblue |
| David Davis resigns on 11:13 - Jul 9 by WeWereZombies |
We are a divided state, you cannot ignore that. |
What you on about! Germany France Italy Spain are just the same but they've not chosen to have referendums.
Cameron was an idiot and only used it to keep in office and then failed to deliver and left May with poisoned chalice. Shame Jezza didn't win last election as he'd make it even worse! | | | |
| David Davis resigns on 11:37 - Jul 9 with 2412 views | No9 |
| David Davis resigns on 11:32 - Jul 9 by Pilgrimblue |
What you on about! Germany France Italy Spain are just the same but they've not chosen to have referendums.
Cameron was an idiot and only used it to keep in office and then failed to deliver and left May with poisoned chalice. Shame Jezza didn't win last election as he'd make it even worse! |
Cameron was an idiot?
You don't think that him allowing Pickles to align the tories with a far right group in the EU had anythign to do with him calling the Referendum?
You don't think the tories now aligning themselves with a far right Swedish group have anything to do with it?
There are many factions to this all tory and all suppoorted by some r.w. media | | | |
| David Davis resigns on 11:37 - Jul 9 with 2418 views | Darth_Koont |
| David Davis resigns on 11:16 - Jul 9 by Pilgrimblue |
Bit picky! Sorry a majority did which was the point and of course I meant EU.
What I don't get is that EU needs us as it exports twice as must as we do to them so I must assume that the only reason EU is playing hard ball is because they want to penalise us for leaving the Club and of course our contribution is a big factor in the EU budget. |
The import/export thing needs to be seen in its rightful context — as a dependence that was always going to put us on the back foot in negotiations.
Yes, the EU export more to us but it's about 15% of their exports. The EU however is almost 50% of our exports. And crucially they also hold the keys to us exporting our financial services which are our largest export.
When you add in how many of our exports (EU and non-EU) which are part of manufacturing and supply chains that need to operate across borders smoothly and without extra tariffs then we're in a pretty shyte position to be dictating terms.
That's why the political posturing about being prepared to settle for a "no-deal Brexit" was nothing short of an offensive lie. [Post edited 9 Jul 2018 11:38]
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| David Davis resigns on 11:38 - Jul 9 with 2414 views | Guthrum |
| David Davis resigns on 11:13 - Jul 9 by StokieBlue |
I think that all depends on how much good will is left within the EU.
Yes, economically and militarily they would be much stronger, however rationality might not be the main driver. They might want to punish us for the colossal waste of time and the fact a large portion of our population don't want to be in the EU with them.
You might well be right, however I don't think we would have the extra elements we had before and why should we.
SB |
The other point is that we haven't actually left the EU yet, thus have not actually given up any of our privileges.
Withdrawing our invocation of Article 50 should restore things to the status quo ante. The only other available mechanism would be to force an exit when the timeline expires, an entirely counterproductive measure if they want to keep the thing together and not look like idiots themselves.
Trying to make us leave then reapply might result in us simply not bothering to do so.
Indeed, it might force some concessions from Brussels to prevent the situation occurring again in a few years. | |
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| David Davis resigns on 11:43 - Jul 9 with 2394 views | No9 |
| David Davis resigns on 11:13 - Jul 9 by StokieBlue |
I think that all depends on how much good will is left within the EU.
Yes, economically and militarily they would be much stronger, however rationality might not be the main driver. They might want to punish us for the colossal waste of time and the fact a large portion of our population don't want to be in the EU with them.
You might well be right, however I don't think we would have the extra elements we had before and why should we.
SB |
I have never experienced any EU persons or organisation wanting to punish the UK. I have experienced a disaste for the abuse of the UK's privelidged position within the EU.
Many believe they will be better off without the UK which they see as a drag anchor.
The UK will punish itself mainly because of governemtn incompetence over the way in which business has been conducted since 2010.
Handing massivce sums of money and very lucrative subsidies / contracts to EU firms was not clever was it? | | | |
| David Davis resigns on 11:46 - Jul 9 with 2390 views | WeWereZombies |
| David Davis resigns on 11:32 - Jul 9 by Pilgrimblue |
What you on about! Germany France Italy Spain are just the same but they've not chosen to have referendums.
Cameron was an idiot and only used it to keep in office and then failed to deliver and left May with poisoned chalice. Shame Jezza didn't win last election as he'd make it even worse! |
You ask what I am on about, and then you tacitly admit I have a point by comparing us with other states, interesting.
For what is worth, I think structurally we have a much more divided society than other Northern European states, our historical strengths from language and commerce disguise this but over time we will pay for ignoring the problem. | |
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| David Davis resigns on 16:00 - Jul 9 with 2319 views | Pilgrimblue |
| David Davis resigns on 11:46 - Jul 9 by WeWereZombies |
You ask what I am on about, and then you tacitly admit I have a point by comparing us with other states, interesting.
For what is worth, I think structurally we have a much more divided society than other Northern European states, our historical strengths from language and commerce disguise this but over time we will pay for ignoring the problem. |
But you didn't!
Not sure we have as it would be difficult to judge who has more divided society. However I agree we are different and that other states are more accepting but think that underneath they maybe just as divided, only nobody has pushed them. | | | |
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