| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? 05:25 - Jan 24 with 7299 views | wkj |
I am noticing a rise of products flouting their 'health halo' style rollocks lately on a mass of products claiming to be Vegan, a large reason for this is because they're using Palm Oil, in fact almost everything in supermarkets now uses Palm and/or Rapeseed oil in place of butter - cost cutting and the sort.
What is the issue with Palm oil? Well, in case you didn't know, its grown in tropical climates in large amounts leading to the destruction natural habitats for animals, a few endangered species too.
https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/palm-oil-the-hidden-truth-lurking-in-your-ho
https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/illegal-palm-oil-plantations-threaten-prot
Mass arable farming will have an impact on any eco-system, whether you grow corn, potatoes, beets etc. So one could argue is anything grown in bulk considered vegan - the difference with palm oil though is that it is one of the largest sourced arable products in the world and so out-of-sight out-of-mind for people, we fail to realise how much damage it does to wildlife. [Post edited 24 Jan 2019 5:26]
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 07:09 - Jan 24 with 4755 views | homer_123 |
Was having a chat about this the other day that led onto a wider discussing about 'clothing' and what we choose to wear.
Just have a look at the amount of resources we use (and waste) to make clothing, notably wasteful if you are into 'fast fashion' or purchase clothing from the 'cheaper' end of the market. It wasn't about having a dig at what people could afford to buy more about the choices we make about how we choose to spend that money, i.e. do we buy less clothing of a higher quality more ethical sourced and made both in terms of natural resources as well as fairer and more equitable for the people making the clothes etc. [Post edited 24 Jan 2019 7:11]
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 07:23 - Jan 24 with 4738 views | Taricco_vs_Palace_98 |
Glad you mentioned Rapeseed Oil too, in Suffolk we live in about the only remaining area of the civilised world still using Neonicotinoids, apparently 'essential' for the farming of Rape and Sugarbeet, something you can in part thank Therese Coffey for. Study after study has shown that neo-nics have been responsible for the massive collapse of pollinator populations, mainly and crucially honeybees.
Without honeybees farming and food supplies are in big trouble.
...Oh and if you have honey on your toast there's a good chance it's packed full of delicious pesticide residues. |  | | |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:18 - Jan 24 with 4680 views | gordon |
Surely palm oil isn't only a concern to vegans? I'm not vegan cos I eat eggs, but don't eat meat / dairy. Palm oil isn't really an issue for me and lots of actual vegans who wouldn't eat very much processed food.
It probably applies more to the veganuary lot picking up vegan kebab meat at Tesco Metro in Camden or whatever.
But whether you're a vegan or not, you still care about the health of the planet hopefully. |  | | |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:18 - Jan 24 with 4678 views | artsbossbeard |
I'd probably season it properly and add some tabasco for a bit of "bite". |  |
| Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing. | | Poll: | Raining in IP8 - shall I get the washing in? |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:24 - Jan 24 with 4669 views | wkj |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:18 - Jan 24 by gordon |
Surely palm oil isn't only a concern to vegans? I'm not vegan cos I eat eggs, but don't eat meat / dairy. Palm oil isn't really an issue for me and lots of actual vegans who wouldn't eat very much processed food.
It probably applies more to the veganuary lot picking up vegan kebab meat at Tesco Metro in Camden or whatever.
But whether you're a vegan or not, you still care about the health of the planet hopefully. |
This isnt a pop at veganism like some are, it is a pop at food producers using it as part of their 'health halo' - The little things on the box that scream out to people to buy, and sometimes (often) are a sham - Such as low fat on cereals- even though they contain high sugar for example. So I would say products trying to lure vegans in, such as the cookies Ryorry linked yesterday, using Palm/Rapeseed oil instead of butter could very well be an issue for people in pursuit of a vegan diet/life.
Not to discount your point of course, as what you raise is quite valid as a discussion point. | |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:41 - Jan 24 with 4650 views | Meadowlark |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 07:23 - Jan 24 by Taricco_vs_Palace_98 |
Glad you mentioned Rapeseed Oil too, in Suffolk we live in about the only remaining area of the civilised world still using Neonicotinoids, apparently 'essential' for the farming of Rape and Sugarbeet, something you can in part thank Therese Coffey for. Study after study has shown that neo-nics have been responsible for the massive collapse of pollinator populations, mainly and crucially honeybees.
Without honeybees farming and food supplies are in big trouble.
...Oh and if you have honey on your toast there's a good chance it's packed full of delicious pesticide residues. |
Neonicotinoids are banned across the whole EU aren't they? Bayer and Monsanto are protesting the decision but how can they possibly think killing bees can be a good thing...? Surely the health of the planet should come before profits? |  | | |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:42 - Jan 24 with 4644 views | wkj |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:41 - Jan 24 by Meadowlark |
Neonicotinoids are banned across the whole EU aren't they? Bayer and Monsanto are protesting the decision but how can they possibly think killing bees can be a good thing...? Surely the health of the planet should come before profits? |
Monsanto and litigation is a massive rabbit hole - though with their almost infinite resources I think the strategy is to buy to attempt to have it their way rather than the impact on anyone else. | |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 09:16 - Jan 24 with 4605 views | itfcjoe |
If it is purely about saving the planet, then there are many things that are worse than meat to eat and this is probably one depending on the source of the meat.
I think food miles are becoming more obviously important, the travel and transport that certain food undertakes is mad - and far worse for the environment than if people who could shopped local. |  |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 11:32 - Jan 24 with 4528 views | eireblue |
From the Vegan Society web site
“The palm oil and palm timber industries are rife with very bad practices. In the EU, palm oil used in food must now be labelled, but ingredients derived from palm oil in food and non-food products still do not have to be labelled. So it is not possible for consumers to boycott palm products. Instead, ending the abuses of the palm tree (oil and timber) industries requires co-ordinated action by consumers, policymakers, vegans and non-vegans together.” |  | | |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 11:48 - Jan 24 with 4500 views | StokieBlue |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 11:32 - Jan 24 by eireblue |
From the Vegan Society web site
“The palm oil and palm timber industries are rife with very bad practices. In the EU, palm oil used in food must now be labelled, but ingredients derived from palm oil in food and non-food products still do not have to be labelled. So it is not possible for consumers to boycott palm products. Instead, ending the abuses of the palm tree (oil and timber) industries requires co-ordinated action by consumers, policymakers, vegans and non-vegans together.” |
I think that's a very fair view. Having been to Borneo and thus seeing the destruction of habitats that palm oil farming causes a coherent, cross-silo approach to this would be excellent.
I did have another question for you which I heard on a podcast the other week (and this is just a vegan issue):
Given one of the goals of veganism is to reduce the land used by humans for food production (this can obviously also be a goal for non-vegans) what is the vegan position on organic farming? The podcast was making the point that organic farming produces less yield per hectare so ideally everyone who wants to reduce land usage should be against organic farming (a simplification I will admit). By extension to this, what is the view on things like GM rice which greatly increase the yield per hectare thus reducing the land usage even further?
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 11:55 - Jan 24 with 4482 views | Championship |
I really don't understand how humans can be so short sighted, stupid and greedy to keep cutting down forests when we're battling climate change. Surely there is a way around this? I understand people need to make a living but by destroying the planet? Apparently 300 football pitch sized sections of rainforest are cut down every hour. Perhaps i'm underestimating the size of the planet's rainforests but that number brings a rising sense of panic when I think about it. Should we not be planting more trees insteads of clearing massive sections of forest? I buy a few products which use sustainable palm oil. I know that only really means 'we've already cleared the land so no need to clear more' and it's just as bad. |  | | |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 23:00 - Jan 24 with 4338 views | Ryorry |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:24 - Jan 24 by wkj |
This isnt a pop at veganism like some are, it is a pop at food producers using it as part of their 'health halo' - The little things on the box that scream out to people to buy, and sometimes (often) are a sham - Such as low fat on cereals- even though they contain high sugar for example. So I would say products trying to lure vegans in, such as the cookies Ryorry linked yesterday, using Palm/Rapeseed oil instead of butter could very well be an issue for people in pursuit of a vegan diet/life.
Not to discount your point of course, as what you raise is quite valid as a discussion point. |
Just seen this and checked the labels on both this and another variety of Lazy Day biccies that I gobble down regularly (their Free From Ginger Tiffin) - both are certified as using only RSPO* (sustainably produced) Palm Oil.
As far as rapeseed oil is concerned, I absolutely abhor the use of this, and it's now virtually universally a substitute - because cheaper - in products that until quite recently used sunflower oil. However, if you want to actually eat anything at all at all, you have very little choice in avoiding it these days.
* https://rspo.org/certification |  |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 01:56 - Jan 25 with 4299 views | jeera |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:41 - Jan 24 by Meadowlark |
Neonicotinoids are banned across the whole EU aren't they? Bayer and Monsanto are protesting the decision but how can they possibly think killing bees can be a good thing...? Surely the health of the planet should come before profits? |
Not used for rape apparently, but what the hell "various horticultural crops" covers is anyone's guess.
"Currently, their use is banned for oilseed rape, spring cereals and sprays for winter cereals, but they can be used to treat sugar beet, various horticultural crops and as seed treatments for winter cereals." (Published 27 Apr.2018).
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/further-restrictions-on-neonicotinoids-agreed |  |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 03:15 - Jan 25 with 4287 views | eireblue |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 11:48 - Jan 24 by StokieBlue |
I think that's a very fair view. Having been to Borneo and thus seeing the destruction of habitats that palm oil farming causes a coherent, cross-silo approach to this would be excellent.
I did have another question for you which I heard on a podcast the other week (and this is just a vegan issue):
Given one of the goals of veganism is to reduce the land used by humans for food production (this can obviously also be a goal for non-vegans) what is the vegan position on organic farming? The podcast was making the point that organic farming produces less yield per hectare so ideally everyone who wants to reduce land usage should be against organic farming (a simplification I will admit). By extension to this, what is the view on things like GM rice which greatly increase the yield per hectare thus reducing the land usage even further?
SB |
I don’t think of reduced land use as a goal of veganism.
It maybe proposed as a benefit.
Most people seem to be concerned about things like protein.
So, for instance you get more protein per hectare, with less water, from vegetable sources, than animal sources. Depending on the type of animal vs the type of vegetable, the difference is as much as 15 times more useable protein can be devised from vegetables than animals.
I have seen studies that state that organic yield is about 20% less than convential.
So happy for people to give up meat, boost protein yields 15x, and then worry about optimizing vegetable yields if necessary.
However, the wider issue is yes, if there was less agricultural land, then there would be more land for animals, in their natural habitat.
The dramatic change would be reducing meat consumption for humans, and also reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans.
On things like GM rice, I know this sounds facetious, but is phrased purposefully, to emphasize the vegan philosophy, rice doesn’t feel pain.
GM or not GM, is a consumer/health issue. If GM is better for the environment, and is better for all the mammals that eat it, and isn’t used to exploit farmers in some way, and clear labeling is used, then sure, GM or not GM is not a big issue. | | | |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 04:08 - Jan 25 with 4270 views | rapier |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 03:15 - Jan 25 by eireblue |
I don’t think of reduced land use as a goal of veganism.
It maybe proposed as a benefit.
Most people seem to be concerned about things like protein.
So, for instance you get more protein per hectare, with less water, from vegetable sources, than animal sources. Depending on the type of animal vs the type of vegetable, the difference is as much as 15 times more useable protein can be devised from vegetables than animals.
I have seen studies that state that organic yield is about 20% less than convential.
So happy for people to give up meat, boost protein yields 15x, and then worry about optimizing vegetable yields if necessary.
However, the wider issue is yes, if there was less agricultural land, then there would be more land for animals, in their natural habitat.
The dramatic change would be reducing meat consumption for humans, and also reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans.
On things like GM rice, I know this sounds facetious, but is phrased purposefully, to emphasize the vegan philosophy, rice doesn’t feel pain.
GM or not GM, is a consumer/health issue. If GM is better for the environment, and is better for all the mammals that eat it, and isn’t used to exploit farmers in some way, and clear labeling is used, then sure, GM or not GM is not a big issue. |
Wanted to write something better but meh,
"On things like GM rice, I know this sounds facetious, but is phrased purposefully, to emphasize* the vegan philosophy, rice doesn’t feel pain. "
- If it grows it feels pain
"Most people seem to be concerned about things like protein"
- No, think of the jobs that would be lost if we didn't process animals for food
"The dramatic change would be reducing meat consumption for humans, and also reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans.
- But you want to end consumption of meat....
"reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans"
- You want to build houses on this land, to fix the housing problem in the UK? good luck.... also destroying the habitats of countless hedgerow animals
I don't beleive it's selfish, To eat defenceless shellfish....
So GTFO not on my watch, mines a Ribeye! [Post edited 25 Jan 2019 4:20]
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 07:37 - Jan 25 with 4199 views | StokieBlue |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 03:15 - Jan 25 by eireblue |
I don’t think of reduced land use as a goal of veganism.
It maybe proposed as a benefit.
Most people seem to be concerned about things like protein.
So, for instance you get more protein per hectare, with less water, from vegetable sources, than animal sources. Depending on the type of animal vs the type of vegetable, the difference is as much as 15 times more useable protein can be devised from vegetables than animals.
I have seen studies that state that organic yield is about 20% less than convential.
So happy for people to give up meat, boost protein yields 15x, and then worry about optimizing vegetable yields if necessary.
However, the wider issue is yes, if there was less agricultural land, then there would be more land for animals, in their natural habitat.
The dramatic change would be reducing meat consumption for humans, and also reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans.
On things like GM rice, I know this sounds facetious, but is phrased purposefully, to emphasize the vegan philosophy, rice doesn’t feel pain.
GM or not GM, is a consumer/health issue. If GM is better for the environment, and is better for all the mammals that eat it, and isn’t used to exploit farmers in some way, and clear labeling is used, then sure, GM or not GM is not a big issue. |
Thanks.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:20 - Jan 25 with 4167 views | Herbivore |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 04:08 - Jan 25 by rapier |
Wanted to write something better but meh,
"On things like GM rice, I know this sounds facetious, but is phrased purposefully, to emphasize* the vegan philosophy, rice doesn’t feel pain. "
- If it grows it feels pain
"Most people seem to be concerned about things like protein"
- No, think of the jobs that would be lost if we didn't process animals for food
"The dramatic change would be reducing meat consumption for humans, and also reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans.
- But you want to end consumption of meat....
"reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans"
- You want to build houses on this land, to fix the housing problem in the UK? good luck.... also destroying the habitats of countless hedgerow animals
I don't beleive it's selfish, To eat defenceless shellfish....
So GTFO not on my watch, mines a Ribeye! [Post edited 25 Jan 2019 4:20]
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You should've bothered to write something better, friend. |  |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:27 - Jan 25 with 4150 views | mo_itfc |
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vegan
Definition of vegan
: a strict vegetarian who consumes no food (such as meat, eggs, or dairy products) that comes from animals
also : one who abstains from using animal products (such as leather)
For a vegan, palm oil isn't something to question.
However, for a human, is it something you really want to use? be part of that problem? |  |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:35 - Jan 25 with 4139 views | wkj |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:27 - Jan 25 by mo_itfc |
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vegan
Definition of vegan
: a strict vegetarian who consumes no food (such as meat, eggs, or dairy products) that comes from animals
also : one who abstains from using animal products (such as leather)
For a vegan, palm oil isn't something to question.
However, for a human, is it something you really want to use? be part of that problem? |
The thing of it all is Veganism has gone beyond the dictionary definition in a lot of ways. Environmental significant concern exists among people I've talked to on the subject before- and there it does seem there is a conscious effort them to not only look at the food/product in question, but also the effect those products have on the surroundings.
Whilst the QI segment on avocados not being vegan was seen as a huge clutch of straws, it does ask a valid question if vegans are concerned with mass produced ingredients by those manufacturers trying to peddle their wares with "Vegan Approved" as part of the health-halo on packaging. [Post edited 25 Jan 2019 8:37]
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:39 - Jan 25 with 4131 views | mo_itfc |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 04:08 - Jan 25 by rapier |
Wanted to write something better but meh,
"On things like GM rice, I know this sounds facetious, but is phrased purposefully, to emphasize* the vegan philosophy, rice doesn’t feel pain. "
- If it grows it feels pain
"Most people seem to be concerned about things like protein"
- No, think of the jobs that would be lost if we didn't process animals for food
"The dramatic change would be reducing meat consumption for humans, and also reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans.
- But you want to end consumption of meat....
"reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans"
- You want to build houses on this land, to fix the housing problem in the UK? good luck.... also destroying the habitats of countless hedgerow animals
I don't beleive it's selfish, To eat defenceless shellfish....
So GTFO not on my watch, mines a Ribeye! [Post edited 25 Jan 2019 4:20]
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Wanted to write something better but meh,
"On things like GM rice, I know this sounds facetious, but is phrased purposefully, to emphasize* the vegan philosophy, rice doesn’t feel pain. "
- If it grows it feels pain
---- not a lot of proof on this, as what is the definition of pain your using?? a plant cannot feel pain like a mammal feels pain??
"Most people seem to be concerned about things like protein"
- No, think of the jobs that would be lost if we didn't process animals for food
---- jobs come and go in every industry... animal farmers will adapt... like everyone else!
"The dramatic change would be reducing meat consumption for humans, and also reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans.
- But you want to end consumption of meat....
---- have a look around the internet, there are a lot of articles which will show you how much food is grown to feed to food... with the rapidly increaing population, food shortages are going to become an issue... why would you use food to feed food, when you can use food to feed the starving?? Food shortages will hit the 3rd world first, so depending on what kind of person you are, do you care??
"reducing the amount of land used to grow vegetables to feed animals, to feed humans"
- You want to build houses on this land, to fix the housing problem in the UK? good luck.... also destroying the habitats of countless hedgerow animals
---- the land shouldstay as farm land, but feed humans instead of animals... not be used for housing... the housing crisis is agnostic of this arguement... it affects all farming, not sure farming which affects steak production...
I don't beleive it's selfish, To eat defenceless shellfish....
So GTFO not on my watch, mines a Ribeye!
----
This is a very difficult arguement to have, I've found that telling people I don't eat meat will always trigger a repsonse similar to the one above.
Looking into this more, this is a general response that someone will have when they think they could be wrong... overly defensive and a bit on the offense.
It's just impossble to argue with someone who's view points feel threatened, they will become more and more defensive. | |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:45 - Jan 25 with 4113 views | mo_itfc |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:35 - Jan 25 by wkj |
The thing of it all is Veganism has gone beyond the dictionary definition in a lot of ways. Environmental significant concern exists among people I've talked to on the subject before- and there it does seem there is a conscious effort them to not only look at the food/product in question, but also the effect those products have on the surroundings.
Whilst the QI segment on avocados not being vegan was seen as a huge clutch of straws, it does ask a valid question if vegans are concerned with mass produced ingredients by those manufacturers trying to peddle their wares with "Vegan Approved" as part of the health-halo on packaging. [Post edited 25 Jan 2019 8:37]
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"The thing of it all is Veganism has gone beyond the dictionary definition in a lot of ways. " - I like your point here!
People who go down the path of "doing better", vegan, veggie, peskitarian, will be able to empathise and care about issues greater than just food... I know I do! and I know a lot of my friends do.
I don't like this whole avocado debate, I just don't like avocados! I wouldn't eat one no matter how it was sourced! | |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:53 - Jan 25 with 4098 views | wkj |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:45 - Jan 25 by mo_itfc |
"The thing of it all is Veganism has gone beyond the dictionary definition in a lot of ways. " - I like your point here!
People who go down the path of "doing better", vegan, veggie, peskitarian, will be able to empathise and care about issues greater than just food... I know I do! and I know a lot of my friends do.
I don't like this whole avocado debate, I just don't like avocados! I wouldn't eat one no matter how it was sourced! |
While I am not vegan, I certainly have learnt a lot from a select few discussion on TWTD (not the ones where someone is trying to make others feel guilty or bad, but the rare ones where sensible debate happens).
As a result I certainly have reduced my own intake of meat, granted to some of the more diehards the vegan community that is highly unacceptable, but I feel more responsible if nothing else.
I do enjoy some of the debates we have on here on the subject, that is to say when it isn't shame-slinging and brow beating either side. Though to circle back around, I feel this matter should be a consideration for all - I have long protested the use of 'health-halo' marketing scum-baggery, and noticed in the last couple of years they're trying to thrown gluten-free and vagan on the health halos too. | |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 09:02 - Jan 25 with 4081 views | Herbivore |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 08:35 - Jan 25 by wkj |
The thing of it all is Veganism has gone beyond the dictionary definition in a lot of ways. Environmental significant concern exists among people I've talked to on the subject before- and there it does seem there is a conscious effort them to not only look at the food/product in question, but also the effect those products have on the surroundings.
Whilst the QI segment on avocados not being vegan was seen as a huge clutch of straws, it does ask a valid question if vegans are concerned with mass produced ingredients by those manufacturers trying to peddle their wares with "Vegan Approved" as part of the health-halo on packaging. [Post edited 25 Jan 2019 8:37]
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Veganism hasn't really changed, what's changed is more people are becoming vegan for environmental reasons. For me as a vegan it's not primarily about the environment but that's not to say I don't care about the environment either. The question shouldn't really be are vegans okay with palm oil, it should be are humans okay with palm oil. | |
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| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 09:17 - Jan 25 with 4059 views | wkj |
| Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans? on 09:02 - Jan 25 by Herbivore |
Veganism hasn't really changed, what's changed is more people are becoming vegan for environmental reasons. For me as a vegan it's not primarily about the environment but that's not to say I don't care about the environment either. The question shouldn't really be are vegans okay with palm oil, it should be are humans okay with palm oil. |
As previously stated, my main question is based around the 'health-halo' marketing, and seeing the rise of companies putting vegan friendly on these halos is very much a change in veganism and the attitudes toward it, as it has become a marketing vessel.
You're not wrong to raise the point of "Are humans ok with palm oil" but in the context of my OP
Should Palm Oil be okay with Vegans stands, when in relation to the marketing of products toward vegans. [Post edited 25 Jan 2019 9:18]
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