| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May 09:17 - Dec 11 with 6016 views | Guthrum |
But it's worth remembering her task involved organising something which half the country didn't want in the first place and the other half couldn't decide what version they were after, dealing with a multi-headed entity having its own range of agendas and little incentive to make things easy. All the while plagued by brainless "advisors" and rivals more intent upon factional struggle or seizing power for themselves than the national interest.
It would have taken a politician of extraordinary talents to pull that off. May isn't that (neither is Johnson nor, I strongly suspect, Corbyn), but at least she's still fighting. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:19 - Dec 11 with 4778 views | JakeITFC |
Think her biggest problem is that she just kicks issues down the road and hopes that they’ll fix themselves.
There really is no excuse for the government to be in the position they are right now. |  | | |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:22 - Dec 11 with 4777 views | Steve_M |
Yes, it was an incredibly difficult job but most of the country understood that and were prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt. Had she talked from the start about the necessary compromises that Brexit was always going to need then she would have done a far better job. Instead she:
a) alienated half of the country in short-order
b) made contradictory and incompatible promises (her three red lines)
c) has lied constantly and kicked every difficult decision into the future
d) triggered Article 50 without the slightest hint of a plan, let alone a national consensus behind her.
It's hard to see how anyone could have done a worse job over the last two years, although I'm quite sure that Johnson or Corbyn would have a good go at it. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 9:44]
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:28 - Dec 11 with 4736 views | Guthrum |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:19 - Dec 11 by JakeITFC |
Think her biggest problem is that she just kicks issues down the road and hopes that they’ll fix themselves.
There really is no excuse for the government to be in the position they are right now. |
Is there actually any solution to the issues at hand, one which will satisfy more than a minority of people?
If we remain in the EU, it will upset the majority who voted to leave. Whichever way we leave, most people will not like it (given nearly half didn't want to at all and the other Brexiteer factions demand different outcomes). | |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:30 - Dec 11 with 4726 views | Basuco |
It was never going to be just a difficult job, always an impossible job, nearly every MP has their own version of brexit that is the only one that "is in the best interest of the Country." I think Teresa May has done a great job so far, especially after David Cameron knew it would be difficult and did an immediate runner leaving his mess for someone else to sort out. |  | | |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:31 - Dec 11 with 4722 views | Darth_Koont |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:22 - Dec 11 by Steve_M |
Yes, it was an incredibly difficult job but most of the country understood that and were prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt. Had she talked from the start about the necessary compromises that Brexit was always going to need then she would have done a far better job. Instead she:
a) alienated half of the country in short-order
b) made contradictory and incompatible promises (her three red lines)
c) has lied constantly and kicked every difficult decision into the future
d) triggered Article 50 without the slightest hint of a plan, let alone a national consensus behind her.
It's hard to see how anyone could have done a worse job over the last two years, although I'm quite sure that Johnson or Corbyn would have a good go at it. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 9:44]
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Indeed. It was fairly obvious from the start that she was still treating Brexit as a political opportunity for personal and party reasons — when that was what got us into the mess in the first place.
No-one's denying it's not difficult but if you do A to D not to mention E (appointing incompetent and naive Brexiteers like David Davis, Liam Fox and Boris Johnson to key positions in the process), then it shows how seriously you take your responsibility. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:35 - Dec 11 with 4701 views | Guthrum |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:22 - Dec 11 by Steve_M |
Yes, it was an incredibly difficult job but most of the country understood that and were prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt. Had she talked from the start about the necessary compromises that Brexit was always going to need then she would have done a far better job. Instead she:
a) alienated half of the country in short-order
b) made contradictory and incompatible promises (her three red lines)
c) has lied constantly and kicked every difficult decision into the future
d) triggered Article 50 without the slightest hint of a plan, let alone a national consensus behind her.
It's hard to see how anyone could have done a worse job over the last two years, although I'm quite sure that Johnson or Corbyn would have a good go at it. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 9:44]
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For me, it should have been a cross-party affair, this being the kind of issue which required maximum national unity. With somebody else genuinely in day-to-day charge (to leave the PM free for running the country).
But May was not enough of a stateswoman to bring that about. Also didn't help that she picked one of the more useless/flaccid candidates as Minister in charge of the most vital department. | |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:38 - Dec 11 with 4689 views | Fixed_It |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:28 - Dec 11 by Guthrum |
Is there actually any solution to the issues at hand, one which will satisfy more than a minority of people?
If we remain in the EU, it will upset the majority who voted to leave. Whichever way we leave, most people will not like it (given nearly half didn't want to at all and the other Brexiteer factions demand different outcomes). |
We find ourselves in an impossible position. One which could have been avoided had Cameron not been so arrogant in the first place. I almost feel sorry for May. But then I remember what she was like as Home Secretary. Pig-headed and self-serving. She deserves this mess - but most of us don't. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:40 - Dec 11 with 4676 views | Oldsmoker |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:31 - Dec 11 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. It was fairly obvious from the start that she was still treating Brexit as a political opportunity for personal and party reasons — when that was what got us into the mess in the first place.
No-one's denying it's not difficult but if you do A to D not to mention E (appointing incompetent and naive Brexiteers like David Davis, Liam Fox and Boris Johnson to key positions in the process), then it shows how seriously you take your responsibility. |
By appointing Davis, Fox and Johnson she was setting the project up to fail.
Was that her tactics all along - to show the UK electorate that leaving the EU was a bad idea and to scare them into staying?
She did campaign to remain after all. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:44 - Dec 11 with 4657 views | Pinewoodblue |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:22 - Dec 11 by Steve_M |
Yes, it was an incredibly difficult job but most of the country understood that and were prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt. Had she talked from the start about the necessary compromises that Brexit was always going to need then she would have done a far better job. Instead she:
a) alienated half of the country in short-order
b) made contradictory and incompatible promises (her three red lines)
c) has lied constantly and kicked every difficult decision into the future
d) triggered Article 50 without the slightest hint of a plan, let alone a national consensus behind her.
It's hard to see how anyone could have done a worse job over the last two years, although I'm quite sure that Johnson or Corbyn would have a good go at it. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 9:44]
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You missed out her biggest problem. She screwed her chances by calling an unnecessary election coming out of it with her hands tied behind her back.
She in likely to achieve anything from further talks, except some rewording of the future statement of intent which isn't a legal agreement.
She talks of compromise by both sides at every step she weakens her own position and strengthens the resolve of her adversaries.
The thing I dislike most is the timing of these momentus decisions. She was on a walking holiday in Wales when she decided on the election, away from any face to face contact with advisors Almost as if she made yesterday decision ,as bad as the election call, over breakfast. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:46 - Dec 11 with 4643 views | BlueBadger |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:40 - Dec 11 by Oldsmoker |
By appointing Davis, Fox and Johnson she was setting the project up to fail.
Was that her tactics all along - to show the UK electorate that leaving the EU was a bad idea and to scare them into staying?
She did campaign to remain after all. |
Johnson, Fox and Davies, lest we forget, spent a lot of 2016 telling us how easy it was going to be. The only person who set them up for failure was themselves.
Boris, in particular, despite MONTHS, nay years of sniping and complaining STILL doesn't have a workable solution to the New Irish Problem, for example. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 9:47]
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:49 - Dec 11 with 4631 views | Darth_Koont |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:40 - Dec 11 by Oldsmoker |
By appointing Davis, Fox and Johnson she was setting the project up to fail.
Was that her tactics all along - to show the UK electorate that leaving the EU was a bad idea and to scare them into staying?
She did campaign to remain after all. |
No, I think it was just short-sightedness and focusing on her own power, party unity and trying to steal votes from UKIP/Leave-voting Labour. The UK and its interests is at best in 4th place.
Her hard and fast Brexit strategy is "Kick it down the road". And never mind what that does for the pound, trade and industry confidence, our reputation around the world and our future relationship with the EU. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 9:50]
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:50 - Dec 11 with 4635 views | Guthrum |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:44 - Dec 11 by Pinewoodblue |
You missed out her biggest problem. She screwed her chances by calling an unnecessary election coming out of it with her hands tied behind her back.
She in likely to achieve anything from further talks, except some rewording of the future statement of intent which isn't a legal agreement.
She talks of compromise by both sides at every step she weakens her own position and strengthens the resolve of her adversaries.
The thing I dislike most is the timing of these momentus decisions. She was on a walking holiday in Wales when she decided on the election, away from any face to face contact with advisors Almost as if she made yesterday decision ,as bad as the election call, over breakfast. |
I believe it was the advisors who prompted the GE call, naively thinking they could breeze the election with little effort. This despite previous evidence that polling had proven unreliable and that Jeremy Corbyn was pretty good at winning votes.
They then ran the worst possible campaign, with no strong policies and attempting to focus upon May as a personality.
Following the debacle, the advisors ran away. | |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:10 - Dec 11 with 4569 views | Radlett_blue |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:50 - Dec 11 by Guthrum |
I believe it was the advisors who prompted the GE call, naively thinking they could breeze the election with little effort. This despite previous evidence that polling had proven unreliable and that Jeremy Corbyn was pretty good at winning votes.
They then ran the worst possible campaign, with no strong policies and attempting to focus upon May as a personality.
Following the debacle, the advisors ran away. |
Agreed, but good politicians make their own good judgement calls, unlike May and Cameron. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:13 - Dec 11 with 4564 views | Pinewoodblue |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:50 - Dec 11 by Guthrum |
I believe it was the advisors who prompted the GE call, naively thinking they could breeze the election with little effort. This despite previous evidence that polling had proven unreliable and that Jeremy Corbyn was pretty good at winning votes.
They then ran the worst possible campaign, with no strong policies and attempting to focus upon May as a personality.
Following the debacle, the advisors ran away. |
With no clear mandate she should have involved all parties before triggering article 50 and planned from day one for a hard Brexit as a backstop.
Negotiations with the EU were never going to be easy when they insisted wasting months and months on the Irish problem she should have stood her grounds and just told them that provided we reach agreement on the key issues it won't be a problem. | |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:18 - Dec 11 with 4539 views | SaleAway |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:25 - Dec 11 with 4515 views | factual_blue |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:40 - Dec 11 by Oldsmoker |
By appointing Davis, Fox and Johnson she was setting the project up to fail.
Was that her tactics all along - to show the UK electorate that leaving the EU was a bad idea and to scare them into staying?
She did campaign to remain after all. |
They were appointed to appease the libertarian, right-week 'free markets are brilliant' wing of her party, an inevitable consequence of the internal divisions with in the tory party.
Greater love hath no woman, that she lays down her country for her party. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:25 - Dec 11 with 4513 views | EastTownBlue |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:13 - Dec 11 by Pinewoodblue |
With no clear mandate she should have involved all parties before triggering article 50 and planned from day one for a hard Brexit as a backstop.
Negotiations with the EU were never going to be easy when they insisted wasting months and months on the Irish problem she should have stood her grounds and just told them that provided we reach agreement on the key issues it won't be a problem. |
The triggering of Article 50 at the time seemed nothing more than an attempt to keep some of her MPs, the Sun and Dacre happy.
Following that three months were wasted which included an Easter recess straight afterwards, a lengthy general election campaign and a couple of weeks negotiating with the DUP. | | | |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:27 - Dec 11 with 4511 views | TractorWood |
Agree. The enormity of the task in the timescale is absolutely dumbfounding. Switzerland has taken decades to finesse its relationship with the EU and our politicians have to try and fudge something in 3 months having formally agreed very little in the previous 27 months.
Some of the footage from the Commons yesterday was the first time it truly demonstrated the extent to which the economic future of the country is in the hands of probably a dozen people absolutely busking. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:30 - Dec 11 with 4496 views | DanTheMan |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 09:22 - Dec 11 by Steve_M |
Yes, it was an incredibly difficult job but most of the country understood that and were prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt. Had she talked from the start about the necessary compromises that Brexit was always going to need then she would have done a far better job. Instead she:
a) alienated half of the country in short-order
b) made contradictory and incompatible promises (her three red lines)
c) has lied constantly and kicked every difficult decision into the future
d) triggered Article 50 without the slightest hint of a plan, let alone a national consensus behind her.
It's hard to see how anyone could have done a worse job over the last two years, although I'm quite sure that Johnson or Corbyn would have a good go at it. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 9:44]
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d) for me is the most important thing on that list.
If they didn't have a silly hard deadline about when we would leave then these extensions to negotiating could have been worked around and nobody would have to worry about the "no-deal" scenario as they'd have the wiggle room to get things planned properly. Instead, everyone is rushing around trying to get their own version through before our own deadline.
Made a rod for our own back. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:33 - Dec 11 with 4486 views | Steve_M |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:30 - Dec 11 by DanTheMan |
d) for me is the most important thing on that list.
If they didn't have a silly hard deadline about when we would leave then these extensions to negotiating could have been worked around and nobody would have to worry about the "no-deal" scenario as they'd have the wiggle room to get things planned properly. Instead, everyone is rushing around trying to get their own version through before our own deadline.
Made a rod for our own back. |
And that, for me, is the biggest reason May's Withdrawal Agreement is so dreadful. It pushes the deadline back for two years with the UK having far less leverage than now. Now, what is the likelihood of the UK having a sensible position for the future relationship by then?
It is, of course, a far worse deal than the status quo ante but it is a decades long process to set new trading relationships. | |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:36 - Dec 11 with 4482 views | Guthrum |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:30 - Dec 11 by DanTheMan |
d) for me is the most important thing on that list.
If they didn't have a silly hard deadline about when we would leave then these extensions to negotiating could have been worked around and nobody would have to worry about the "no-deal" scenario as they'd have the wiggle room to get things planned properly. Instead, everyone is rushing around trying to get their own version through before our own deadline.
Made a rod for our own back. |
To be fair, the deadline was not our own invention. The EU was not prepared to begin negotiations until Article 50 was triggered. The moment that happened, the deadline was two years away and the clock ticking.
What should have happened was at least some preparation, firming up of position and achieving consensus before pressing the start button. This parliamentary vote ought to have been at the beginning, not the end of the process. | |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:43 - Dec 11 with 4447 views | SWGF |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:36 - Dec 11 by Guthrum |
To be fair, the deadline was not our own invention. The EU was not prepared to begin negotiations until Article 50 was triggered. The moment that happened, the deadline was two years away and the clock ticking.
What should have happened was at least some preparation, firming up of position and achieving consensus before pressing the start button. This parliamentary vote ought to have been at the beginning, not the end of the process. |
Exactly. Before starting the countdown clock, have the hours/days of Parliamentary discussion required to set-out what our bargaining parameters were. Suck it up and get a cross-party group, if you have to, to try and get some sort of consensus before putting yourself under pressure. |  |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:46 - Dec 11 with 4429 views | DanTheMan |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:36 - Dec 11 by Guthrum |
To be fair, the deadline was not our own invention. The EU was not prepared to begin negotiations until Article 50 was triggered. The moment that happened, the deadline was two years away and the clock ticking.
What should have happened was at least some preparation, firming up of position and achieving consensus before pressing the start button. This parliamentary vote ought to have been at the beginning, not the end of the process. |
Agreed, that's what I was trying to get at. We started the process before we really knew precisely what we wanted out of it.
The cross party negotiations should have been a thing too, or at least including the opposition which then would have been easily enough to get it through with rebels. | |
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| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:48 - Dec 11 with 4417 views | bluejake78 |
For once all party's need to work together to secure the best deal for the UK.
We voted to leave the EU and leave we must.
Sniping at May serves Brexit impossible and undermines the best deal for the country.IMO pathetic. |  | | |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 11:14 - Dec 11 with 4357 views | Fixed_It |
| All very well everyone having a go at Theresa May on 10:48 - Dec 11 by bluejake78 |
For once all party's need to work together to secure the best deal for the UK.
We voted to leave the EU and leave we must.
Sniping at May serves Brexit impossible and undermines the best deal for the country.IMO pathetic. |
Of course, this ignores totally what the 'best deal' actually is. | |
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