| Independent Group 15:26 - Feb 18 with 40374 views | ZedRodgers |
What do we know so far?
1. They won't stand a by-election and will abandon their constituencies for more 'winable' seats at the next election.
2. They won't reveal anything about their funding and have set themselves up as a private company to avoid publicly declaring anything.
3. Their website is sh1te.
4. They've said what they're against but nobody can name a single policy they are for.
5. They've been endorsed by Katie Hopkins and Pickles.
6. Angela Smith was only 5 mins into BBC Politics appearance today talking about leaving due to racism before she described non-white people as having a funny tinge.
Integrity indeed. I'm delighted that the politically homeless are now able to come in from the cold. |  |
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| Independent Group on 11:23 - Feb 21 with 3105 views | StokieBlue |
| Independent Group on 11:00 - Feb 21 by ZedRodgers |
I get that you're hoping they will speak for you, but how do people know they're supporting your views if they won't say what their views are? If they are a group that oppose the government, but don't want a general election, what's the point in them? The Brexit clock is on the 11th hour and you're saying them swanning about Westminster in a member-less, policy-less, un-democratic neo-liberal wet dream is absolutely fine.
I don't have a problem understanding that people have different views to me and I know some of my opinions are unpopular. I would like to know what those views are though.
Saying you agree with their stance but that they should be given time to formulate their stance seems a huge contradiction to me. |
"The Brexit clock is on the 11th hour and you're saying them swanning about Westminster in a member-less, policy-less, un-democratic neo-liberal wet dream is absolutely fine. "
What difference does it make? They are likely still going to vote the same way they would have anyway so I don't see what your problem is past it annoying you that some of them had the temerity to leave Labour. Is no policy worse than a totally unworkable policy such as remaining in the single market and customs union whilst not having free movement?
"I don't have a problem understanding that people have different views to me and I know some of my opinions are unpopular. I would like to know what those views are though."
People have been over what they don't like in the Labour manifesto many times. We have even done it. Why do you want people to repeat themselves?
"Saying you agree with their stance but that they should be given time to formulate their stance seems a huge contradiction to me."
I've not said I agree. I've said there is a chance they will have views which I agree with but lets give them time to formulate them. It's not contradictory at all.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Independent Group on 11:24 - Feb 21 with 3098 views | StokieBlue |
| Independent Group on 11:11 - Feb 21 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I don't know if that is sarcasm or an observation of fact from the ramblings of a left leaning, @narcho syndicalist Leave voter.
I have wondered why you avoid those thresds and presumed that it was because you see the nuances in the arguments but couldn't bring yourself to point it out to people attempting to bash Corbyn with that particular stick. |
I avoid those threads because I don't have the knowledge of anti-semetism or the understanding of the various definitions to contribute in any way that other forum members might find useful.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Independent Group on 11:27 - Feb 21 with 3089 views | footers |
| Independent Group on 11:24 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
I avoid those threads because I don't have the knowledge of anti-semetism or the understanding of the various definitions to contribute in any way that other forum members might find useful.
SB |
Oh, don't worry about that. There are many useless contributions- the more the merrier!
But thankfully we seem to have reached reached 'peak-a***********m' now so should all be put to bed. |  |
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| Independent Group on 11:33 - Feb 21 with 3068 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Independent Group on 11:27 - Feb 21 by footers |
Oh, don't worry about that. There are many useless contributions- the more the merrier!
But thankfully we seem to have reached reached 'peak-a***********m' now so should all be put to bed. |
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| Independent Group on 11:35 - Feb 21 with 3060 views | footers |
Oooh you little tinker! I thought you were emotionally drained by the subject or summat? Either way, you won't hear another peep out of me on the subject- we all know each other's views by now. | |
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| Independent Group on 11:40 - Feb 21 with 3049 views | No9 |
| Independent Group on 11:23 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
"The Brexit clock is on the 11th hour and you're saying them swanning about Westminster in a member-less, policy-less, un-democratic neo-liberal wet dream is absolutely fine. "
What difference does it make? They are likely still going to vote the same way they would have anyway so I don't see what your problem is past it annoying you that some of them had the temerity to leave Labour. Is no policy worse than a totally unworkable policy such as remaining in the single market and customs union whilst not having free movement?
"I don't have a problem understanding that people have different views to me and I know some of my opinions are unpopular. I would like to know what those views are though."
People have been over what they don't like in the Labour manifesto many times. We have even done it. Why do you want people to repeat themselves?
"Saying you agree with their stance but that they should be given time to formulate their stance seems a huge contradiction to me."
I've not said I agree. I've said there is a chance they will have views which I agree with but lets give them time to formulate them. It's not contradictory at all.
SB |
What difference does in make?
Well it has confirmed what many of us have thought was the case = the ERG is running the show -with the DUP.
Eerything else pales into insignificance doesn't it?
If Mrs May doesn't deal with the ERG group by getting her more moderate MP's behind her we will go wherevver they wish. Mrs May is ignoring ALL other parties as being a pain in the arse because it interferes with what she is being told to do.
The one policy the 'Independents' seem to have is to stop the UK leaving the EU under the terms the ERG want- what is so bad about that, unless your viewpoint is the same as that of the ERG ? |  | | |
| Independent Group on 11:44 - Feb 21 with 3036 views | itfcjoe |
| Independent Group on 11:00 - Feb 21 by ZedRodgers |
I get that you're hoping they will speak for you, but how do people know they're supporting your views if they won't say what their views are? If they are a group that oppose the government, but don't want a general election, what's the point in them? The Brexit clock is on the 11th hour and you're saying them swanning about Westminster in a member-less, policy-less, un-democratic neo-liberal wet dream is absolutely fine.
I don't have a problem understanding that people have different views to me and I know some of my opinions are unpopular. I would like to know what those views are though.
Saying you agree with their stance but that they should be given time to formulate their stance seems a huge contradiction to me. |
It’s fairly clear what some members of these parties will stand for if you look at their histories.
I’m personally much more aligned with One Natuon conservatives and the Blairites than with the ERG or Mimentum and what they stand for.
I don’t really need a full manifesto to see that I’ve more political beliefs that align with this lot. |  |
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| Independent Group on 11:49 - Feb 21 with 3020 views | StokieBlue |
| Independent Group on 11:40 - Feb 21 by No9 |
What difference does in make?
Well it has confirmed what many of us have thought was the case = the ERG is running the show -with the DUP.
Eerything else pales into insignificance doesn't it?
If Mrs May doesn't deal with the ERG group by getting her more moderate MP's behind her we will go wherevver they wish. Mrs May is ignoring ALL other parties as being a pain in the arse because it interferes with what she is being told to do.
The one policy the 'Independents' seem to have is to stop the UK leaving the EU under the terms the ERG want- what is so bad about that, unless your viewpoint is the same as that of the ERG ? |
I'm really sorry but I have no idea how your post relates to anything in mine. It starts off about one thing, ends on another and ultimately doesn't disagree with mine.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Independent Group on 12:08 - Feb 21 with 2982 views | ZedRodgers |
| Independent Group on 11:44 - Feb 21 by itfcjoe |
It’s fairly clear what some members of these parties will stand for if you look at their histories.
I’m personally much more aligned with One Natuon conservatives and the Blairites than with the ERG or Mimentum and what they stand for.
I don’t really need a full manifesto to see that I’ve more political beliefs that align with this lot. |
If it was that clear, you would say what beliefs they have that align with yours.
I've tried to ask you a couple of times recently but you won't say. | |
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| Independent Group on 12:13 - Feb 21 with 2971 views | itfcjoe |
| Independent Group on 12:08 - Feb 21 by ZedRodgers |
If it was that clear, you would say what beliefs they have that align with yours.
I've tried to ask you a couple of times recently but you won't say. |
The main one at the moment is their view on Brexit.
But I explained last time and you tried to tell me how the Labour manifesto agreed with these views - no need to go through that charade again | |
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| Independent Group on 12:31 - Feb 21 with 2940 views | ZedRodgers |
| Independent Group on 12:13 - Feb 21 by itfcjoe |
The main one at the moment is their view on Brexit.
But I explained last time and you tried to tell me how the Labour manifesto agreed with these views - no need to go through that charade again |
What is their view on Brexit?
Tell people they were wrong? Have a 2nd referendum? Running out of time for the latter surely.
If you're "looking at their histories" then what does a third of the group's MPs voting against the amendment that would have made a 2nd ref possible mean? | |
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| Independent Group on 12:34 - Feb 21 with 2934 views | footers |
Important point here from Toynbee:
"Without PR, voters are forced to hold their noses and vote against their most hated of the two old blocs. That breeds political cynicism and kills enthusiasm. The Independent Group, bouncing with optimism, may break all the old certainties: more likely the old certainties of first past the post will break them." | |
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| Independent Group on 12:37 - Feb 21 with 2931 views | ZedRodgers |
| Independent Group on 11:23 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
"The Brexit clock is on the 11th hour and you're saying them swanning about Westminster in a member-less, policy-less, un-democratic neo-liberal wet dream is absolutely fine. "
What difference does it make? They are likely still going to vote the same way they would have anyway so I don't see what your problem is past it annoying you that some of them had the temerity to leave Labour. Is no policy worse than a totally unworkable policy such as remaining in the single market and customs union whilst not having free movement?
"I don't have a problem understanding that people have different views to me and I know some of my opinions are unpopular. I would like to know what those views are though."
People have been over what they don't like in the Labour manifesto many times. We have even done it. Why do you want people to repeat themselves?
"Saying you agree with their stance but that they should be given time to formulate their stance seems a huge contradiction to me."
I've not said I agree. I've said there is a chance they will have views which I agree with but lets give them time to formulate them. It's not contradictory at all.
SB |
I take issue with them setting out that they would avoid a general election at all costs, even when staring down the barrel of a no deal Brexit in a few weeks time. How can their claims to oppose the government's position be taken seriously in this respect?
You said "I think there will be many people who are happy to have some more centralist MPs supporting their views" - Not exactly saying there's a chance you'll agree with them whenever they decide to say what those views are, but thanks for the clarification.
I still don't understand which views or beliefs you think this has opened a door for. You keep telling me there are some but all I can make out is a vague opposition to the Labour manifesto. What do you want? | |
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| Independent Group on 12:43 - Feb 21 with 2913 views | itfcjoe |
| Independent Group on 12:31 - Feb 21 by ZedRodgers |
What is their view on Brexit?
Tell people they were wrong? Have a 2nd referendum? Running out of time for the latter surely.
If you're "looking at their histories" then what does a third of the group's MPs voting against the amendment that would have made a 2nd ref possible mean? |
You know how this all works, MPs get whipped into voting against their own views. | |
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| Independent Group on 12:43 - Feb 21 with 2913 views | sparks |
| Independent Group on 12:37 - Feb 21 by ZedRodgers |
I take issue with them setting out that they would avoid a general election at all costs, even when staring down the barrel of a no deal Brexit in a few weeks time. How can their claims to oppose the government's position be taken seriously in this respect?
You said "I think there will be many people who are happy to have some more centralist MPs supporting their views" - Not exactly saying there's a chance you'll agree with them whenever they decide to say what those views are, but thanks for the clarification.
I still don't understand which views or beliefs you think this has opened a door for. You keep telling me there are some but all I can make out is a vague opposition to the Labour manifesto. What do you want? |
Because the "we need a GE" argument, is entirely born of JCs self interest and doesnt actually address the issues. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Independent Group on 12:48 - Feb 21 with 2898 views | No9 |
| Independent Group on 11:49 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
I'm really sorry but I have no idea how your post relates to anything in mine. It starts off about one thing, ends on another and ultimately doesn't disagree with mine.
SB |
Your post started-
"The Brexit clock is on the 11th hour and you're saying them swanning about Westminster in a member-less, policy-less, un-democratic neo-liberal wet dream is absolutely fine. "
I pointed out their policy is to stop a 'No deal' brexit which is what the ERG are behind & the PM is doing their biding
I don't see where you make that a point in any way | | | |
| Independent Group on 12:49 - Feb 21 with 2892 views | giant_stow |
| Independent Group on 12:37 - Feb 21 by ZedRodgers |
I take issue with them setting out that they would avoid a general election at all costs, even when staring down the barrel of a no deal Brexit in a few weeks time. How can their claims to oppose the government's position be taken seriously in this respect?
You said "I think there will be many people who are happy to have some more centralist MPs supporting their views" - Not exactly saying there's a chance you'll agree with them whenever they decide to say what those views are, but thanks for the clarification.
I still don't understand which views or beliefs you think this has opened a door for. You keep telling me there are some but all I can make out is a vague opposition to the Labour manifesto. What do you want? |
I think you might be missing the point a bit mr, or at least the point as I see it!
At this moment, its enough to be against something (the way the Labour and Tory leaderships are handling brexit). There's no need to formulate policies and clarify what the new group stands for - that opposition (which jez has never provided over brexit) is all I want right now - perhaps many others agree? Who knows...
. [Post edited 21 Feb 2019 12:51]
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| Independent Group on 12:50 - Feb 21 with 2890 views | StokieBlue |
| Independent Group on 12:48 - Feb 21 by No9 |
Your post started-
"The Brexit clock is on the 11th hour and you're saying them swanning about Westminster in a member-less, policy-less, un-democratic neo-liberal wet dream is absolutely fine. "
I pointed out their policy is to stop a 'No deal' brexit which is what the ERG are behind & the PM is doing their biding
I don't see where you make that a point in any way |
The ERG are behind stopping a no deal brexit?
I think you've gotten confused. My point was also correct, if they vote the same way they were going to when they were party members the fact they are independent or as he so lovely put it "neo-liberal wet dream" is irrelevant.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Independent Group on 12:51 - Feb 21 with 2887 views | No9 |
| Independent Group on 12:43 - Feb 21 by sparks |
Because the "we need a GE" argument, is entirely born of JCs self interest and doesnt actually address the issues. |
The arguement the '3 amigos' made was the Conservatoives are going off futher to the right and as soon as Mrs May is ditched a new POM will move them even further to the right - that is the point they were making
Obviously if they are correct how do you stop that apart from having a G.E. ? | | | |
| Independent Group on 12:54 - Feb 21 with 2871 views | StokieBlue |
| Independent Group on 12:37 - Feb 21 by ZedRodgers |
I take issue with them setting out that they would avoid a general election at all costs, even when staring down the barrel of a no deal Brexit in a few weeks time. How can their claims to oppose the government's position be taken seriously in this respect?
You said "I think there will be many people who are happy to have some more centralist MPs supporting their views" - Not exactly saying there's a chance you'll agree with them whenever they decide to say what those views are, but thanks for the clarification.
I still don't understand which views or beliefs you think this has opened a door for. You keep telling me there are some but all I can make out is a vague opposition to the Labour manifesto. What do you want? |
You essentially want me to write a manifesto so you can point out how it's not what the country needs and that the only way forward is what is set out in the Labour manifesto.
I have no inclination or need to do that.
I think it's perfectly fine to say that neither the Tory or Labour policies as they stand are something I would like and that I'm happy to wait an see if an independent group come up with something different and maybe shift some of the policies of the big two.
I do think you seem to be taking this whole split rather badly. Calling them a "member-less, policy-less, un-democratic neo-liberal wet dream" is hardly sensible debating.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Independent Group on 13:20 - Feb 21 with 2826 views | ZedRodgers |
| Independent Group on 12:43 - Feb 21 by itfcjoe |
You know how this all works, MPs get whipped into voting against their own views. |
Very weak argument. Have seen a lot of voting against the whip over Brexit.
Would still like to know what their view on Brexit is that you agree with, if that's all you have to offer. | |
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| Independent Group on 13:27 - Feb 21 with 2814 views | ZedRodgers |
| Independent Group on 12:54 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
You essentially want me to write a manifesto so you can point out how it's not what the country needs and that the only way forward is what is set out in the Labour manifesto.
I have no inclination or need to do that.
I think it's perfectly fine to say that neither the Tory or Labour policies as they stand are something I would like and that I'm happy to wait an see if an independent group come up with something different and maybe shift some of the policies of the big two.
I do think you seem to be taking this whole split rather badly. Calling them a "member-less, policy-less, un-democratic neo-liberal wet dream" is hardly sensible debating.
SB |
Of course you're perfectly entitled to say neither Tory or Labour policies as they stand are something you would like. I just wondered what it is about this group that you do like or approve of. Not asking for a full manifesto, just something more than a staunch opposition to Labour.
Praising their intentions without saying what those intentions are seems a fair way from a sensible debate to me too. | |
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| Independent Group on 13:32 - Feb 21 with 2806 views | ZedRodgers |
| Independent Group on 12:43 - Feb 21 by sparks |
Because the "we need a GE" argument, is entirely born of JCs self interest and doesnt actually address the issues. |
Right, so just let the government carry on then? That should help.
What are the issues and how should the issues be addressed in your opinion? I could name a few reasons beyond one person's self interest why a general election is needed. | |
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| Independent Group on 13:34 - Feb 21 with 2800 views | ZedRodgers |
| Independent Group on 12:49 - Feb 21 by giant_stow |
I think you might be missing the point a bit mr, or at least the point as I see it!
At this moment, its enough to be against something (the way the Labour and Tory leaderships are handling brexit). There's no need to formulate policies and clarify what the new group stands for - that opposition (which jez has never provided over brexit) is all I want right now - perhaps many others agree? Who knows...
. [Post edited 21 Feb 2019 12:51]
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What opposition?
What are they opposing and how are they going about opposing it? | |
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| Independent Group on 13:35 - Feb 21 with 2800 views | giant_stow |
| Independent Group on 13:32 - Feb 21 by ZedRodgers |
Right, so just let the government carry on then? That should help.
What are the issues and how should the issues be addressed in your opinion? I could name a few reasons beyond one person's self interest why a general election is needed. |
Letting the govt carry right on is exactly what Jez is doing over brexit, which is of course the biggest single issue for a long time. | |
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