| 2nd referendum 22:49 - Sep 19 with 11140 views | Bluefish |
Is the only possible next step. I would however pander to the morons and their democracy, I would give 2 options again but this time round I would demand that both sides are fully explained 1st. The options would be hard or soft brexit and I'm sat this as a fierce remainer, I would love to have remain as an option and run it again with clear definitions but it would never be accepted.
How can anyone that apparently believes in democracy not want this complete mess resolved by a public vote to clear it up? |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:40 - Sep 20 with 1741 views | giant_stow |
| 2nd referendum on 10:34 - Sep 20 by chicoazul |
If I may luv this is part of the problem with the animal spirits the referendum unleashed. It is very easy for someone to think that you are calling them stupid if they voted for Brexit based on your argument here as you talk about *real* choice, unknowns, being scared. You make it seem like people didnt know what they voted for but did it anyway which may be true but doesnt give Dave in Hull a lot of credit which in turn probably contributes to him hardening his position and doubling down if there is another vote. |
I admit that on here over the last couple years I might have trotted out the stupid line at times and been a bit of a tinker. That was silly, over-emotional and antagonistic.
I'm not having a go at Dave in Hull now - none of us truly knew what we voted for and if a second ref was held today even, we still wouldn't. I'm just asking for a vote based on clarity and if Dave still wants to blame the EU for the failings of our govt after seeing that clarity, fine. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 10:45]
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| 2nd referendum on 10:40 - Sep 20 with 1742 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 10:38 - Sep 20 by StokieBlue |
If it will only reinforce or increase the leave vote then what's the problem?
SB |
A vote to reinforce what we already voted for - what a waste of time and money. |  | | |
| 2nd referendum on 10:41 - Sep 20 with 1739 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 2nd referendum on 10:03 - Sep 20 by chicoazul |
The Tories are pro Brexit. Labour, a more or less Brexit supporting party, are stacking on members at a huge rate who tend to be young and therefore malleable and The Maximum Leader himself is at best ambivalent and at worst utterly hostile to the EU seeing it as he does as a corporatist protectorate preventing him from enacting his industrial policies. The LDs are a totally spent political force. There is nobody on the Remain side who can match Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage for demagoguery and power of argument. Maybe Gordon Brown is the only one who could but he feels to me like damaged goods nowadays tainted as he is with the New Labour associations and therefore Iraq, financial crisis etc
Every one of these threads I read online here Twitter Facebook and elsewhere contain the same arguments about how Leave voters are stupid racist redneck idiots and Remain voters are disinterested metropolitan elitists which only contribute to a hardening of those respective positions. Nobody's minds are changed and the debate is over.
The referendum, and increasingly elections, are single issue votes which people make based on feelings and tribal loyalties rather than cool hard facts which btw are very hard to come by when it comes to the opaque EU. |
I'd agree with a lot of that.
(Although as a minor point, the EU website is chocked full of information - so not as opaque as you make out, considerably less so than our government in my experience. The information is there, but people in the main aren't interested). |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:45 - Sep 20 with 1714 views | King_of_Portman_Rd |
| 2nd referendum on 10:30 - Sep 20 by giant_stow |
They made a choice based on a whole load of unknowns, ifs and maybes - the air is clearing and the *real* choice is being finalised.
Why are you guys so scared of democracy? |
If we were to run a second referendum, wouldn't that be loaded with unknowns, half truths and outright lies all over again? Would we then be calling for a 3rd referendum because we didn't think Team 1 (or Team 2) played by the rules..
It's not like Politics has ever been black & white and based purely on facts and truths, it's always been heavily in the grey area and there is rarely any real clarity and true understanding |  | | |
| 2nd referendum on 10:47 - Sep 20 with 1709 views | StokieBlue |
| 2nd referendum on 10:40 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
A vote to reinforce what we already voted for - what a waste of time and money. |
What YOU think will reinforce what was voted for. You're opinion may differ from the opinion of the general public.
Your posts ring of someone who is very worried about what would happen if there was another vote.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:47 - Sep 20 with 1704 views | TractorWood |
| 2nd referendum on 08:56 - Sep 20 by Bluefish |
This has 3 down votes but I can't see why. I haven't said to rerun the vote I an saying to do the next step in honouring it. I can't see any negatives |
It undermines our democratic system if we have referenda for every decision. Leaving the EU should never have gone to the ballot box as a hard decision as it's an unbelievably complex, mission critical, socio-economic framework.
It should have been used as a steer for our government to gauge public opinion. The conclusion would have been that it's almost exactly divided and offers no clear mandate.
Shambles. |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:47 - Sep 20 with 1702 views | No9 |
Who would formulate the worgin for any 2md referendum?
The 1st one was designed to divide & rule & so far is successful in that objective.
No matter how much the UK is being effected and thing head to decline the leavers still deny this has any bearing on matters.
As comanies make changes to cope with the event there is still very little in the media (Indy & Guardian excepted) to point to what is happening & what is likely to happen.
So far LR/Jag have announced a 3 day week & Mini will close for at least one month next April.
So far Westminster mob admit to a £2bn (min) cost to the taxpayer how mucg can anyone afford to support a brexit which will make matters worse= there isn't time for investment to prevent crash & protect livelihoods |  | | |
| 2nd referendum on 10:51 - Sep 20 with 1697 views | J2BLUE |
| 2nd referendum on 09:53 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
How can anyone that apparently believes in democracy not want this complete mess resolved by a public vote to clear it up?
So you just want to keep voting until you get the result you want, great democracy right there! |
The only reason leave voters are against another vote is because they think they might lose. It's nothing to do with democracy. Anyone honest will admit the campaign was a shambles on both sides. Having another vote over two years later when everything is clearer is democratic. |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:56 - Sep 20 with 1680 views | giant_stow |
| 2nd referendum on 10:45 - Sep 20 by King_of_Portman_Rd |
If we were to run a second referendum, wouldn't that be loaded with unknowns, half truths and outright lies all over again? Would we then be calling for a 3rd referendum because we didn't think Team 1 (or Team 2) played by the rules..
It's not like Politics has ever been black & white and based purely on facts and truths, it's always been heavily in the grey area and there is rarely any real clarity and true understanding |
I guess you're right in one sense: there would still be competing predictions and forecasts as to what each outcome might lead to, but with one crucial difference. That we would at least know if we would be in a customs union, single market, or having some say / no say over EU decisions, how much we would be paying into the EU pot or indeed what the Ireland plan would be.
Last time, none of that was clear and still isn't today. | |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:57 - Sep 20 with 1676 views | Pinewoodblue |
| 2nd referendum on 10:30 - Sep 20 by giant_stow |
They made a choice based on a whole load of unknowns, ifs and maybes - the air is clearing and the *real* choice is being finalised.
Why are you guys so scared of democracy? |
There are serious consequences if we held another referendum . It was unwise to hold the last one especially as it was made clear time and time again that if was a once in lifetime chance. It would be undemocratic to attempt to overturn a democratic vote.
The problem with any election, or referendum, is that they are easy to lose.Brexit won not because of a handful of bigots or racists but because the remain campaigners failed to get the message over, or failed to get their supporters to vote.
For the sake of democracy the referendum CA not be rerun.
Has anyone who wants another vote considered the consequences for the country as a whole. Scottish Nationalists will want another vote on Scottish Independence, the real reason the SNP support a request for another Brexit vote. Republicans in Northern Ireland will no doubt push for an independent vote if Scots get one. Would be easy to see Derry voting for independence but Belfast voting to remain. Opening a fresh can of worms and leading to unrest.
Leave means leave let's make the best of it. |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 11:06 - Sep 20 with 1653 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 10:51 - Sep 20 by J2BLUE |
The only reason leave voters are against another vote is because they think they might lose. It's nothing to do with democracy. Anyone honest will admit the campaign was a shambles on both sides. Having another vote over two years later when everything is clearer is democratic. |
I will admit that Brexit is a process and not a one off event I think things will look very different in say 5years time than what is being postulated now. Still not convinced of the merit of another referendum so soon after the first, what basis would we have to rejoin? everything we have rejected for so long including the Euro? | | | |
| 2nd referendum on 11:06 - Sep 20 with 1648 views | Bluefish |
| 2nd referendum on 10:40 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
A vote to reinforce what we already voted for - what a waste of time and money. |
All you voted for was to leave the eu. Presumably therefore you are not bothered about any other terms or details? We could still pay in and mirror their rules and still trade. Are You sure you aren't bothered? | |
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| 2nd referendum on 11:07 - Sep 20 with 1647 views | J2BLUE |
| 2nd referendum on 11:06 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
I will admit that Brexit is a process and not a one off event I think things will look very different in say 5years time than what is being postulated now. Still not convinced of the merit of another referendum so soon after the first, what basis would we have to rejoin? everything we have rejected for so long including the Euro? |
Rejoin? We're still members. As I said, it would need full details of what remaining would look like. | |
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| 2nd referendum on 11:10 - Sep 20 with 1640 views | No9 |
| 2nd referendum on 10:57 - Sep 20 by Pinewoodblue |
There are serious consequences if we held another referendum . It was unwise to hold the last one especially as it was made clear time and time again that if was a once in lifetime chance. It would be undemocratic to attempt to overturn a democratic vote.
The problem with any election, or referendum, is that they are easy to lose.Brexit won not because of a handful of bigots or racists but because the remain campaigners failed to get the message over, or failed to get their supporters to vote.
For the sake of democracy the referendum CA not be rerun.
Has anyone who wants another vote considered the consequences for the country as a whole. Scottish Nationalists will want another vote on Scottish Independence, the real reason the SNP support a request for another Brexit vote. Republicans in Northern Ireland will no doubt push for an independent vote if Scots get one. Would be easy to see Derry voting for independence but Belfast voting to remain. Opening a fresh can of worms and leading to unrest.
Leave means leave let's make the best of it. |
It is not democratic to ignore the way the Scots voted is it?
It is not democratic for Northern Ireland to vote one way & Westmoinster to then include the DUP in the parliament count?
Now Ireland is being used a a pawn in the tory game of incompetence
None of that is democratic is it? | | | |
| 2nd referendum on 11:11 - Sep 20 with 1642 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 11:07 - Sep 20 by J2BLUE |
Rejoin? We're still members. As I said, it would need full details of what remaining would look like. |
Sorry misunderstood I see you mean remain for 2 years then vote again when the arguing is done? Would we be allowed to have a seat at the top table influence decsions on matters that may affect us and the EU in the event we follow through and leave? Not sure the EU or the U.K. has the stomach for 2 years of uncertainty? | | | |
| 2nd referendum on 11:16 - Sep 20 with 1628 views | giant_stow |
| 2nd referendum on 10:57 - Sep 20 by Pinewoodblue |
There are serious consequences if we held another referendum . It was unwise to hold the last one especially as it was made clear time and time again that if was a once in lifetime chance. It would be undemocratic to attempt to overturn a democratic vote.
The problem with any election, or referendum, is that they are easy to lose.Brexit won not because of a handful of bigots or racists but because the remain campaigners failed to get the message over, or failed to get their supporters to vote.
For the sake of democracy the referendum CA not be rerun.
Has anyone who wants another vote considered the consequences for the country as a whole. Scottish Nationalists will want another vote on Scottish Independence, the real reason the SNP support a request for another Brexit vote. Republicans in Northern Ireland will no doubt push for an independent vote if Scots get one. Would be easy to see Derry voting for independence but Belfast voting to remain. Opening a fresh can of worms and leading to unrest.
Leave means leave let's make the best of it. |
That's all reasonable enough from you, but I don't like threatening noises coming from the leave campaign in general over 'consequences' of holding another vote. Right now, it appears that leave is a minority voice - why should a minority talk of violence and disorder if they don't get their way? Should we bow to everyone who makes such threats?
Re your last para, a hard brexit would have equal potentially disastrous affects on the continuity of the UK. The jocks might want another ref because they're so pro-EU and the Irish republicans might ask why they now have a harder border In their homeland.
None of the major details of brexit were finalised before the vote, so 'Democracy' in this instance is unfinished and unreliable. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 11:19]
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| 2nd referendum on 11:17 - Sep 20 with 1625 views | Pinewoodblue |
| 2nd referendum on 11:10 - Sep 20 by No9 |
It is not democratic to ignore the way the Scots voted is it?
It is not democratic for Northern Ireland to vote one way & Westmoinster to then include the DUP in the parliament count?
Now Ireland is being used a a pawn in the tory game of incompetence
None of that is democratic is it? |
That is a silly response, nearly added unworthy . We all elect our own MP it is up to them who forms a government. Nothing undemocratic here. | |
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| 2nd referendum on 11:17 - Sep 20 with 1622 views | J2BLUE |
| 2nd referendum on 11:11 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
Sorry misunderstood I see you mean remain for 2 years then vote again when the arguing is done? Would we be allowed to have a seat at the top table influence decsions on matters that may affect us and the EU in the event we follow through and leave? Not sure the EU or the U.K. has the stomach for 2 years of uncertainty? |
No I mean a referendum ASAP after the final deal is agreed where we vote on staying as members for good or to accept the deal and leave.
Both sides would need to be fully transparent. The full deal for staying in versus the full deal for leaving. | |
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| 2nd referendum on 11:18 - Sep 20 with 1624 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 10:47 - Sep 20 by StokieBlue |
What YOU think will reinforce what was voted for. You're opinion may differ from the opinion of the general public.
Your posts ring of someone who is very worried about what would happen if there was another vote.
SB |
I’m a democrat if for some bizarre reason the Govt (of whoever) introduced a second referendum and the decsion was to stay then I would accept that which is kinda my point that you would expect me to accept something that many remainers won’t currently accept - the decsion of a referendum that has already taken place asking the same question. Why should I be expected to accept a second vote outcome when others won’t accept the first?
I’m not sure what is worse disgruntled remainers who do not like the result of the referendum or angry leavers who would feel that they have had the result taken from them? It would leave the country in a very difficult place. | | | |
| 2nd referendum on 11:31 - Sep 20 with 1606 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 11:17 - Sep 20 by J2BLUE |
No I mean a referendum ASAP after the final deal is agreed where we vote on staying as members for good or to accept the deal and leave.
Both sides would need to be fully transparent. The full deal for staying in versus the full deal for leaving. |
My only observation is that buys into the narrative that no one voting leave had any idea what they voted for, it runs the risk of rubbishing the contribution and opinions of a whole swathe of people
My view is that the principle to leave has been determined I think you can only reasonably argue to put a case for a vote on the type of leave ie Chequers (or variation) vs WTO terms.
I’m not scared of the outcome of a second referendum for what it is worth I think leave would win again but I simply don’t like the way the case for a second referendum has been articulated by the arch remainers and that’s before you get me to the somewhat undemocratic nature of such a decision.
Just my view and feeling, as I say, I accept that others might not agree. | | | |
| 2nd referendum on 11:31 - Sep 20 with 1602 views | pickles110564 |
| 2nd referendum on 10:47 - Sep 20 by StokieBlue |
What YOU think will reinforce what was voted for. You're opinion may differ from the opinion of the general public.
Your posts ring of someone who is very worried about what would happen if there was another vote.
SB |
And as always your posts cling on to the lightest straw blowing in the wind, always trying to get others believing that they can change the vote. |  | | |
| 2nd referendum on 11:34 - Sep 20 with 1597 views | pickles110564 |
| 2nd referendum on 10:47 - Sep 20 by No9 |
Who would formulate the worgin for any 2md referendum?
The 1st one was designed to divide & rule & so far is successful in that objective.
No matter how much the UK is being effected and thing head to decline the leavers still deny this has any bearing on matters.
As comanies make changes to cope with the event there is still very little in the media (Indy & Guardian excepted) to point to what is happening & what is likely to happen.
So far LR/Jag have announced a 3 day week & Mini will close for at least one month next April.
So far Westminster mob admit to a £2bn (min) cost to the taxpayer how mucg can anyone afford to support a brexit which will make matters worse= there isn't time for investment to prevent crash & protect livelihoods |
So far LR/Jag have announced a 3 day week & Mini will close for at least one month next April.
Where is there major market? I will give you a hint, it is not the EU | | | |
| 2nd referendum on 11:40 - Sep 20 with 1591 views | StokieBlue |
| 2nd referendum on 11:31 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
And as always your posts cling on to the lightest straw blowing in the wind, always trying to get others believing that they can change the vote. |
Lovely post, a really valuable contribution to the thread.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| 2nd referendum on 11:43 - Sep 20 with 1589 views | StokieBlue |
| 2nd referendum on 11:18 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
I’m a democrat if for some bizarre reason the Govt (of whoever) introduced a second referendum and the decsion was to stay then I would accept that which is kinda my point that you would expect me to accept something that many remainers won’t currently accept - the decsion of a referendum that has already taken place asking the same question. Why should I be expected to accept a second vote outcome when others won’t accept the first?
I’m not sure what is worse disgruntled remainers who do not like the result of the referendum or angry leavers who would feel that they have had the result taken from them? It would leave the country in a very difficult place. |
I don't fall into either of your categories. I voted remain and thought the vote should be respected. I've held this position for a long time. However it's clear things have been poorly handled and the vote was based on very little information.
It's not asking the same question. It would be deal vs remain rather than leave vs remain. A subtle but hugely important difference I would say.
SB [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 11:46]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| 2nd referendum on 11:53 - Sep 20 with 1576 views | pickles110564 |
| 2nd referendum on 11:43 - Sep 20 by StokieBlue |
I don't fall into either of your categories. I voted remain and thought the vote should be respected. I've held this position for a long time. However it's clear things have been poorly handled and the vote was based on very little information.
It's not asking the same question. It would be deal vs remain rather than leave vs remain. A subtle but hugely important difference I would say.
SB [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 11:46]
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When will you realise remain is not on the table. It could only be for hard or soft Brexit. | | | |
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